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doyle

Allen King: 5 reasons there are so few young COG ministers

Acts-celerate Owner Posts: 6957 **4/9/08 2:33 pm**

In another post Allen King responded about why only 16 percent of COG ministers are under 40. We felt his response was significant enough that it deserved it's own discussion thread.

ALLEN KINGS POST BEGINS:

I feel there are a number of contributing factors to this dilemma. None of which I see being addressed any time soon.

First of all, have you or anyone you know tried to secure credentials through the Church of God lately? There are more hoops to jump through than at a circus. Please understand, I am all for the legitimacy of the process. I appreciate that our movement does not hand out papers to every and any "Johnny Come Lately". However, it is getting ridiculous.

As a pastor and district overseer, I have signed and forwarded nearly 20 applications in the past 5 years. Nearly every applicant has encountered hold-ups and unwarranted scrutiny, including my own wife. One applicant for Ordained Minister applied over 3 years ago, passed his test over a year ago, and is still waiting for his credentials.

The explanation: "There have been several changes to the procedures. We working out the glitches." There are simply easier ways to obtain credentials with other organizations.

Secondly, (and I know I'll be blasted for this) there is simply more offered to younger ministers through other organizations. There is greater financial, moral, and educational support.

Thirdly, I think the average age of the Church of God member plays a role. As Floyd Lawhon said in one of our camp meetings, "We are a gray church." Younger people are moving away from denominationalism. Younger ministers are drawn to younger congregations. And, in all honesty, many of our older members are just plain mean and hostile toward anything new and innovative. So, why would any young pastor want to fight that fight if he doesn't have to do so? Relevant to the young minister is the harvest field, not keeping the aquarium.

Fourthly, it is expensive to be a Church of God pastor. When 15 cents of every tithe dollar is required to be sent to state and general headquarters, with no accountability as to where that money is spent, our young guys are asking questions and getting no answers as to the benefits of such expenditures to the local congregation. Our conferences and educational opportunities are very costly, despite our sending hundreds of dollars a month.

Fifthly, the dynamics of ministry have changed. Long term pastorates have become normative in some movements and among independents. Successful pastors are viewed as those who remain with the same congregation for an extended time. The statistic of the average tenure of a Church of God pastor does not speak well of our movement and how well our churches accommodate the vision of a pastor.

I could go on, but I'm not sure that "sixthly" is a word.
_________________
The largest room in the world is the room for improvement.

Louis Morgan

Thanks, and I agree

Acts-celerater Posts: 934 **4/9/08 3:16 pm**

Thanks, Allen and Doyle. I agree with these statements-- and I am not doing so with any ill-spirited feeling (just as I "hear" the sincerity and lack of ill-spirit in the original post). These have been some of my own frustrations in deciding what to do with my ministerial credentials. And while I have chosen to remain in the COG because of my heritage and respect for men and women who have nurtured me and poured into me, I realize that my decision is not because I perceive there will be much opportunity or even acceptance of my type of ministry.

I provided my mentors with a link to this discussion board concerning the discussion about my decision to keep my COG credentials and my plans for ministry. Both replied to me, and one even asked, "Are these spirit-filled people?" (because he felt a few of the comments were less than charitable). However, I realize God has given me opportunities for growth and development that are beyond me personally. It is for a reason greater than myself. And, I also know I do not have all the answers and still have things to learn-- but I suspect that everyone does if he or she is honest. While I have a deep love for the COG, I feel there has become too much competition and pride among the ministry. My understanding of ministry is that it is about servanthood and authenticity. It is about being self-less. I also believe my spiritual leaders should model this behavior as well.

Thankfully, both of my mentors are connected to large networks both in the US and overseas. One is already preparing speaking engagements and leadership training opportunities for me once I complete my dissertation. This is my desire, and I am thankful God brought me across the path of this individual who knows me, believes in the gifting God has entrusted to me, and is actively finding ways to allow me to move forward in that gifting. To me, this is what the COG (and any denomination) should be doing. At the very least, there should be some time of information available about locations that need and want this type of ministry. Instead, I feel like I have to spend my time trying to convince others that the ministry call I have is valid. To have so many churches throughout the world, we have become "bogged down" somewhere in our thinking and process.

I have a cousin who was raised in the COG and became a minister with COG license, but he was never given a church. Eventually an independent group near our hometown asked him to pastor. He is no longer a COG minister, but today he has one of the fastest growing congregations in our home county. Many young couples have become a part of that church. We lost some COG young people to this church as well. It could have happened in the COG, but there was too much competition. His gifting was overlooked, and now someone else is reaping the benefits. Of course, I rejoice because souls are being saved and the Kingdom is being advanced. In the end, that is what is most important. But, it could have been different.

I believe many young ministers are finding this level of connection/mentorship/relationship in other organizations, or else they are just going and doing their ministry without credentials. They are finding a place where ministry is not about "the ministers" but about the needs in the world.

Thanks again for this post.
_________________
growing in grace
http://www.louismorgan.info
http://morganonmission.blogspot.com

MayB2Day

Allen King: Preach on Brother

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1909 **4/9/08 3:19 pm**

AK summized:

Yo Dude

Thoughts...

Acts-dicted Posts: 8625 **4/9/08 3:36 pm**

I wonder if part of the reason is that some of us older ministers, thinking that some young guy's ministry won't fit with ours, fail to give them opportunities. And since us older guys make up the majority of ministers, these young guys just have better chances elsewhere.

I completely agree with the difficulty in obtaining credentials. I know of at least two former Church of God ministers who today pastor thriving independent churches. Had they been able to obtain their credentials without reading 40-11 books and so forth, they might be pastoring brand-new Churches of God today.

I'm all for the education part of it. But we better remember there is a supernatural element, and frankly, it seems that so long as they get the education part down, we'll credential them whether they have any anointing or not.

The Church of God used to seem to be so very, very important to us old-schoolers. We had greater respect for Cleveland, our heritage, and so forth--and we passed it on to the next generation. But today, most children in the Church of God, I dare say, couldn't tell you where headquarters is, or even that we are the oldest Pentecostal denomination in the world. We're just "the place we go to church." There is no longer a feeling of connectedness to a certain people and movement. And when that goes, so goes the ties that cause young ministers to wish to stay a part.

Frankly, the ONLY things that I believe the Church of God offers over good independent churches are: 1) being part of the oldest Pentecostal denomination; 2) the great fellowship that is facilitated by campmeetings, and such. After all, most independent churches have doctrinal beliefs in the ballpark of ours (I've seen some COPIED from ours), so that's not a deal breaker.

Then--and this is the cynical part of me--lots of young ministers understand that starting a church is very much like starting a business. It will support them with a salary and so forth, if they can make it work. If they know that, starting out--in the toughest stages of church planting perhaps--they will have to forego the TOT--money that could be used by the church (or by the pastor for his salary)--well, they aren't dumb.

Postmodern Preacher

Unavoidable tension...

Postmodern Preacher · Acts-celerater Posts: 556 **4/9/08 5:20 pm**

between someone being "called" by God and then "set forth" by the church.

The church is to affirm a calling upon the individual.

This will always bring tension, angst between the two.

Concerning licensing, has the time come to give greater credibility to experience and praxis? Should we allow certain ministerial candidates to exempt certain aspects without compromising the integrity of ministerial licensure? What would this look like?

The same unavoidable tension is present with with ministerial training. The church wants everyone called to minister, but everyone called needs training. Pastors today have congregants with undergraduate and graduate degrees, and there will be more in the generation to come. How can we "hurry" the process of licensing and ministerial training without damaging the need for training and scholarship? What would this look like?

Obviously CAMS or MIP are not static perfected methods but should be in a state of constant change in order to be relevant.

But one problem is that while the MIP greatly blesses and challenges some, others will already be beyond the benefits of MIP. This is always going to happen with a structured system. Also, if training was the sole responsibility of the local church, some would receive great training, yet others would definitely not!

Some pastors can obviously do as great a job as any state office board, yet some Interns would be at a great disadvantage with a pastor who either is not equipped to train or has no desire to train ministerial prospects.

Has the time come to allow Interns to "test out," exempt portions based upon their prior study and experience?

We can all curse the darkness and point out weaknesses in any "program."

But what should the licensing process look like?

If CAMS or MIP are inadequate and need to be replaced, what would a better system look like?

For one, I would enjoy hearing thoughts about this!!

Sincerely...
_________________
Postmodern but holiness!

Larry Wiley

Acts Mod Posts: 5298 **4/9/08 8:06 pm**

Protect the 15% and the ownership to the property at any cost.
_________________
Larry Wiley

StephenHoell

2nd & 3rd hit home

Hey, DOC Posts: 92 **4/9/08 10:03 pm**

I'm going through the MIP right now...have not opened a book nor have I watched a video...and I haven't made less than a 90 yet. The material and education is not really difficult...but because my dark hair hasn't turned gray yet, post-MIP will be difficult.

My wife and I are seriously contemplating changing our credentials to the Pentecostal Holiness denomination. They are wanting young preachers. They give young preachers an opportunity. They work with young preachers.

Alot of CoG pastors that I know of like to preach forgiveness but will never forget the past...so if a young preachers has messed up...you're done...unless you're a "poster child"...
_________________
What if you could do anything for God, and knew it was impossible to fail? What's stopping you?

Darrell Garrett

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5330 **4/9/08 10:45 pm**

Allen, you said a mouthful, my friend, and you are right on the mark.
My son told us last year that he knew he was called to preach. He will be leaving for college in a couple of months. He will be getting a degree in Physics Engineering and then going on to Medical school, as he plans on being a radiologist. So the kid is looking at 9 or 10 years of very difficult, time consuming college. I share this, because if he does the COG stuff, they want him to do 2 years of CAMS then the MIP; this on top of his college requirements. He is really torn. He wants to stay in the COG, which would make him a 4th generation COG preacher. But he is questioning at how realistic this is under his circumstances. I told him that I will support him in what ever decision he makes, and added that I could not blame him at all if he walked away from the COG. Quite frankly, if I were in his shoes, I would not even consider the COG with all the hoops they want him to jump through.

Old Time Country Preacher

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **4/9/08 11:50 pm**

Old Time Country Preacher

Re: 2nd & 3rd hit home

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **4/9/08 11:59 pm**

archie

Sorry Allen

Acts-celerater Posts: 691 **4/10/08 7:26 am**

I love you and your family and your awesome in-laws, but, I disagree with your assesment.
I have worked in the ministerial development area for several years at the state,local and national level and it is not hard nor expensive.
I too am thankful that we do not hand out credentials. CAMS is 3-4 months and uses critical assesment tools to help the student discern their credentialing needs.
MIP is sought out by sister denoms as a viable tool for training ministers.
I believe that at least part of the young minister problem is directly related to the closing of all of our Bible Colleges,ECBC,WCCC,NWBC and that wonderfully effective Bible and Music Training School that North Carolina ran successfully for many years.
I am gray. There it is, right out on the table. Openly gray. Third generation COG and I love training our ministers young and old alike. God is still calling young men and women to ministry today and their training begins in the local church. Those of you who are so vocal about being missional and emergent start right there. Raise up your Timothys and Tituses.Pour into The Missions and see those young energetics turn the world upside down for Jesus.
I was young and now I am old, I have never seen the righteous forsaken or begging for bread(recognition, a place to preach, an opportunity).

Darrell Garrett

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5330 **4/10/08 8:26 am**

Jim Morrison

Acts-celerater Posts: 735 **4/10/08 8:48 am**

Good points:
I agree with many of AJ's points. I also agree with a couple of points from Archie:
I am a tweener, not young or old.
1. The closing of Colleges has really hurt our young ministers crop. Having served in a Missions Region I saw first hand how the closing of schools has hurt us. You may think it is no big deal, they can go to Lee and it is better than a school in the Dakotas, CA or NC, however many kids like to stay close to where they are from. Not all want to go to TN. Many of the kids in IA/NE went to Northwest, an AG school in Minneapolis, MN. Once they got there they seldom returned to ministry in the COG. The opp's that came their way were AG opp's.
Very few of the men who were serving in IA/NE had any experience with that area until they came to Pastor there from various parts of the country, it makes a difference.

2. I think the hoops are too many. I think some of our training is needed and I would be more in favor of it IF we would get more focused on the relationship aspect of ministry than the book learning part.
Test, test, test, wait, wait, wait And oh BTW you have built a church that was in the hole financially and had less than 20 people, now you have over 200, but you were late on your reports you will have to wait a five more months and show yourself faithful!!!! That was a real example btw.
We just simply don't focus on relationship and helping a person show them self approved enough. The Paul Timothy was a Father-Son relationship, not just a teacher-student relationship.

3. Better opps and more real relationship - no doubt about it.

Old Time Country Preacher

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **4/10/08 9:04 am**

Darrell Garrett

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5330 **4/10/08 9:14 am**

The MIP you did and the MIP of today have nothing in common other than the name. I believe in preparing for ministry, but let's be honest, most of this PLEASE SELECT ANOTHER WORD they have folks going through now days is nothing more than busy work. The idea is to "weed out" those who "are not called" because they are not willing to jump the hoops. Well, we are getting what these so called experts wanted, thinned out numbers... and it is fixing to drive the death nail into this denomination.

BuckeyeYP

Some thoughts

New Member Posts: 20 **4/10/08 9:28 am**

As a young minister who graduated from Lee less than five years ago I can tell you my thoughts on why mist of my class mates never got involved with the COG.

1. Politics- Our generation doesn't need face time they want God time and if you go to the GA or Winterfest it becomes a who's who's in the COG on stage and then we give God his time.

2. We focus way to much on our pentecostal heritage instead of looking to our Pentecostal future. Young ministers don't need to hear about the moves of God in the past they want to see moves of God now. If all our leadership does is focus on the Good old days and not where God is leading us than why would you want to be part of a movement that has no future because they live in the past.

3. If it's not in the south you might as well start it yourself. An uncle of mine pastor in wisconsin for 14 years and his church was taking care of struggling pastors in that area. Why would you want to be part of an organization where the leadership drive $50,000+ cars and live comfortable while you have guys who are trying to reach there communities working full time jobs and pastoring and still not making ends meat.

However, let me give my reasons why I am a Minister in the COG.

1. In order to see change you have to be willing to pay the price. Most guys I know say well if they don't like I will leave. If we all do that then nothing will ever happen and the same names just different generations will be in leadership doing the same stuff their daddies and grand daddies did, and eventually the COG will be an international success and a dead church in the U.S

2. I want to see the COG succeed this is a great denomination with sound doctrine. All we have to do is find the way to take the same message and the same beliefs and make them relevant for today.

Allen King

Re: Sorry Allen

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1302 **4/10/08 9:45 am**

Daniel Rushing

Allen,

Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3063 **4/10/08 5:50 pm**

I completely agree with you. I know a young man right now who can't get credentialed because he is in the military (Army National Guard), and has to be away on duty every weekend they schedule CAMS. There has been little effort to try and work with him. He is completely qualified, an exceptional Christian, and a wonderful father and minister. I don't even know if he is interested any more.

Postmodern Preacher

Tensions unavoidable, new methods/means essential...

Acts-celerater Posts: 556 **4/10/08 7:26 pm**

There are unavoidable tensions between someone being "called" by God and then "set forth" by the church.

The church is to affirm a calling upon the individual.

This will always bring tension, angst between the two.

Concerning licensing, has the time come to give greater credibility to experience and praxis? Should we allow certain ministerial candidates to exempt certain aspects without compromising the integrity of ministerial licensure? What would this look like?

The same unavoidable tension is present with with ministerial training. The church wants everyone called to minister, but everyone called needs training. Pastors today have congregants with undergraduate and graduate degrees, and there will be more in the generation to come. How can we "hurry" the process of licensing and ministerial training without damaging the need for training and scholarship? What would this look like?

Obviously CAMS or MIP are not static perfected methods but should be in a state of constant change in order to be relevant. With the advent of internet college degrees and other such opportunities, the church is going to have to catch up

But one problem is that while the MIP greatly blesses and challenges some, others will already be beyond the benefits of MIP. This is always going to happen with a structured system. Also, if training was the sole responsibility of the local church, some would receive great training, yet others would definitely not!

Some pastors can obviously do as great a job as any state office board, yet some Interns would be at a great disadvantage with a pastor who either is not equipped to train or has no desire to train ministerial prospects.

Has the time come to allow Interns to "test out," exempt portions based upon their prior study and experience?

We can all curse the darkness and point out weaknesses in any "program."

But what should the licensing process look like?

If CAMS or MIP are inadequate and need to be replaced, what would a better system look like?

For one, I would enjoy hearing thoughts about this!!

Sincerely...

p.s. I erased my post from yesterday and replaced it with this. After praying, I considered it too negative.

Blessings!
_________________
Postmodern but holiness!

Travis Johnson

Re: Sorry Allen

Acts-dicted Posts: 7821 **4/10/08 7:53 pm**