 |
Actscelerate.com
Open Any Time -- Day or Night
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Message |
Author |
 |
MFWKC |
| Bro Bob wrote: | I missed the part where FGminister says those who do not hear get a pass. I thought he was saying they would be judged in accordance with what they did know and should have known. He even mentioned the various degrees of punishment.
Certainly, those of us who have met Christ cannot avoid obeying his command to go and make disciples. We do not have the option of not telling people.
I may have missed Tom's point. But what I DID take from my brief study was that there was a standard God had in place for the Amorites, not the same as for the Israelites, that he was holding them to and to which they would be judged. Whether I am in step with Tom or not, do you see what I think I am seeing? And if so, do you not find it relevant to the question of this thread? |
Okay I have read FG Ministers post again and it seemed to reference only being judged on what we know. Did he mean a "nicer" level of hell for those who hadn't heard or a "lower" level of Heaven? I am not sure if he ever made it clear.
I agree with being judged on what we know, but Romans 1 says that God has made himself known.
I guess I believe those who have believed and pursued God will have the Gospel come to them.
Let me give Tom's post another pass before I say anything else about that. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 707
12/31/10 3:02 pm
|
|
|
|  |
 |
|
|
| |
MFWKC |
Bro Bob,
I see it now.
i am pretty slow some times.
I started to make the point at one time about the people from the Old Testament that God called wicked just cause they were not his people. Seems "unfair" that people who didn't know the prophecies or the law were judged so unfairly.
If I understand correctly, these people who rejected God prior to Calvary, were not among those who Jesus spoke to and brought out with his resurrection. That is probably another can of worms.
I took from Tom's post that there is already biblical example of God Judging people based on something "they didn't know". In reality they should have know (Romans 1), but they rejected God.
Please tell me how I did? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 707
12/31/10 3:19 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Bro Bob |
You make me grin. I am certainly not the judge of how you did! I am chewing on this myself, with a lot of gratitude that I am not required to know these deep answers. Hopefully Tom will drop back by and let us both know how we are doing.
Romans 1 is relevant twice in my mind.
| Quote: |
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: |
and:
| Quote: | 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. |
Sodom and Gomorrah both knew they were sinning and both knew the eternal price. Nineveh also knew, but when confronted by a reluctantly obedient preacher, repented and was spared. (Until they again turned away.)
TO whom much is given, much is required.
Before the law sin was, but sin is not imputed unto man where there is no law.
All these things are matters that can only be weighed by one being, and we don't qualify. Satans punishment is severe. As is the punishment of those who will claim they did wonderful things in his name, yet he will call them workers of iniquity.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a JUST God.
I do now, and will then, ask for his mercy on me. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3944
12/31/10 3:31 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
MFWKC |
I agree.
Hopefully he will respond. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 707
12/31/10 3:55 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| if ignorance saves then Christ is/was irrelevant |
Poimen |
Sorry I haven't been more active in this and other threads the last couple days. I've wanted to be, but my family has been battling seasonal sickness for over a week now. My apologies for those Ive so far ignored. I'm not sure if it's even plausible to go back and try to respond to everything I missed or would like to reply to at this point. So for now I'd just lack to add another though to the discussion.
The idea of gospel ignorance excusing us for our sins in the eyes of God contradicts the apostolic declaration "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent" (Acts 17:30).
Furthermore, if gospel ignorance were sufficient to save men, Christ need not die. God could have saved the whole world simply by not sending His Son, nor enlightening sinners of their need for the Savior. The premise then fails at the most basic or fundamental of levels. It contradicts and invalidates the necessity of Christ's coming & sacrificial offering of Himself for the redemption of men.
Personally, I wish the universalist was right -- everybody is ultimately saved. I don't want anyone to go to hell. But, regardless of my desire for all to go to heaven, and my lack of ability to fully understand such matters, I cannot but accept what the Scripture says. We must let God be true and all else liars, even when we don't understand why or how something is just. We must have faith in God.
_________________
Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
1/1/11 5:45 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: if ignorance saves then Christ is/was irrelevant |
bradfreeman |
| Poimen wrote: | | The idea of gospel ignorance excusing us for our sins in the eyes of God contradicts the apostolic declaration "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent" (Acts 17:30). |
I must have missed the universalist posts. Ignorance doesn't save...Jesus does. I would certainly disagree with anyone to advocates a way other than Jesus.
But for those who do not ever hear the "command" to repent, perhaps a loving and merciful God provides an opportunity to hear the command and avail themselves of the atoning work of Jesus.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
1/1/11 11:19 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: I agree with much of what you say.... |
Wimauma |
| MFWKC wrote: |
Romans 2:12 still settles this to me. Perish is not physical death, but spiritual death. Seperation from a Holy God.
|
I tried to read through the whole thread diligently, but have to admit I didn't read every word or completely understand all the words I did read...
So, please clarify for me how this one verse, separate from the rest of Romans 2 is all you need?
Romans 2: 12)For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13)For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14)For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15)They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16)on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
_________________
I used to be sweet tea and boiled peanuts. Now I'm not. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 771
1/1/11 7:33 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Wimauma |
I think it's a cop out to say that we don't need missionaries if we don't think there is another way for those that haven't literally heard the name of Jesus to get to know Jesus. If that is the case then we need to get rid of all the pastors and preachers because once a person is saved and filled with the Holy Spirit they have everything they need to be comforted, healed, taught, guided, nourished...
_________________
I used to be sweet tea and boiled peanuts. Now I'm not. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 771
1/1/11 7:38 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: I agree with much of what you say.... |
Randy Johnson |
| Wimauma wrote: | | MFWKC wrote: |
Romans 2:12 still settles this to me. Perish is not physical death, but spiritual death. Seperation from a Holy God.
|
I tried to read through the whole thread diligently, but have to admit I didn't read every word or completely understand all the words I did read...
So, please clarify for me how this one verse, separate from the rest of Romans 2 is all you need?
Romans 2: 12)For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13)For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14)For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15)They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16)on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. |
To me it says that God is not limited to our religious filter in order to deal with people in the earth.
To put Romans 2 in perspective you have to understand that Paul was arguing with other Jews who were taking pride in their ethnic heritage as Jews and the fact that they had the Law and the Gentiles didn't. They thought that simply the fact that they were Jews and had the Law (whether they obeyed it or not) gave them an advantage over the Gentiles. They weren't concerned with the keeping of the Law, just simply the fact that they were Jews and God had given it to them and not the rest of the world. This was the attitude that Paul was addressing in Romans 2.
Romans 2:14-15 reveals that God can work in peoples' lives outside the framework of religious institutions. What would cause a Gentile (looking at this from a Jewish perspective of superiority) to do by nature the things required by the Law? Wouldn't it be the Spirit of God bringing conviction to that Gentile's conscience so that they would have to choose whether or not to follow their conscience? Now conviction certainly isn't salvation, it is just conviction, but conviction can prepare the heart to receive salvation.
No one has been arguing here that people's sins will be excused because they were ignorant of the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is not the argument. The argument is that somehow God will deal mercifully yet justly with those who never had an opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5431
1/2/11 7:56 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: I agree with much of what you say.... |
caseyleejones |
| Randy Johnson wrote: | | Wimauma wrote: | | MFWKC wrote: |
Romans 2:12 still settles this to me. Perish is not physical death, but spiritual death. Seperation from a Holy God.
|
I tried to read through the whole thread diligently, but have to admit I didn't read every word or completely understand all the words I did read...
So, please clarify for me how this one verse, separate from the rest of Romans 2 is all you need?
Romans 2: 12)For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13)For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14)For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15)They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16)on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. |
To me it says that God is not limited to our religious filter in order to deal with people in the earth.
To put Romans 2 in perspective you have to understand that Paul was arguing with other Jews who were taking pride in their ethnic heritage as Jews and the fact that they had the Law and the Gentiles didn't. They thought that simply the fact that they were Jews and had the Law (whether they obeyed it or not) gave them an advantage over the Gentiles. They weren't concerned with the keeping of the Law, just simply the fact that they were Jews and God had given it to them and not the rest of the world. This was the attitude that Paul was addressing in Romans 2.
Romans 2:14-15 reveals that God can work in peoples' lives outside the framework of religious institutions. What would cause a Gentile (looking at this from a Jewish perspective of superiority) to do by nature the things required by the Law? Wouldn't it be the Spirit of God bringing conviction to that Gentile's conscience so that they would have to choose whether or not to follow their conscience? Now conviction certainly isn't salvation, it is just conviction, but conviction can prepare the heart to receive salvation.
No one has been arguing here that people's sins will be excused because they were ignorant of the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is not the argument. The argument is that somehow God will deal mercifully yet justly with those who never had an opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel. |
Randy, I think you summed up my thinking.
As to another post, ...I think yours....., it is tough to grasp the infinite mind of God with a finite mind.
It seems that there are givens....
We are to preach the gospel
Those who reject Jesus are separated from God |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11798
1/2/11 5:48 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Wimauma |
To be clear. I fall firmly on the side that believes that God would not create a system that only allows for those that specifically hear the message of salvation through Christ to make it to heaven.
My point about Romans 2 is that if 2:12 is going to be used as a basis for one's decision, I don't understand how it can be separated from the verses that follow when making the decision.
_________________
I used to be sweet tea and boiled peanuts. Now I'm not. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 771
1/2/11 6:10 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
MFWKC |
Again in short I read "perish" to mean spiritual.
Does any believe that the Rich Man in Luke 16 got a second chance?
I guess I think sin was always sin to God. Pre-Law and Post Calvary.
Sin will seperate you from God scripturally, Right? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 707
1/2/11 8:04 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
bonnie knox |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | MFWKC wrote: |
I took from Tom's post that there is already biblical example of God Judging people based on something "they didn't know". In reality they should have know (Romans 1), but they rejected God.
Please tell me how I did? |
I do think the Gen 15/Amorite issue is a worthy consideration unto seeing the heart of God in this issue. In verse 16 God speaks through foreknowledge that "their iniquity is not yet complete." Clearly God is withholding judgment until "a point." What is that point? I think we can conclude that there was some expression of behavior on the part of the Amorites that did warrant God's punishment/judgment...and God was waiting until such time as they would reach that "point."
Apparent Principle: If God states that he feels there are a group of people whom He cannot punish/destroy based on His judgment of their behavior, then apparently there is some measure of behavior (from a group of people who neither know Him or worship Him) other than "straight-up" worship of God that exempts them from punishment. |
But can you project that principle onto eternal destination?
When God dealt with Israel, He used other nations to punish Israel. Then He would punish the nation that had fought against Israel. He had a timing for what He did. I think it would be too simplistic to attribute God's timing to lines crossed by human behavior although if you took this reference in isolation, you could make that case.
The reference to the Amorites is interesting. I've heard that reference used to justify the teaching on generational curses (with an emphasis on the supposed difference between iniquities and transgressions). I don't know if there is enough info there to substantiate that - I kinda doubt it. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
1/3/11 10:03 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Tom, |
bonnie knox |
With Sodom and Gormorrah, God had decided to destroy it but agreed to leave it for ten righteous people. So, the level of wickedness (however God determined that) was sufficient to warrant destruction and yet the judgement would have been averted for ten righteous people.
Also, when God was ready to destroy Israel and just start over with Moses, Moses interceded on Israel's behalf, and God's judgement was averted. If there is a "wickedness threshold," Israel had reached it, but God extended grace because of Moses' intercession.
I don't presume to have answers to questions like this, but I think I know enough to understand that God's ways are higher than ours. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
1/3/11 12:30 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Eddie Robbins |
| I have always heard that if we didn't go tell them that their blood would be on our hands. Yet, we would be in Heaven getting one less reward while the person that never got told about Jesus would burn for all eternity. What kind of god would send someone to hell because someone else didn't tell them? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
1/3/11 12:53 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Randy Johnson |
Do you think we might be guilty here of an overemphasis on individualism and reading individualism into some Scriptures where God is speaking about a "class" of people, rather than just to individual persons?
This Scripture has kept popping up in my mind as I consider these issues:
"God has bound all men over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all" Rom. 11:32
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5431
1/3/11 1:29 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Lee Roy Brown |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | I have always heard that if we didn't go tell them that their blood would be on our hands. Yet, we would be in Heaven getting one less reward while the person that never got told about Jesus would burn for all eternity. What kind of god would send someone to hell because someone else didn't tell them? |
Eddie,
God doesn't send people to hell. People send themselves there. Also we are omitting one major factor in this all, the power of God. No one knows if these people who we think never heard the gospel truly never heard it. God could send an angel or someone to them. I always laugh at the mission departments big push for the lost people group. How do we know they are lost if we haven't been there?
Also if what you believe is true then I could just put my fingers in my ear and lalalalalalalalal when someone tries to tell me about God and I would be ok.
Also you said I can’t believe that a loving God would send someone to hell who has never heard? If I could prove to you right now that God in fact does would you stop serving him? Would you think he is somehow unfair and just? Do you feel so strongly about this that you yourself would stop serving God and go to hell because you think he is unfair? |
Friendly Face
Posts: 426
1/3/11 2:44 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
CoG Jerk |
Greetings Friends,
I didn't see any posts that fully represented what I see as the clearest and most scriptural view of this, so I wanted to chime in if possible.
The question asked is, "Do you go to hell for not hearing the gospel?"
Answer: No, the lost go to hell for sinning against what light they do have (see Rom chs 1, 2, and 3), not for light they don't have.
I do think some major issues being questioned or perhaps forgotten by some is in this discussion are: "What is the penalty for sin? Does sin deserve Hell or not? And are the heathen personally truly responsible for their sins?" Romans 1:20 says plainly that all are without excuse.
Ignorance is not what damns a soul, SIN is.
Sin is the disease, and the gospel is the one and only remedy.
In all the passages of Scripture which describe the Judgment Day, it is specific sins for which you are judged, not ignorance which one could not help.
Also important to note is the scriptural principle that God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him, and, as Jesus said, "Everyone who seeks (persistently) finds." So the idea that some poor ignorant lost person might be damned though he actually longed for salvation is shown to be false as well. Cornelius' experience in Acts 10 is a good example of this.
Rather than lessening the urgency of the Great Commission, this understanding actually only underscores the absolute necessity of prayer--both by the saved and the lost. In Acts 10, we see how Cornelius, a lost man (though a God-fearing man), prayed and gave alms and God sent an angel to him to tell him what he should do. At the same time, Peter was praying and God led him to go preach to Cornelius' household, and the Lord Jesus was glorified through it all.
Paul's sermon on Mars Hill (Acts 17) similarly demonstrates that God is not far from any of us, for we are his offspring, and that God has placed the various tribes of people where they are "if perhaps they might seek after him." So again, the presupposed poor benighted heathen who never got a chance to hear the gospel (though earnestly seeking after God) is contraindicated by these plain passages of Scripture.
Anecdotally, there actually are many cases in modern times of missionaries reaching new tribes and finding the Holy Spirit had been preveniently working in these unreached hearts, and that they had been earnestly seeking to know God and had hoped for someone to come to show them the way, as their old religions had long lost their attraction and satisfaction for them.
Note, this is not another way of salvation, nor is it a way of earning salvation at all. No merit is earned by simply seeking God. The earnest seeker must still meet the conditions of salvation once he hears the gospel (namely, repentance, faith in Christ, and perseverance in the faith). For that matter, obedience itself in no way earns salvation; obedience is simply what one ought to do. There is no extra credit earned for doing one's duty, which is obedience to God.
Also, important to note is the fact that God is absolutely just in all His judgments. No one will be in Hell who doesn't deserve to be there on account of his own sin, and no mortal will ever enter in Heaven who deserves to be there.
Children and those too mentally deficient to understand, being unable to commit sin, are obviously covered by the grace of God. No one will be condemned for that which they could not help (being born). The plain difference is the heathen who has reached the age of accountability knows full well he is sinning against the God-given law of his conscience (Rom 2:12-15). Again, sin, not ignorance, is what deserves condemnation.
Again, Romans chs. 1 through 5 makes all this clear. That by the law is the knowledge of sin, and that everybody has enough knowledge of God to know better than to sin (Romans 1 and 2). The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. The revelation of creation, conscience, and the law of Moses can only diagnose the problem, but they do establish that no flesh may ever glory in His presence, and that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Hope this helps,
CoG Jerk
Last edited by CoG Jerk on 1/3/11 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Friendly Face
Posts: 131
1/3/11 3:36 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Eddie Robbins |
| Quote: | | God doesn't send people to hell |
God gives us the choice. He gives us life and death, good and evil, blessing and cursing. God does that. Who do you think created hell? God did. God sends those who reject Him there.
none of the other stuff you said made any sense to me. Why would you say lalala if you didn't already know what I was going to say? lalalala is already a rejection. Your "argument" makes no sense. Sorry. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
1/3/11 3:41 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
CoG Jerk |
The Apostle of Grace certainly did not subscribe to the view of the "ignorant heathen" being held responsible for what he could not help and did not know:
Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 131
1/3/11 4:42 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
