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 The FL church the COG GO was saved in was sold and spent |
Travis Johnson |
In 2004/5, the West Miami COG was sold out from under a functioning COG church. Pastor Fred Rumler and his people had no idea this happened. The state office secretly changed the trustees and accepted a $1.1 million offer on the property without informing the local church. This property is merely blocks outside of Coral Gables, some of the most expensive property in the USA. We sold a slightly larger building in Homestead, 26 miles south of Coral Gables/West Miami for $3.2 million. The state office gave away this property.
Then, the FL Evangelism Director met with the Miami-Dade and Broward county pastors and assured us that 100% of those funds would go back into church planting in Miami-Dade. I later had a pastor in the area call me and tell me to make a request for some of those funds. NO WAY! It was hush money because the state office completely botched it up and was trying to cover the thing up and make the controversy go away. The money was doled out...gone. And, the state office got sued and settled.
To add insult to injury, this past summer I had coffee with Raymond Culpepper. He explained to me that this is the very church he was saved in. He repeated that while preaching in the 2010 General Assembly.
There are people in this state who enabled this kind of behavior. And, suddenly they're concerned that we aren't cutting our expenses aggressively enough. Bull. They enabled our organizational sins of the past and were silent when that nonsense was going on.
We have a responsible leader getting our stuff in order and making painful decisions. That's what you have to do when you pile years of loose spending up. The time for crying is over. Now, we just need to clean up the mess and try to get at mission again...isn't a time for the enablers of past indiscretions to sharpen their political knives and do battle. They ought to be repenting for putting us in this situation. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
3/10/11 10:34 pm
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Cojak |
partial Qoute:
We have a responsible leader getting our stuff in order and making painful decisions. That's what you have to do when you pile years of loose spending up. The time for crying is over. Now, we just need to clean up the mess and try to get at mission again...isn't a time for the enablers of past indiscretions to sharpen their political knives and do battle. They ought to be repenting for putting us in this situation.
End Quote....
Amen!
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24285
3/10/11 10:54 pm
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| Travis |
C. Chris Moody |
| Tom it isn't wheaties. I am convinced the new celebrity apprentice is in homestead and Travis ran into Jose Canseco and he juiced Travis with roids. |
Belt Jerker
Posts: 511
3/10/11 11:37 pm
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Travis Johnson |
Actually, it was the eggs benedict Sterbens cheffed up for me on his farm last week.
Truthfully, Chris, you know me. I'll fight if I have to. I'll go take a whoopin' from somebody if I have to (done that plenty of times...been whooped by some big jokers). I'll pick a fight if I need to (I actually enjoy it)...but, definitely not going to sit around while we pretend to forget how we got into this mess...so some of the disfunction enablers can whisper attack the guy who is righting the situation. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
3/10/11 11:57 pm
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Rafael D Martinez |
| Cojak wrote: | partial Qoute:
We have a responsible leader getting our stuff in order and making painful decisions. That's what you have to do when you pile years of loose spending up. The time for crying is over. Now, we just need to clean up the mess and try to get at mission again...isn't a time for the enablers of past indiscretions to sharpen their political knives and do battle. They ought to be repenting for putting us in this situation.
End Quote....
Amen! |
_________________
www.spiritwatch.org
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16
These are trying times. Everyone's trying something and getting caught. The Church Lady, 1987 |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7766
3/11/11 6:47 am
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Larry Wiley |
| Quote: | In 2004/5, the West Miami COG was sold out from under a functioning COG church. Pastor Fred Rumler and his people had no idea this happened. The state office secretly changed the trustees and accepted a $1.1 million offer on the property without informing the local church. This property is merely blocks outside of Coral Gables, some of the most expensive property in the USA. We sold a slightly larger building in Homestead, 26 miles south of Coral Gables/West Miami for $3.2 million. The state office gave away this property.
Then, the FL Evangelism Director met with the Miami-Dade and Broward county pastors and assured us that 100% of those funds would go back into church planting in Miami-Dade. I later had a pastor in the area call me and tell me to make a request for some of those funds. NO WAY! It was hush money because the state office completely botched it up and was trying to cover the thing up and make the controversy go away. The money was doled out...gone. And, the state office got sued and settled. |
INTEGRITY?
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Larry Wiley |
Acts Mod
Posts: 5298
3/11/11 10:42 am
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| Maybe part of being an AB... |
Clint Wills |
| Should be to read Larry Burkett and Dave Ramsey like crazy. They are both HUGE on living on less than you make...something our organization could benefit from no doubt. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5161
3/11/11 3:46 pm
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FellowSoldier |
I just don't think the Lord will bless the COG as long as this... ah lets see... what to call it?... indiscretion?... oversight?... mistake?... maybe shortcoming?... how about SIN? Yep! I think that is what you have to call it, pure old SIN.
Doug Small preached at the TN prayer conference this year and I think what he said is applicable to this situation. He said, as we allow sin to remain, God begins to slowly withdraw his presence, so slowly that we are not even aware.
I just want to pose a question or two. Is this sin? and if so, could it be possible the problems we are having in our financial house is God slowly withdrawing His blessings? and finally, will we ever man up and do what is right and repent?
BTW who authorized this sale? I think if I were a member of that local congregation I would have to visit with a lawyer and see what my options are. What is to be done with this congregation now?
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Your Fellow Soldier |
Friendly Face
Posts: 403
3/12/11 6:30 pm
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Travis Johnson |
| FellowSoldier wrote: | | I think if I were a member of that local congregation I would have to visit with a lawyer and see what my options are. What is to be done with this congregation now? |
That happened. There was a settlement. The church was disbanded.
If we want this kind of stuff to stop, we have to drag ALL of these activites out into the sunlight to be scrutinized. There's no reason for us to continue to operate in secret, especially with our track record of this kind of thing (this isn't an isolated activity).
We must protect ourselves from ourselves. We must honor mission more than anything else. NEEDED STEPS:
-Publish minutes with voting records of ALL elected boards (state, national, and international). Signatures and decisions made this happen. It ought to be known going forward who authorizes these kinds of activities. Just decisions will answer for themselves. Inequitable decisions won't.
-Close the spigot. No more cannibalizing properties for admin expenses. The GA spoke clearly to this issue. There's nothing else we can mandate. We just have to honor our mandates and our words. So, accountability is key.
-Even moreso is electing leaders who will be faithful with the delegated authority placed on them...not merely rubber stamp whatever the groupthink is. Principles that filter through Scripture, mission, and the Minutes prior to being filtered through expediency, comfort, or affirmation. We've got to elect leaders who affirm the right things. And, where we have leaders on board who affirm the wrong things, we need to remove them...which won't be easy. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
3/12/11 9:10 pm
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| Crackin' Me Up... |
spartanfan |
Okay Travis... deleted
Last edited by spartanfan on 3/13/11 7:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3638
3/13/11 7:05 am
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| Crackin' Me Up... |
spartanfan |
| Okay Travis...... not even going into the substance of the remarks because I have no knowledge of the events or "dog in this hunt", I just have to say that the mere title you chose is crackin' me up! The church that the GO was saved in..... is an appeal to emotion and not substance. I love the GO as much as anyone else here probably but should that make the place an untouchable shrine? And coming from you of all people who declares that mission trumps nostalgia or previous practices makes this all the more hilarious. The church the GO was saved in - Oh no! Your appeal to the emotional side of the issue is not consistent with your MO. But thanks for the laugh - it's great to see that we are not above what we so often criticize. I've got to go, I have to preach in a church where a former GO started his pastoral ministry (may it forever stand as a reminder in spite of being surrounded now by light industrial buildings!) |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3638
3/13/11 7:07 am
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| Re: Crackin' Me Up... |
Travis Johnson |
| spartanfan wrote: | | Your appeal to the emotional side of the issue is not consistent with your MO. |
I too thought it quite unusual that you seem to be operating outside your MO by supporting the liquidation of functioning, debt-free properties without the knowledge of the local church and reckless distribution of said monies.
But, with that said, I agree with you and thought it was quite sensational and even emotional when the Presiding Bishop shared that with me. Facts is facts though.
Now, why does it matter? Because, that is the reality we've functioned under. A preferred future is being painted organizationally. And, as we're into the rub and there pushback results from good organizational change, we ought to be reminded of what our reality is so we can support redemptive actions posture towards mission and not status quo. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
3/13/11 8:04 am
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NPS39 |
The General Assembly being the highest governing body in our movement isn't always a reality. We come together, vote things in and vote things out, only to see that things we voted down become as much of a reality as the things we voted down. What tends to happen is if it's an item of the agenda that they really want to happen, it does.
Example: The CAMS program was presented several years ago, they wanted it to become mandatory, it was voted down, we already had MIP. Fast forward a short time, it is now mandatory to go through CAMS before you go through MIP. Here's how you do it, let the state office mandate it, and then you enter into a vicious circle of they said, they said.
The same is true of property sales and the spending of mandated funds, there is always a loop hole, a back door, and until we find and close them, this stuff will keep happening. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1458
3/13/11 8:58 am
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| Re: Crackin' Me Up... |
spartanfan |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | | spartanfan wrote: | | Your appeal to the emotional side of the issue is not consistent with your MO. |
I too thought it quite unusual that you seem to be operating outside your MO by supporting the liquidation of functioning, debt-free properties without the knowledge of the local church and reckless distribution of said monies.
But, with that said, I agree with you and thought it was quite sensational and even emotional when the Presiding Bishop shared that with me. Facts is facts though.
Now, why does it matter? Because, that is the reality we've functioned under. A preferred future is being painted organizationally. And, as we're into the rub and there pushback results from good organizational change, we ought to be reminded of what our reality is so we can support redemptive actions posture towards mission and not status quo. |
Read my post friend. I am not supporting at all anything that happened, just laughing a little at the sensationalism of "the GO was saved there." It just doesn't seem like you to appeal to the nostalgia, as if it should be considered in the decision. I mean, somebody important got saved in every church that was sold. I was not saying yea or nay, just that it tickled me for you to reference it that way. Forgive me.  |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3638
3/13/11 2:22 pm
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FellowSoldier |
| NPS39 wrote: | The General Assembly being the highest governing body in our movement isn't always a reality.
The same is true of property sales and the spending of mandated funds, there is always a loop hole, a back door, and until we find and close them, this stuff will keep happening. |
Well said, but I still have to ask the obvious and frustrating question: How can you make people accountable in the COG other than relying on their personal integrity? Which, sad to say and to our shame, HAS NOT WORKED so far.
You also mention the sale of property, which we adressed this assembly, and mandated monies from sold properties be used for church planting. I would tell you boys in Florida to watch closely to see where the funds are spent, but I dare say, you can't watch what you are not allowed to see.
This is a sad day in our church, I'm not sure if I'm mad, dissapointed, discouraged, or just about over it. I will say this if it matters to anyone: recently we had a meeting in our state, and an official was speaking, and I just stayed home. I simply didn't want to hear them preach, if they are not going to live anything. Was I wrong? Probably, but I don't think I was alone in my thinking.
At this point all I know to do is pray and ask God to forgive my rotten attitude and help our church finds it's way back to him.
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Your Fellow Soldier |
Friendly Face
Posts: 403
3/13/11 2:25 pm
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| Re: Crackin' Me Up... |
Travis Johnson |
| spartanfan wrote: | | Forgive me. |
Thine sins are absolved. Go and sin no more. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
3/13/11 3:09 pm
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| General Assembly is a joke |
Bowtat |
We all know how this works... AB rule the state and hide behind the state council. Then before anyone can understand what is going on... they move on. Property sales take time and planing; then the dispersant of funds is an excision first, planning second venture in the COG. We learned this from the publishing house and almost from the home for children. These men can run a thousands of dollar income companies (local church), but millions is over their head.
If we really want to see change two words: Open accounting. post all finical transitions on line or give all state ministers access to the online banking viewers option. We would see the end of AB writing honorariums for going to their own events.
A boy can dream. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 302
3/15/11 10:22 am
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sheepdogandy |
Or you can just dissolve the Centralized government that creates these messes in the first place.
Implement Congregational (NT) government with State and International Cooperative structures.
Example: Southeastern Youth Conference in Enterprise, AL sponsored by an Independent Pentecostal Congregation.
Supported and attended by Indies, C/G, A/G and others.
Tremendous success!
Not an Overseer in sight. 
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7307
3/15/11 12:06 pm
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sonofasoldier |
| sheepdogandy wrote: | Or you can just dissolve the Centralized government that creates these messes in the first place.
Implement Congregational (NT) government with State and International Cooperative structures.
Example: Southeastern Youth Conference in Enterprise, AL sponsored by an Independent Pentecostal Congregation.
Supported and attended by Indies, C/G, A/G and others.
Tremendous success!
Not an Overseer in sight. |
What are your thoughts and opinions of the CG? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 593
3/17/11 2:24 pm
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SouthFloridaman |
| This seems interesting as well April may |
Friendly Face
Posts: 358
7/19/18 12:41 pm
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