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 Re: Just because you use "I" in a sentence does no |
MFWKC |
| caseyleejones wrote: | its your opinion. I just ate a candy bar just now. It was not an opinion...it was a fact.
MWFC, I would entertain your opinion on something but in this case, no. |
I didn't say opinion. I said perspective.
We all think our selves perfect until we see what perfect actually is, then we realize we are so far from perfect.
I am not interested in entertainment either. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 707
12/30/10 1:46 pm
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MFWKC |
| Major B. Trammell wrote: | | MFWKC wrote: | This one kind of settle the whole law / ignorance of the law.
Romans 2:12 ESV "For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law" |
How so?
It's basically the same thing Paul said, later, in chapter 5.
Those who have sinned without the law still died because that is the effect of sin on mankind because of Adam's sin. But, those who sin under the law will be judged by the law, but for those who sinned without the law, their sin was not counted against them. |
What does perish mean to you?
Roman 3:20 The law only brings Knowledge of sin, not the Existence of sin. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 707
12/30/10 1:52 pm
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MFWKC |
Major,
Died spiritually or physically?
Is God or Paul for that matter concerned with our physical death?
Sin separates us from God. Plain and simple Law or no Law. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 707
12/30/10 2:13 pm
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| MFWC, what indicators are listed that gives the passage |
caseyleejones |
as Paul's perspective?
I do understand that Paul did say at one time that he gave his perspective(opinion) on marriage and clearly stated that he gave it by permission....KJV I think..... |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11798
12/30/10 2:31 pm
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MFWKC |
Let me just say this and be done. We need to focus on goals and commands from Jesus. Go into all the World.
We are a world full of people born into sin with a deceitful, God-hating heart. We are destined for Gods Wrath outside of the covering of Jesus' Blood. His Blood made holy because he drank the full cup of God's Wrath.
Outside of a those who CAN NOT make the choice, (young children and mentally handicapped, etc.....maybe follows of the prosperity doctrine JK), this is the case for every man and woman on this planet.
Any interpretation of scripture that contradicts this, to me is not accurate.
I am done.
Think of this though before you teach someone that people not hearing lets them go to heaven. This creates a less proactive and less passionate about missions next generation. That would directly contradict what Jesus commanded to do. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 707
12/30/10 2:51 pm
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Randy Johnson |
| MFWKC wrote: | | Think of this though before you teach someone that people not hearing lets them go to heaven. This creates a less proactive and less passionate about missions next generation. That would directly contradict what Jesus commanded to do. |
It only does that if people's hearts aren't right with God, even though they are saved.
It really is unknown to us how God will deal with people who never hear the gospel. It's totally in His hands and not ours. Regardless of how he handles them, it is our responsibility to obey and preach the gospel.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5431
12/30/10 3:31 pm
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| I agree with much of what you say.... |
caseyleejones |
| MFWKC wrote: | Let me just say this and be done. We need to focus on goals and commands from Jesus. Go into all the World.
We are a world full of people born into sin with a deceitful, God-hating heart. We are destined for Gods Wrath outside of the covering of Jesus' Blood. His Blood made holy because he drank the full cup of God's Wrath.
Outside of a those who CAN NOT make the choice, (young children and mentally handicapped, etc.....maybe follows of the prosperity doctrine JK), this is the case for every man and woman on this planet.
Any interpretation of scripture that contradicts this, to me is not accurate.
I am done.
Think of this though before you teach someone that people not hearing lets them go to heaven. This creates a less proactive and less passionate about missions next generation. That would directly contradict what Jesus commanded to do. |
I don't know who JK is though....
Secondly, I do not teach that but I disagree with your assertion that it will cause people to be less passionate. Pastors nag their congregation about church attendance and tithe and it doesn't seem to change the situation. So nagging people about does not help.
But, I will say this.....you have lessened the Word of God by calling some of it mans opinion. I am not too sure you have grounds to make your final point. You too have picked a position and cherry picked scriptures to mete your belief system. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11798
12/30/10 3:34 pm
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| Re: I agree with much of what you say.... |
MFWKC |
| caseyleejones wrote: | | MFWKC wrote: | Let me just say this and be done. We need to focus on goals and commands from Jesus. Go into all the World.
We are a world full of people born into sin with a deceitful, God-hating heart. We are destined for Gods Wrath outside of the covering of Jesus' Blood. His Blood made holy because he drank the full cup of God's Wrath.
Outside of a those who CAN NOT make the choice, (young children and mentally handicapped, etc.....maybe follows of the prosperity doctrine JK), this is the case for every man and woman on this planet.
Any interpretation of scripture that contradicts this, to me is not accurate.
I am done.
Think of this though before you teach someone that people not hearing lets them go to heaven. This creates a less proactive and less passionate about missions next generation. That would directly contradict what Jesus commanded to do. |
I don't know who JK is though....
Secondly, I do not teach that but I disagree with your assertion that it will cause people to be less passionate. Pastors nag their congregation about church attendance and tithe and it doesn't seem to change the situation. So nagging people about does not help.
But, I will say this.....you have lessened the Word of God by calling some of it mans opinion. I am not too sure you have grounds to make your final point. You too have picked a position and cherry picked scriptures to mete your belief system. |
JK means Just kidding...not sure if you were JK.
Perspective and Opinion are not the same thing.
You need to go back and read and see that you are the only one that used the word opinion. If you don't know the difference, then I am sorry. For you to say this is in my opinion a lie...not JK.
Romans 2:12 still settles this to me. Perish is not physical death, but spiritual death. Seperation from a Holy God.
You are kidding yourself if you don't think that you would be giving a already passive lazy americanized self-centered church a "out" on missions.
You are also kidding yourself if you don't think some concerned person wouldn't say "why share Jesus to these people if it will then qualify them for hell".
Do you not see how counter Jesus' command this stance is? "Go into all the world and share the gospel and make disciples", but if you don't get to them they will go to heaven anyway. That is not the Jesus I read in scripture or God.
Will I be upset if I am wrong about this when I get to heaven? no. Great more made it than I thought.
Will you be okay if God tells you that you made someone decide it wasn't needed for them to go into all the world and you end up being wrong about this?
Last edited by MFWKC on 12/31/10 1:40 am; edited 2 times in total |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 707
12/31/10 1:08 am
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MFWKC |
| Randy Johnson wrote: | | MFWKC wrote: | | Think of this though before you teach someone that people not hearing lets them go to heaven. This creates a less proactive and less passionate about missions next generation. That would directly contradict what Jesus commanded to do. |
It only does that if people's hearts aren't right with God, even though they are saved.
It really is unknown to us how God will deal with people who never hear the gospel. It's totally in His hands and not ours. Regardless of how he handles them, it is our responsibility to obey and preach the gospel. |
Does the person you mentioned above exist?
Jeremiah 17:9 (NIV)
9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?
I totally agree with the rest.
I believe we teach/plan/work/go like they are heading to Hell and Hope/pray that they are on their way to heaven.
It is the spiritual "Hope for the best, Plan for the worst".
We don't need to teach to a already un-engaged church these people are going to heaven unless we get the gospel to them. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 707
12/31/10 1:16 am
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Randy Johnson |
| MFWKC wrote: | | Randy Johnson wrote: | | MFWKC wrote: | | Think of this though before you teach someone that people not hearing lets them go to heaven. This creates a less proactive and less passionate about missions next generation. That would directly contradict what Jesus commanded to do. |
It only does that if people's hearts aren't right with God, even though they are saved.
It really is unknown to us how God will deal with people who never hear the gospel. It's totally in His hands and not ours. Regardless of how he handles them, it is our responsibility to obey and preach the gospel. |
Does the person you mentioned above exist?
Jeremiah 17:9 (NIV)
9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?
I totally agree with the rest.
I believe we teach/plan/work/go like they are heading to Hell and Hope/pray that they are on their way to heaven.
It is the spiritual "Hope for the best, Plan for the worst".
We don't need to teach to a already un-engaged church these people are going to heaven unless we get the gospel to them. |
I am not saying they are going to heaven, I am saying it is no more our place to say they are going to hell than it is our place to say they are going to heaven. The truth is, we don't know where they are going, we just have to trust God.
Yes, they exist. They are spiritually immature infants, but yes, they exist.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5431
12/31/10 6:51 am
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MFWKC |
| Randy Johnson wrote: | | MFWKC wrote: | | Randy Johnson wrote: | | MFWKC wrote: | | Think of this though before you teach someone that people not hearing lets them go to heaven. This creates a less proactive and less passionate about missions next generation. That would directly contradict what Jesus commanded to do. |
It only does that if people's hearts aren't right with God, even though they are saved.
It really is unknown to us how God will deal with people who never hear the gospel. It's totally in His hands and not ours. Regardless of how he handles them, it is our responsibility to obey and preach the gospel. |
Does the person you mentioned above exist?
Jeremiah 17:9 (NIV)
9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?
I totally agree with the rest.
I believe we teach/plan/work/go like they are heading to Hell and Hope/pray that they are on their way to heaven.
It is the spiritual "Hope for the best, Plan for the worst".
We don't need to teach to a already un-engaged church these people are going to heaven unless we get the gospel to them. |
I am not saying they are going to heaven, I am saying it is no more our place to say they are going to hell than it is our place to say they are going to heaven. The truth is, we don't know where they are going, we just have to trust God.
Yes, they exist. They are spiritually immature infants, but yes, they exist. |
I agree that it is God's decision. We do need to trust him and do the work too.
And, I should have said that according to Jeremiah, our hearts are never right, so we can't put something out that gives deceitful hearts a out on world missions.
So yes they exist, we are saved, but our hearts are deceitful this side of heaven. The question should have been does anyone with a pure heart exist?
At least that is the evidence I find, I would welcome any verse that tells us that we can hope for a pure heart this side of heaven. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 707
12/31/10 10:11 am
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bradfreeman |
| Daniel Rushing wrote: | | Nick Park wrote: | | Eddie Robbins wrote: | | If a baby that dies doesn't go to hell, neither does anybody else who doesn't comprehend it. It's the same logic. |
No, it isn't the same logic.
The reason a baby doesn't go to hell is nothing to do whether the baby has heard the Gospel or not. It's all to do with the fact that a baby hasn't sinned. |
So what about a three year old who has sinned? |
A 3 year old CANNOT sin and will not go to Hell even if it dies without faith in Christ. Matthew 19:14, Mark 10:14, Luke 18:16. The Kingdom of God belongs to the little children.
With regard to those who have not heard:
I have always trusted in this...God will do the right thing. His judgment is better than mine. His mercy is greater than mine. His ways are higher than mine.
Perhaps those who die without Christ will get an opportunity to hear and believe, like we suppose the righteous dead did when we say that Christ descended into Abraham's bosom and preached to the righteous before leading captivity captive. Christ is the way. His sacrifice is only way any of us could get the grace and forgiveness we need to enter God's kingdom.
I truly believe that, however its shakes out, we will all say with perfect confidence that God did the right and fair and loving thing.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
12/31/10 10:22 am
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MFWKC |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Daniel Rushing wrote: | | Nick Park wrote: | | Eddie Robbins wrote: | | If a baby that dies doesn't go to hell, neither does anybody else who doesn't comprehend it. It's the same logic. |
No, it isn't the same logic.
The reason a baby doesn't go to hell is nothing to do whether the baby has heard the Gospel or not. It's all to do with the fact that a baby hasn't sinned. |
So what about a three year old who has sinned? |
A 3 year old CANNOT sin and will not go to Hell even if it dies without faith in Christ. Matthew 19:14, Mark 10:14, Luke 18:16. The Kingdom of God belongs to the little children.
With regard to those who have not heard:
I have always trusted in this...God will do the right thing. His judgment is better than mine. His mercy is greater than mine. His ways are higher than mine.
Perhaps those who die without Christ will get an opportunity to hear and believe, like we suppose the righteous dead did when we say that Christ descended into Abraham's bosom and preached to the righteous before leading captivity captive. Christ is the way. His sacrifice is only way any of us could get the grace and forgiveness we need to enter God's kingdom.
I truly believe that, however its shakes out, we will all say with perfect confidence that God did the right and fair and loving thing. |
Not saying you are wrong. I also have thought this to be a possibility.
Do you have any scriptural basis for this trust? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 707
12/31/10 10:42 am
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bradfreeman |
| MFWKC wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | Daniel Rushing wrote: | | Nick Park wrote: | | Eddie Robbins wrote: | | If a baby that dies doesn't go to hell, neither does anybody else who doesn't comprehend it. It's the same logic. |
No, it isn't the same logic.
The reason a baby doesn't go to hell is nothing to do whether the baby has heard the Gospel or not. It's all to do with the fact that a baby hasn't sinned. |
So what about a three year old who has sinned? |
A 3 year old CANNOT sin and will not go to Hell even if it dies without faith in Christ. Matthew 19:14, Mark 10:14, Luke 18:16. The Kingdom of God belongs to the little children.
With regard to those who have not heard:
I have always trusted in this...God will do the right thing. His judgment is better than mine. His mercy is greater than mine. His ways are higher than mine.
Perhaps those who die without Christ will get an opportunity to hear and believe, like we suppose the righteous dead did when we say that Christ descended into Abraham's bosom and preached to the righteous before leading captivity captive. Christ is the way. His sacrifice is only way any of us could get the grace and forgiveness we need to enter God's kingdom.
I truly believe that, however its shakes out, we will all say with perfect confidence that God did the right and fair and loving thing. |
Not saying you are wrong. I also have thought this to be a possibility.
Do you have any scriptural basis for this trust? |
If you are referring to the possibility that folks will be presented with an opportunity to believe after death...nope. If you are referring to the infinite goodness, grace, wisdom and love of God...yup. Here's a few from James:
James 2:13
because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!
James 3:17
But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.
James 5:11
As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.
God is FULL of mercy! 
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
12/31/10 10:48 am
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MFWKC |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | MFWKC wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | Daniel Rushing wrote: | | Nick Park wrote: | | Eddie Robbins wrote: | | If a baby that dies doesn't go to hell, neither does anybody else who doesn't comprehend it. It's the same logic. |
No, it isn't the same logic.
The reason a baby doesn't go to hell is nothing to do whether the baby has heard the Gospel or not. It's all to do with the fact that a baby hasn't sinned. |
So what about a three year old who has sinned? |
A 3 year old CANNOT sin and will not go to Hell even if it dies without faith in Christ. Matthew 19:14, Mark 10:14, Luke 18:16. The Kingdom of God belongs to the little children.
With regard to those who have not heard:
I have always trusted in this...God will do the right thing. His judgment is better than mine. His mercy is greater than mine. His ways are higher than mine.
Perhaps those who die without Christ will get an opportunity to hear and believe, like we suppose the righteous dead did when we say that Christ descended into Abraham's bosom and preached to the righteous before leading captivity captive. Christ is the way. His sacrifice is only way any of us could get the grace and forgiveness we need to enter God's kingdom.
I truly believe that, however its shakes out, we will all say with perfect confidence that God did the right and fair and loving thing. |
Not saying you are wrong. I also have thought this to be a possibility.
Do you have any scriptural basis for this trust? |
If you are referring to the possibility that folks will be presented with an opportunity to believe after death...nope. If you are referring to the infinite goodness, grace, wisdom and love of God...yup. Here's a few from James:
James 2:13
because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!
James 3:17
But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.
James 5:11
As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.
God is FULL of mercy! |
Obviously, I was interested in the NOPE.
I understand the characteristics of God.
Remember that I am not saying you are wrong. I was just curious if you had scripture for post death evangelism.
I am not sure that Jesus speaking to those who were looking for his coming after their death is the same as those who die rejecting God the Father. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 707
12/31/10 11:44 am
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bradfreeman |
| MFWKC wrote: | | I am not sure that Jesus speaking to those who were looking for his coming after their death is the same as those who die rejecting God the Father. |
It isn't the same. I'm not even speculating that those who REJECT God in this life will get a second chance. I'm speculating about those who never had the chance to reject or accept the Gospel.
If you understand the characteristics of God you are doing much better than me. I understand only dimly. For example, I don't understand how an infinite God can be FULL of anything.
Full suggests a capacity. That's a LOT of mercy!!!
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
12/31/10 12:03 pm
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MFWKC |
Brad,
You are right didn't mean I completely understood. Just meant I understood what you were saying about Him.
What do you feel about Romans 1 when it says God has made himself known? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 707
12/31/10 12:13 pm
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Bro Bob |
Finally got around to reading through this thread.
There is no need for me to opine, FG Minister said everything I would have said back on page one.
But Tom Sterbens also posted on page two, and was totally ignored.
I did not comprehend his question very well, and could not answer what was meant in Gen 15. Like many things in Genesis, I am a foreigner to the thinking there.
I did look up the quote he gave in the New Living Translation, and it may have helped me a little bit.
| Quote: |
Gen 15:16 (NLT) After four generations your descendants will return here to this land, for the sins of the Amorites do not yet warrant their destruction.” |
So it got me to thinking. God is all knowing. And he provides different opportunities to different people, different nations, and different generations, and his expectations or requirements from each also vary. Is this not true?
If we know anything from this discussion, playing God is not within our reach. Pity the fool who aspires to such a quest. (Lucifer?)
But there may be something in that NLT version of Tom's question.
In all of man, regardless the tribe or era of time, there has been a choice set before him as to what each man wishes to do with God. Given time, each man and each tribe and each nation will decide to accept him, or reject him. Though the bar may be set at different places, always within man's reach, a heart that is tune with God will make a valiant attempt, and the rest will reject him, and eventually reject him totally, though they KNOW doing so means their eternal death. (Romans 1)
I don't have to remind you that our own nation, founded on the mostly Godly principles since Moses came back with two tablets, is well on it's way to a total rejection of God. We are Amorites whose sins, though many, do not YET warrant our destruction.
BB |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3944
12/31/10 12:55 pm
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MFWKC |
| Bro Bob wrote: | Finally got around to reading through this thread.
There is no need for me to opine, FG Minister said everything I would have said back on page one.
But Tom Sterbens also posted on page two, and was totally ignored.
I did not comprehend his question very well, and could not answer what was meant in Gen 15. Like many things in Genesis, I am a foreigner to the thinking there.
I did look up the quote he gave in the New Living Translation, and it may have helped me a little bit.
| Quote: |
Gen 15:16 (NLT) After four generations your descendants will return here to this land, for the sins of the Amorites do not yet warrant their destruction.” |
So it got me to thinking. God is all knowing. And he provides different opportunities to different people, different nations, and different generations, and his expectations or requirements from each also vary. Is this not true?
If we know anything from this discussion, playing God is not within our reach. Pity the fool who aspires to such a quest. (Lucifer?)
But there may be something in that NLT version of Tom's question.
In all of man, regardless the tribe or era of time, there has been a choice set before him as to what each man wishes to do with God. Given time, each man and each tribe and each nation will decide to accept him, or reject him. Though the bar may be set at different places, always within man's reach, a heart that is tune with God will make a valiant attempt, and the rest will reject him, and eventually reject him totally, though they KNOW doing so means their eternal death. (Romans 1)
I don't have to remind you that our own nation, founded on the mostly Godly principles since Moses came back with two tablets, is well on it's way to a total rejection of God. We are Amorites whose sins, though many, do not YET warrant our destruction.
BB |
Maybe it is just me, but I find Romans 1 to be in contradiction to FG Ministers post of the unreached getting a pass.
Couple that with John 14:6 and it seems to support why all are heading for wrath and judgement unless they accept Jesus and follow him.
However, I also understand that it doesn't matter what I or anyone else on here thinks. God's will is going to take place either way.
I was just trying to do my best to answer the question of the thread.
I don't feel Tom's post was related, valid but not related. It maybe should be a thread by itself. It has to do more with falling away.
I am also concerned that in the age of pacifism, telling the church here that those who do not hear will go to heaven is another lowering of the standard that could lead to the coming judgement that you spoke of.
I have already said this on this thread or the other.
I would rather be wrong thinking that all the world needs to hear about Jesus and the find out that more made it than I thought. I am fine with that.
I wouldn't be able to handle it if I found out all did need to receive Jesus and I gave someone an excuse to not help with world missions.
Hope for the best, but plan for the worst. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 707
12/31/10 2:24 pm
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Bro Bob |
I missed the part where FGminister says those who do not hear get a pass. I thought he was saying they would be judged in accordance with what they did know and should have known. He even mentioned the various degrees of punishment.
Certainly, those of us who have met Christ cannot avoid obeying his command to go and make disciples. We do not have the option of not telling people.
I may have missed Tom's point. But what I DID take from my brief study was that there was a standard God had in place for the Amorites, not the same as for the Israelites, that he was holding them to and to which they would be judged. Whether I am in step with Tom or not, do you see what I think I am seeing? And if so, do you not find it relevant to the question of this thread? |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3944
12/31/10 2:52 pm
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