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Are they married? What say ye?
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Post Are they married? What say ye? usefull
I performed a wedding ceremony a few weeks ago for a couple who have been coming to our church on an inconsistent basis for a couple of months. Normally I ask for the marriage license before the ceremony, but things were hectic and I forgot till after the ceremony. The bride told me they didn’t have them with them, I told her no problem since the reception was being held in the guest house where she lived; I figured I would get them there. I get to the reception and again ask for the license, this time she tells me they don’t have them with them, that they left them laying (lying?)on the county clerk’s counter when they paid for them the previous day. I told her that I had to have them mail back to the clerk's office within three days of the ceremony and to get them first thing Monday morning.

I haven’t heard from this couple since, I have called the lady a couple of times and she has yet to call me back. I called the courthouse this morning, explained to them what happened and asked what, if anything I needed to do. The clerk asked me their names and told me that they just pick up a new marriage license yesterday. She asked when I performed the ceremony and I told her 1/7/12 in which she replied, “They are not married and you will have to perform their vows again”.

I know what I am going to do, but wanted to see what your thoughts are on this situation.

They have been living together as husband and wife since 1/7/12. Are they married or are they in fornication?

I am looking for them to come to Bible study tonight, hand me the license and act as if nothing is wrong. Should I tell them what I know and what the clerk told me or just refuse to accept the license and tell them to find someone else to marry them? Again, I know what I am going to do, just want your thoughts

My wife and son moved everything off the platform to prepare for the wedding (I was at work, when they did this)and my son set everything back up after the wedding. He is also my soundman and ran the sound for the wedding. I had to take off work early to perform the ceremony and what did we get in return? A clumsy “Thanks” from the groom who also happens to be a pastor who resigned from his church a few months ago.

This was my last “Free” wedding, I have a contract that I will give to any couple that wants me to perform their ceremony and make sure I am paid as well as the church is reimbursed before I say, "Friends and family, we are gathered here..."


Last edited by usefull on 1/18/12 3:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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1/18/12 2:24 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
They're clearly not in fornication -- come on. They sound lazy and disorganized, but a piece of paper doesn't make you married or unmarried in the eyes of God. If the pastor that married me had forgotten to sign the license, would my wife and I have been fornicating on our wedding night?

I understand it's extremely important that marriage laws be properly followed and I would never consider a couple "married in the Lord" even if they had had a religious ceremony but had neglected to become legally married in the eyes of the law, but I think it's straining at gnats to seriously wonder if this couple is in fornication. Their apparently sinful lack of stewardship and organization is another matter. And if they refuse to make this right with haste, then that's another matter as well.

Let them know tonight they're not legally married and need to remedy that as soon as possible. Let them know that before you can sign the license they have to reperform their vows because they didn't obey the law, and you would be breaking the law to sign it as-is. Then take them into your kitchen and do it, then sign the license.
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1/18/12 2:32 pm


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Post bonnie knox
In order to marry them again, basically all you would have to do, I would think, is to have them restate their vows. It wouldn't require an audience of more than a couple of witnesses (to sign the license). It could be done with a minimal ado. It wouldn't require any pomp and circumstance or moving furniture or dressing up.
I think if I were you, I would tell them I'd be willing to do it after Bible study is over, but that you will require a fee of x amount (CASH ON THE BARRELHEAD if you want to see your money Wink ). If they agreed, I'd probably give a lecture on integrity and diligence and then go ahead and pronounce them man and wife.

I'm not sure if my sister is married to her husband or if I am: the pastor kept calling her "Bonnie" during the ceremony. Shocked

(I wrote this before I saw Dave's post - kinda scary that we're thinking alike. Wink )


Last edited by bonnie knox on 1/18/12 2:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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1/18/12 2:39 pm


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Post What Dave said... Clint Wills
It's simple and easy.

However, I can't STAND the argument "a piece of paper doesn't make you married in God's eyes". I have an aunt who used this EXACT same line on her third marriage. What it actually boils down to it that her husband (whom she vowed to for richer or poorer, for better or for worse) had a bunch of debt that she didn't want to be tied to. That told me that they were having a hard time keeping their hands to themselves and wanted everyone to have a warm-fuzzy feeling about it.

This is clearly different since they seem to be rectifying the situation. I was just venting about my thought on that statement.
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1/18/12 2:39 pm


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Post Re: What Dave said... Dave Dorsey
Clint Wills wrote:
This is clearly different since they seem to be rectifying the situation. I was just venting about my thought on that statement.

I agree with this 100%. I was very hesitant to use that phrase, but I think this is one of the extremely rare circumstances in which it's true. Because 99.999999% of instances in which that phrase is used, it is a load of garbage.

And if they fail to quickly rectify this situation, then they join the 99.999999%.
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1/18/12 2:40 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Wow what a mess. I don't do that many weddings, but thankfully I've never had this kind of problem come up. I always make it clear in the premarital sessions that it is their responsibility to get the license and to have it with them at the wedding, and that I can't perform the ceremony without having the license first.

They're not legally married, obviously. I'd say they definitely have to correct the situation post haste by bringing the license to you so you can re-do their vows.
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1/18/12 2:43 pm


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Post Lee Roy Brown
That is why I don’t perform any weddings for people outside of our church. If I don't know you we won't marry you. It's that simple and saves a lot of trouble. You would be surprised the number of people that call in who don't practice the faith but want a faith wedding. I just don't get it. Friendly Face
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1/18/12 2:54 pm


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Post Cojak
If they brought the license to me I would give them a quick, do you still feel the same as you did a couple days ago? If yes I'd date it today, sign and mail it in.

Say WHEW! and do better next time!!! Shocked
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1/18/12 3:20 pm


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Post Truman Smith
bonnie knox wrote:
In order to marry them again, basically all you would have to do, I would think, is to have them restate their vows. It wouldn't require an audience of more than a couple of witnesses (to sign the license). It could be done with a minimal ado. It wouldn't require any pomp and circumstance or moving furniture or dressing up.
I think if I were you, I would tell them I'd be willing to do it after Bible study is over, but that you will require a fee of x amount (CASH ON THE BARRELHEAD if you want to see your money Wink ). If they agreed, I'd probably give a lecture on integrity and diligence and then go ahead and pronounce them man and wife.

I'm not sure if my sister is married to her husband or if I am: the pastor kept calling her "Bonnie" during the ceremony. Shocked

(I wrote this before I saw Dave's post - kinda scary that we're thinking alike. Wink )


Bonnie was absolutely correct on this . When they show up for church tonight simply just do the weedding over. you could even shorten it by just asking if the vows that were made are still the desires and intentions of the man and then the woman . Then pronounce them husband and wife , Sign it and date it and then return it . I would not make a big issue out of it . Gopd Bless . T
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1/18/12 3:21 pm


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Post and one more thing (v) bonnie knox
I'd be just a little ticked off that they lied to me about having already gotten the license, so I'd take their license, but before I would sign it, I would make them listen to this. Very Happy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-aVqAGG4zg
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1/18/12 3:53 pm


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Post Re: and one more thing (v) Clint Wills
bonnie knox wrote:
I'd be just a little ticked off that they lied to me about having already gotten the license, so I'd take their license, but before I would sign it, I would make them listen to this. Very Happy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-aVqAGG4zg


It sounded to me like they had gotten a license, but lost it so they had to get a new one.
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1/18/12 4:45 pm


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Post Clint Wills
Lee Roy Brown wrote:
That is why I don’t perform any weddings for people outside of our church. If I don't know you we won't marry you. It's that simple and saves a lot of trouble. You would be surprised the number of people that call in who don't practice the faith but want a faith wedding. I just don't get it.


Why not? I don't understand some of the road blocks we put up to performing weddings. I can see requiring a FEW counseling sessions...personally, I would require 3 I think. I guess I'm not all that worried about my "success rate" when it comes to marriages. Whether or not a marriage lasts has no bearing on me or my ministry. I look at it as a chance to impact someone's life and be a part of one of the biggest days of their life.
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1/18/12 4:49 pm


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Post Qiuck answer Texicanii
No because they lied about it. Friendly Face
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1/18/12 5:08 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
Truman Smith wrote:
bonnie knox wrote:
In order to marry them again, basically all you would have to do, I would think, is to have them restate their vows. It wouldn't require an audience of more than a couple of witnesses (to sign the license). It could be done with a minimal ado. It wouldn't require any pomp and circumstance or moving furniture or dressing up.
I think if I were you, I would tell them I'd be willing to do it after Bible study is over, but that you will require a fee of x amount (CASH ON THE BARRELHEAD if you want to see your money Wink ). If they agreed, I'd probably give a lecture on integrity and diligence and then go ahead and pronounce them man and wife.

I'm not sure if my sister is married to her husband or if I am: the pastor kept calling her "Bonnie" during the ceremony. Shocked

(I wrote this before I saw Dave's post - kinda scary that we're thinking alike. Wink )


Bonnie was absolutely correct on this . When they show up for church tonight simply just do the weedding over. you could even shorten it by just asking if the vows that were made are still the desires and intentions of the man and then the woman . Then pronounce them husband and wife , Sign it and date it and then return it . I would not make a big issue out of it . Gopd Bless . T


this seems best - disorganized - but no biggie.

Sign it and move on.
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1/18/12 5:14 pm


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Post Re: and one more thing (v) bonnie knox
Clint Wills wrote:
bonnie knox wrote:
I'd be just a little ticked off that they lied to me about having already gotten the license, so I'd take their license, but before I would sign it, I would make them listen to this. Very Happy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-aVqAGG4zg


It sounded to me like they had gotten a license, but lost it so they had to get a new one.


No. The "wedding" (pomp and ceremony) was performed on 1/7/12, at which time they lied and said they had gotten the license on 1/6/12. A call to the clerk of court by usefull (on 1/18/12?) revealed that they had actually not gotten the license until (1/17/12?) after 1/7/12.
Even if they had lost their copy, the clerk would still have a record of when it was purchased.
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1/18/12 5:36 pm


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I'd explain to them what happened, and then just meet them some place private tell them to hold hands when I see them and say, "By the power invested in me..." "I now pronounce you man and wife. You may now kiss the bride", have them sign their part of the paperwork and turn it in. I wouldn't get the flower girls and bridesmaids together again, or even their parents.

Did the father give the bride away? Did the husband agree to take the woman as his wife? Is there any reason they shouldn't be wed (e.g. one of them married to someone else, incestuous relationship, etc.) If not, wouldn't they be considered married? I wouldn't be too concerned with the fornication issue. Marriage predated marriage licenses. I am assuming they weren't doing the wedding to con someone.

In some states, having a ceremony without a license would make them married.
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1/18/12 5:49 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
and say, "By the power invested in me..."


Please, don't, or I will have to put you on the lose/loose thread. It's by the power vested in me.
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1/18/12 5:51 pm


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Post Assuming they were biblically eligible ... Poimen
They ARE married. The clerk is misinformed. The certificate of marriage is for legal documenting purposes, and does not itself unite anyone in matrimony. It's paperwork. The covenant is what weds them, not the state, nor the church for that matter.
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1/18/12 5:58 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
The clerk is misinformed.


I daresay the clerk is well informed on the legal requirements, and I can't imagine why the pastor would not want to fulfill the legal requirements in this situation.
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1/18/12 7:28 pm


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Post Larry Wiley
They lied, nuff said.

I don't think I would say a word to them, they would only lie about it again.
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1/18/12 8:34 pm


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