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Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **4/3/08 3:17 pm**

The idea that you can only speak in tongues at some time when you are ecstatic when the Spirit comes on you, not under your control at all, is not just a COG belief. There were some Congregational Holiness people who thought that way. I am not sure of the old PH position on the issue. Maybe it was common in the southeast among movements that used to be or still are believers in sanctification as a one-time act of grace, who were branded as 'holy rollers' even before the Pentecostal movement started.

I can say from I Corinthians 14 that it is possible for certain people to speak in tongues out of turn. I cannot say that everyone who is able to speak in tongues can always do so at will whenever they want.

It's like prophecy or words of knowledge. Some people can just flow in this stuff, regularly getting revelations about things when they pray or minister to people. Other people who get words of knowledge get one oncea year, or once every several months. It's just may not be the same for everyone.

I suspect there may be some fake tongues among churches with both beliefs about tongues. If you tell someone to blank their mind and say whatever bubbles out of their spirit, and have other people say 'shandai shandai' in their ear, they might say 'shandai shandai'-- no Holy Ghost baptism necessary. If someone is groaning emotionally, and some old overweight woman reaches over and grabs the groaners jaw at the altar and moves it up and down and says, "You got it!" and that person believes you, you can emulate tongues, no Holy Ghost baptism needed.

In my experience the AOG and most of the Pentecostal movement believes tongues can be controlled by the believer. (I grew up after the Charismatic movement hit, so I'm not sure on this.) I downloaded a book recently, "Spoken by the Spirit" from the early '70's. It documents 75 accounts, many from AOG churches, of people who spoke in tongues that were understood by speakers of the languages. In some cases, there was a matching intepretation the person who understood could confirm.

Are there any cases of this for the groups that believe in the more ecstatic use of tongues.
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Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **4/3/08 3:24 pm**

J Ryan Herrington

Acts-celerater Posts: 627 **4/3/08 3:39 pm**

I'm not bringing in Pentecostal tradition Link. I'm simply stating the scripture that says "as the Spirit gives the utterance." If He doesn't give the utterance, it's not Him, it's you and me giving ourselves the utterance.

I don't understand what you're trying to say about babbling and meaning the read thing . . . . For me, if the Spirit doesn't give the utterance, then yes it's babbling. It's man made utterances.

As you say you don't see anything that says the speaker has to be moved to speak, I don't see anything that says he doesn't. In fact I see more that implies that you need to be moved to do such a thing. In fact, it seems to me the necessity for chapter 14 to the Corinthians is the fact that many were speaking at will and it was disrupting the service. If tongues are used as the Spirit gives the utterance, then confusion won't exist in the way Paul is instructing. God won't fight with Himself in a service.

BishopsWife

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1814 **4/3/08 3:39 pm**

res0515

J...

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1042 **4/3/08 3:55 pm**

there is a big difference in your comparison of your finances vs the Holy Spirit.
"I'm not saying we don't have control. Having control and having the ability is two different things. I have control over my finances, but it doesn't mean I have the ability to pay my bills."

While we may not have the ability to pay our bills, as Spirit Filled believers we do have the ability to speak and pray and sing in tongues at will. Speaking in tongues to edify ourselves is different a message in tongues and interpretation. We are also told to stir up the gifts that are in us.

When I pray in the Spirit or sing, I know that that language is very often different that when I am preaching or in a service setting. We should be praying daily in the Spirit. If we are walking in the Spirit, then it really should be second nature.

Like I said earlier, I can drive by an accident, or hear about someone needing prayer and I start out by praying in the Spirit. I don't have to get worked up or be in a special service. But I also do not pray out loud in certain settings.

I have been in services where there was a message in tongues given, and the minister in charge said he had the interpretation, but would give it at the end of the service. And he did!

J Ryan Herrington

Acts-celerater Posts: 627 **4/3/08 4:14 pm**

I understand what you're saying. The comparisson I am making however is that having control over something doesn't necessarily guarantee the ability to exercise that control.

What I think we're missing here is this: The Bible tells us that none of us are good, not one except God. Paul goes on to say our righteousness hangs like filthy rags next to Christ. We are constantly told in the scriptures that it is nothing of ourselves that we are saved or that we have done, but in all, it's Christ in us. When we say we can speak in tongues at will, we are elevating our ability to give ourselves an utterance to that of the Holy Spirit who gives the utterance. We elevate our fallen flesh man to do this deed. If you say, no it's Christ in us, then you're actually saying, it's the Holy Spirit giving us the utterance and it's not at our will.

You may drive by a wreck and begin to pray in tongues. Is it you or is the Holy Spirit praying through you seeing as you don't know what to pray?

I don't believe there is ever a point in which we can arrive that we are able to manifest the gifts of God and the abilities of the Spirit in and of ourselves. By attempting to do so, we inadvertently rob God of His glory by stating we are able to do this on our own. Who among us can encourage? All can to an extent, but don't we stop and thank God for the ability to have the right words to say or do we lay the ability on our education and just knowing people? I think it's a lot bigger than we think.

res0515

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1042 **4/3/08 5:12 pm**

Yes on our own our righteousness is as filthy rags. However, when we are born again, we are born into the family of God. We lift up holy hands. When we are Spirit filled, we put on the person of the Holy Ghost. We are no longer in sin and are new creatures in Christ.

And in answer to your question, it is me praying in the Holy Ghost.

We have been given authority to walk in that anointing. Jesus gave us that in his name. At a time of need in not when we should have to be worked up in order to operate in the gifts, it is time to operate in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost.

I am in no way implying that it is in and of ourselves. But it is because the Spirit dwells within us enabling us to do so.

Many times I have been in services where someone is giving a message in tongues and there is no doubt when they go from being in the Spirit to being in the flesh.

But if we walk in the Spirit then we can operate in the Spirit.

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Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **4/3/08 5:19 pm**

J Ryan Herrington

Acts-celerater Posts: 627 **4/3/08 5:42 pm**

And you know that how?

Bullseye77

Some food for thought by Ray Hughes

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1441 **4/3/08 7:49 pm**

Taken from Bro. Hughes website, this is a very good article.

SPEAKING WITH TONGUES AT WILL

Speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance is the evidence that the Holy Ghost has come to abide with us as the Comforter. The Comforter is the advocate, or strengthener in conflict, who comes alongside to help. So then, speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance is the announcement that the Helper has come to enable us to fulfill the Great Commission. His coming upon us means adequacy for vocation and ability for service.

In these last days of the outpouring of the Spirit, it is not uncommon for the subject of speaking with tongues to be discussed at length in the newspaper and through other news media. However, it is unfortunate that many of those who make an effort to deal with the subject have no background or knowledge of the experience, and therefore approach it from their limited framework of reference. For this reason there are varied and sundry opinions, many of which are not biblically based.

Since speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance is a biblical experience, the starting point of any explanation should be the Scripture and not the experience as such. The Word of God is the final authority in doctrine and practice. The starting point of the subject in the New Testament is Acts 2:4: “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”

There are those who contend that they can speak with tongues at will and use the scripture which states “they…..began to speak” (Acts 2:4) to support this theory. However, the scripture must be taken in its entirety. The latter part of the verse states, “as the Spirit gave them utterance.” Man yields his faculties to the Spirit, but he does not initiate the utterance. While he is not passive, he does not form the words to be spoken of his own accord. The Holy Spirit gives him the words. He speaks as the Spirit gives the utterance. Speaking with tongues has little or no significance if the Spirit does not give the utterance.

History reveals that there have been various cults which spoke with tongues, but it was evident that the tongues were not of the Spirit. It is not speaking with tongues that is the evidence of the baptism with the Holy Ghost, but it is speaking with tongues as the SPIRIT GIVES THE UTTERANCE that constitutes the initial evidence of the baptism with the Holy Ghost.

Likewise, speaking with tongues, as one of the nine spiritual gifts, (1 Corinthians 12:4-11), is not imparted to man to use at his own will. One person in relating his experience said, “The gift of tongues is mine, and I can speak in tongues at any time. I am in control of the gift; I am its steward, so to speak.” Moreover, Scripture declares, “But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will” 1 Corinthians 12:11). The Spirit operates as He wills and not as the individual wills. The high and lofty third person of the Godhead does not submit to the will of man to be used of him or manipulated according to his desires. Therefore, man cannot dictate to the Spirit, He cannot use the Spirit; the Spirit must use him. It is not, Do you have the Holy Spirit? But, Does the Holy Spirit have you?

There is a trend in some charismatic circles toward encouraging people to engage in singing in concert tongues. It is not the prerogative of a minister to direct a congregation in these exercises. It is a very blessed experience to sing in the Spirit and pray in the Spirit as set forth in the Word: “What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also” (1 Corinthians 14:15). But I must repeat that these are not precipitated by man nor directed by man. The Spirit must direct these exercises of worship. Again some place the emphasis upon “I will pray” or “I will sing,” indicating that man initiates the speaking at will; but even a cursory examination of the verse reveals that the exercise originates with the Spirit.

Man does not possess the ability to precondition candidates to speak with biblical tongues. There are no human techniques which can be used to teach candidates for the baptism of the Holy Ghost how to speak with tongues. Speaking with tongues is not a language to be taught by man; it is a spiritual gift given solely by the Spirit. It is not a learned experience, but rather a divinely imparted experience, which rules out the idea that classes can be conducted in which candidates learn certain words or syllables which will lead them to a spiritual language.

The enemy of our souls would seek to cheapen a very glorious experience by placing it on the fleshly human level, thus bringing it into disrepute and ineffectiveness. But those of us who have experienced this divine afflatus and the empowering spirit have no doubt about its biblical authenticity and its experiential reality. We are convinced that speaking with tongues does not have its source in the emotions of man but in the Spirit.

Ray H. Hughes
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On Target!!

Bullseye77

More thoughts from Dr. Hughes

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1441 **4/3/08 7:51 pm**

This article also taken from Bro. Hughes website.

AN ENDEAVOR TO MANIPULATE THE SPIRIT

There is a trend among some Pentecostals to endeavor to manipulate the Spirit. It is the will of God that we have full knowledge concerning matters which pertain to the Spirit. The Apostle Paul instructed the Corinthians: “Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant” (1 Corinthians 12:1). The apostle is saying literally: Concerning things of or pertaining to the Spirit, I want you to have an understanding. Those who would endeavor to use the Spirit, or the spiritual gifts, do no understand that power belongs unto God and that they are only the channels through whom God works. Man does not use the Spirit, but the Spirit in His sovereignty uses men as He wills. We yield ourselves to Him, and He words through us.
One person, in relating his experience, said, “The gift of tongues is mine. I can speak in tongues at any time. I am in control of the gift and I am its steward, so to speak….It is a tongue which is mine just like my command of the English language.” I am not questioning the sincerity of this person, but I stress again that we must go to the Word as our guide for all experiences. The Word of God says: “But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will” (1 Corinthians 12:11). The Spirit does not operate at the behest of the individual, but He works through the individual as He wills.
A person cannot turn speaking in tongues on and off like a faucet; he must speak as the Spirit gives utterance. There are those who will tell you quite frankly that speaking with tongues to them is a psychological release, or a catharsis, and that each morning they speak for personal refreshing. But there is no biblical premise for this type of human control of speaking with tongues. Tongues are a purposeful gift and are not given to be manipulated according to the fancies of men, nor to satisfy the curiosity of men. Tongues come not from man, but from God. Man is merely the vehicle for the transmission of the divine message.
In recent years there has been a great flair for the spectacular in religious circles, and there is danger of pursuing spiritual gifts for the glory of man or for display. Any religious exercise which focuses the attention upon man and does not draw attention to Jesus Christ is not in harmony with the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit seeks to draw attention to Jesus. He glorifies Christ and points people to Him.
Because the gifts of the Spirit are so precious and intriguing, people are attracted to them as was Simon, the sorcerer. Simon wanted this power so that he might use it for his own personal gain. But God has reserved His gifts for the confirmation of His Word and to meet the needs and emergencies of humanity. At all times the Holy Spirit’s operation must be according to His pattern-the Word.

Ray H. Hughes
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On Target!!

DHDRabbi

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13680 **4/3/08 8:43 pm**

Paul STILL had to instruct the Holy Spirit when to speak in church IF it is always the Spirit that initiates the speaking. Why? How would he have the audacity to tell people who speak as the Spirit gives the utterance to shut up? Yet, he does.

in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.

What gall!!

Randy Johnson

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 **4/4/08 8:31 am**

Randy Johnson

Re: Some food for thought by Ray Hughes

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 **4/4/08 8:40 am**

Randy Johnson

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 **4/4/08 8:52 am**

Randy Johnson

Re: Memory...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 **4/4/08 9:11 am**

J Ryan Herrington

Acts-celerater Posts: 627 **4/4/08 9:30 am**

I agree Pastor Randy that we don't become automations for the Holy Spirit. There is an act of human will. We have the choice to quench the Spirit or be obedient as He gives the utterance.

DHDRabbi

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13680 **4/4/08 10:22 am**

The fact remains that if Paul has to instruct believers when they can and cannot speak in tongues, it stands to reason that it is the believers' choice on when they speak. Otherwise, Paul is instructing the Holy Spirit when He can and cannot speak in a church service.

Think about this. Paul asks us to make sure there is an interpreter present before we give a message in tongues. If we don't choose when we speak, why would we be responsible for knowing if an interpreter was there? Wouldn't the Holy Spirit already know that?

Ichthus77

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1270 **4/4/08 11:38 am**

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Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **4/4/08 1:51 pm**