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kmann1 |
| Some of these trivial arguments remind me of a video I saw recently by Francis Chan, where he talks about us as being pieces of clay trying to tell other pieces of clay who the potter is. God's thoughts and ways are higher than mine, and yours as well. I tend to believe in Jesus when he said "It is finished", I think he meant it. It is by faith in His work that we are saved. Now it is no longer I that live but Christ in me. Christ lived a sinless life, so now I should be able to do the same, but I do not. So I repent quite often. Does that mean that I continually get "born again"? Absolutely not. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 161
6/11/11 7:06 pm
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| Re: Interesting quote by Dr. Gause on forgiveness of sin |
kmann1 |
| spartanfan wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | In speaking of justification, distinguished Church of God theologian Dr. R. Hollis Gause makes the following noteworthy statement:
"The declaration of which we speak is a judgment concerning past sins and not future sins. Future sins will be forgiven as they are confessed and forsaken (1 Jn 1.9; 2.1,2; Prov. 28:13; Ps 66:18) but they are not already declared forgiven in the initial experience of justification.". R. Hollis Gause, PhD, _Living in the Spirit_ Revised and Expanded Edition 2009, page 49. |
Again, proven to be a great Theologian. Jesus offered His blood before the Father in Heaven so that all of our sins could be atoned for the moment we confess them. The word atone in regard to the Old Covenant means "to cover up." The word atone in regard to the work of the blood of His cross never means just to "cover up" but to completely eradicate. This is where the inclusionists err, saying that "our sins - past, present and future are already removed from everyone because His blood is on the Mercy Seat in Heaven so the job of the church isn't to save the world but to tell the people of the world they are already saved." Individually your sin is eradicated when you confess your sins(with full intent of complete repentance) and confess Jesus as your Savior and Lord believing in Him and His work and testimony.
This also explains why the fulfillment of the Messiah's redemption of Israel as a nation (and so all Israel shall be saved) is yet to come to pass. Not because His blood has not yet been offered for them but because they have not accepted the sacrifice and the Savior and allowed His blood to be the sacrifice for their sins by faith. They will do so at the end of the Tribulation and thus the Leviticus 23 prophecy of "The Day of Atonement" for the Jews will be fulfilled at that time.
Dr. Gause is "spot on" with his Theology. The Calvinist commentators stumble all over Hebrews 10:26 and take unbelievable liberty in interpreting it: "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," Dr. Gause can teach them a thing or two for sure. The sins that are eradicated are the ones that are confessed so if there is sinning after repentance then there must be confession after repentance to remove those latter sins. But praise God, "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Sins are removed from our "account" when they are confessed and repented of. Repentance is commanded by God for all and necessary for forgiveness of sins. |
Not really sure of where you are going with the Hebrews 10:26 reference in regards to Calvinists, but I think that it's easy to read someone who willfully sins after receiving the truth is not saved and outside of Christ's sacrifice there is nothing they can do for salvation. I really don't think that someone like Piper, Driscoll or Washer would really "stumble" over this verse. Most Reformers and Calvinists I know live daily lives of repentance. Is that not what we are called to do? |
Friendly Face
Posts: 161
6/11/11 7:30 pm
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kmann1 |
| Troy Hamby wrote: | | Rick Mack wrote: | | Troy Hamby wrote: | I lived the first 20 years of my life petrified that I was going to go to Hell because I forgot to confess every single sin in my life. This produced nothing but guilt and condemnation...then I read where there is NO condemnation in Christ Jesus! This completely liberated me and delivered me from this crazy belief that if I lived a life devoted to Christ but died w/one unconfessed sin, I would go to Hell...RIDICULOUS!
Of course I believe that sin needs to be confessed and we need to repent but I have come to think this is more for our benefit and not God's. I just can't picture God as some "sin accountant" in Heaven with the books out, recording and erasing every time we sin..."oh he's in now, oh wait, he just cussed, he's out until he asks forgiveness". Come on! The grace and mercy of God is bigger and more powerful than our feeble attempts to live a sinless life. |
I think it is more of a process whereby we refuse to hear the voice of Christ by the Holy Spirit when he convicts of sin. We refuse to repent and our heart becomes hardened, what is left then, but the same fate of those who refused in the scripture. Hebrews 3:7-9 "Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear my voice harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: when your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years." Wherfore I was grieved... a forty year process led to a grieving of God, no promised land, no Canaan. So we should take heed as verse 13 of Heb. 3 says lest we be hardened through deceitfulness of sin... I believe every time we sin the Spirit convicts, but do we hear, that is, do we respond to His voice? |
i could agree with that...it's this notion that 1 sin can send us to Hell that is crazy to me. |
Troy I can completely relate to your fears you expressed growing up. I dealt with the same fears and they were not exposed till I read Romans for myself. Thank God grace is by faith. Thank God that Abraham was credited righteous by his faith. But thank God even more that he chose me. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 161
6/11/11 7:35 pm
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| Troy and Kmann1 |
Cojak |
| Troy Hamby wrote: | I lived the first 20 years of my life petrified that I was going to go to Hell because I forgot to confess every single sin in my life. This produced nothing but guilt and condemnation...then I read where there is NO condemnation in Christ Jesus! This completely liberated me and delivered me from this crazy belief that if I lived a life devoted to Christ but died w/one unconfessed sin, I would go to Hell...RIDICULOUS!
Of course I believe that sin needs to be confessed and we need to repent but I have come to think this is more for our benefit and not God's. I just can't picture God as some "sin accountant" in Heaven with the books out, recording and erasing every time we sin..."oh he's in now, oh wait, he just cussed, he's out until he asks forgiveness". Come on! The grace and mercy of God is bigger and more powerful than our feeble attempts to live a sinless life. |
I have read this entire post and comments. The quote above is how many COG children were raised. I know the mind of God is much higher than mine, I don't try to explain "This is God's view", just how I feel as a child of God. He is a good Father the scripture says. so I trust that.
Kmann1 makes a great point with the narration of pieces of clay and the Potter.
LC is pretty Brash, however his view is right, in My opinion.
For the life of me I have been reading most of the posts on Acts for years now, and I have NEVER ENCOUNTERED A COG PREACHER OR MEMBER WHO ADVOCATED THAT WE COULD SIN ALL WE WANT OR PRACTICE SIN. EVERYONE SAYS WE MUST CONFESS OUR SINS.
I am amazed at folks who jump to ridiculous conclusions such as:
HE SAID IT IS NO SIN TO DRINK ALCOHOL, HE FAVORS DRUNK DRIVERS!
We see folks who ASK, If I sin and do not confess it immediately do I go to Hell? Someone says in my opinion NO!, SO ALL OF A SUDDEN THE PERSON BELIEVES IN SIN AS MUCH AS YOU LIKE AND GO TO HEAVEN.
Brothers and Sisters sometimes we appear crazy to family and the world, where did Bro. Gause say you had your name removed from the BOOK for that one unconfessed sin?
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
6/11/11 8:19 pm
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| Re: Troy and Kmann1 |
michaelb |
| Cojak wrote: | | where did Bro. Gause say you had your name removed from the BOOK for that one unconfessed sin? |
That little goodie came from me. No, Gause didn't say it, but we all know that a lot of people believe it. And it seemed that Wyatt was headed in that direction. I was only taking the argument, not necessarily Gause's quote, to its natural conclusion to show its absurdity. Like many others here, I was instilled with that fear when I was a kid and spent too many years in bondage to that lie. I hate to see it propagated. No, none of us believe we are free to sin all we want, but there are still many who believe we are all one sin away from hell. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 335
6/11/11 10:13 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
The Bible nowhere indicates that we can "accidentally" lose our salvation and be damned. It is such ridiculous caricaturizations as this that Lord Chancellor makes that only serve to show his incredible degree of ignorance regarding Holiness teaching. No significant Holiness theologian such as Wesley, Fletcher, Finney, Mahan, (or for that matter Dr. Gause) ever state or imply that salvation can be lost by accident or by a virtual flip of the coin. The simple fact that it is not accidental things (uncontrollable mistakes due to human finitude) that condemn anyone.
That being said, the denial that one willful sin/work of the flesh (of which the Apostle Paul says they who practice such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God) will damn one's soul unless it is repented of reveals a remarkable degree of presumption.
Do we really think that because we are Christians, that the wages of sin (not mistakes, but SIN) are no longer death for us? If it is true that to whom much is given much is required, it then follows that as Christians we are even more worthy of condemnation if we sin than we were before we received the light of God's truth.
Do we really think we can, for example, commit murder, adultery, steal, or do any of the works of the flesh which Paul directly states disqualify one from inheriting the kingdom of God, and yet somehow still expect to actually inherit that kingdom without truly repenting and being cleansed of them?
If we do think we can do so, then 'once saved, always saved' is in fact what we believe, no matter how much we may try to deny it.
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
6/12/11 12:21 am
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| Re: One of these days when I have time |
Quiet Wyatt |
| Rafael D Martinez wrote: | I would LOVE to be able to post online excerpts of Dr. Gause's teaching I have recordings of. An entire year's worth ..
Dr. Gause agreed to teach systematic theology as a Lee class for the one year Dr. Bowdle was on sabbatical back in the 1980's, the Lee instructor who normally covers the subject. Being a member of those who'd registered for the class the year before, I had no idea that Lee and the seminary would do this.
It was the highlight of my Lee years. Sitting under Dr. Gause speaking about all the things we did and hearing his brilliant exposition of Christian doctrine as well as his razor sharp dry wit and often completely amazing anecdotes on Church of God history and practice was easily worth every penny of my student loans I paid off in 2001.
And I recorded every single class and didn't erase a single tape. It's all still intact. I need to check those and see if they're ok. |
Rafael,
I would be very much interested in getting a copy of those recordings if possible.
Thanks! |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
6/12/11 12:25 am
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| Do you know what it is? |
spartanfan |
| Lord Chancellor wrote: | | I'm thankful that my salvation is by faith and not by magic incantations and happenstance. |
Most people don't even know what "faith" is.
Last edited by spartanfan on 6/12/11 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3638
6/12/11 6:19 am
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bradfreeman |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Do we really think that because we are Christians, that the wages of sin (not mistakes, but SIN) are no longer death for us? |
I believe that Christians are no longer under condemnation (the sentence of death). We walk in the last have of Romans 6:23...the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Christians are in a different condition and relationship with God than the unsaved. We have stepped into and accepted the atoning work of Christ...all of it! All of our sins have been dealt with. If we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:7)
When the lost man sins, it simply adds to the pile of sin that already has him/her under the sentence of death. When the believer sins, he finds his loving Father disciplining him so that he can become a partaker of God's holiness...not so that he can get back into the family and become a son again. (Heb. 12)
I would like to hear more about Gause position on this issue. I would certainly hope it is built upon more than 1 NT verse of scripture. I could, and just did, offer more than 1 verse in support of a more secure view of salvation. Eternally secure? Only if our faith doesn't fail. Holiness? Of course. Because of Him, not us.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
6/12/11 7:30 am
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Cojak |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Do we really think that because we are Christians, that the wages of sin (not mistakes, but SIN) are no longer death for us? |
I believe that Christians are no longer under condemnation (the sentence of death). We walk in the last have of Romans 6:23...the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Christians are in a different condition and relationship with God than the unsaved. We have stepped into and accepted the atoning work of Christ...all of it! All of our sins have been dealt with. If we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:7)
When the lost man sins, it simply adds to the pile of sin that already has him/her under the sentence of death. When the believer sins, he finds his loving Father disciplining him so that he can become a partaker of God's holiness...not so that he can get back into the family and become a son again. (Heb. 12)
I would like to hear more about Gause position on this issue. I would certainly hope it is built upon more than 1 NT verse of scripture. I could, and just did, offer more than 1 verse in support of a more secure view of salvation. Eternally secure? Only if our faith doesn't fail. Holiness? Of course. Because of Him, not us. |
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
6/12/11 2:29 pm
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Randy Johnson |
[quote="Cojak"] | bradfreeman wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Do we really think that because we are Christians, that the wages of sin (not mistakes, but SIN) are no longer death for us? |
I believe that Christians are no longer under condemnation (the sentence of death). We walk in the last have of Romans 6:23...the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. |
We are not under condemnation if we walk in the Spirit and do not walk in the flesh. If we walk in the Spirit, God does discipline us as sons, as you explain further.
However, if we just depend on agreement to some propositional statements concerning the identity and work of Jesus Christ, and call that "faith", and depend on that kind of faith to save us, while we continue to walk in the flesh and sin willfully, we are deceiving ourselves and are lost.
As you say here, "If we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:7) However, genuine faith is practiced by walking in the light.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5431
6/14/11 6:12 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Randy Johnson wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Do we really think that because we are Christians, that the wages of sin (not mistakes, but SIN) are no longer death for us? |
I believe that Christians are no longer under condemnation (the sentence of death). We walk in the last have of Romans 6:23...the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. |
We are not under condemnation if we walk in the Spirit and do not walk in the flesh. If we walk in the Spirit, God does discipline us as sons, as you explain further.
However, if we just depend on agreement to some propositional statements concerning the identity and work of Jesus Christ, and call that "faith", and depend on that kind of faith to save us, while we continue to walk in the flesh and sin willfully, we are deceiving ourselves and are lost.
As you say here, "If we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:7) However, genuine faith is practiced by walking in the light. |
Walking in the light is not walking in perfection. It is coming out of the shadows where your life is manifest. It is admitting you have sin. It is walking in honesty, humility and truth. 1 John 1 makes this clear. We have (not had) sin. He has declared us righteous and made us clean because of our faith in Him, not because we do 100 push-ups or run 5 laps around the church.
Every example of faith given in Hebrews 11 and, most importantly Abraham, showed their faith by the action they took because of what they believed. There's was a positive movement that demonstrated their faith. There is no analysis of or accounting for their flaws...their many flaws--lying Abraham, the harlot Rahab, etc. etc. It wasn't works that made them righteous, it was faith. The action they took simply proved that they believed.
We, who have believed in our hearts and confessed with our mouths, are saved by faith...not works. It is Jesus' works that did it...not ours.
Incidentally, the most accurate NT translations omit that portion of Romans 8:1 that you quoted above "if we walk in the Spirit and do not walk in the flesh".
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
6/14/11 10:50 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Though it is true the second portion in the KJV of Rom 8:1 is not found in the best manuscripts, the very same idea is expounded on by Paul in the ensuing verses, that the mind set on the flesh is death, cannot please God, and if we live according to the flesh we will die. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
6/15/11 9:11 am
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