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Pentecostal: What we ARE NOT
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Post I like what I'm hearing...we're getting somewhere now... Mike Burgner
Could it be that pentecostalism has focused so much on the "initial evidence" of the baptism of the HG that we have forgotten the "purpose" of the HG? Take away speaking in tongues and what makes us any different from baptists? In the 20th century the baptist, and lately most emergent churches, have won thousands more souls and baptized them that we pentecostals have. I know for a fact that there are many emergent churches that do not believe as we do about tongues and pentecost, YET they are reaching thousands and lives are being changed. People are coming into their gatherings and getting set free and transformed. It's obvious that the HG is at work in these churches, though they don't speak in tongues. So, I ask again, take away tongues and what distinguishes us from them?
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Post Mike... Yo Dude
Quote:
Could it be that pentecostalism has focused so much on the "initial evidence" of the baptism of the HG that we have forgotten the "purpose" of the HG?


Too many Pentecostals do, I'm afraid. That's not Pentecost, thought--that's an error on their part.



Quote:
Take away speaking in tongues and what makes us any different from baptists?


Prophecies. Miracles. Healings. Revelations. Greater sensitivity to the move of the Spirit (in my experience). It's not just tongues that separates us, but perhaps tongues represents the difference--which is the immediate and current and real move of God in our midst, with signs and wonders.


Quote:
In the 20th century the baptist, and lately most emergent churches, have won thousands more souls and baptized them that we pentecostals have.


Where do you get this information? Pentecost is sweeping the third world. The most Christian nation on earth is Uganda, with many Pentecostals. I can't imagine that anyone is getting more people saved, in proportion, than Pentecostals--and especially Pentecostal missionaries...unless you mean in sheer size.


Quote:
I know for a fact that there are many emergent churches that do not believe as we do about tongues and pentecost, YET they are reaching thousands and lives are being changed. People are coming into their gatherings and getting set free and transformed. It's obvious that the HG is at work in these churches, though they don't speak in tongues. So, I ask again, take away tongues and what distinguishes us from them?


Well, there's no doubt that the same Holy Ghost is at work. No one could dispute that very well. The difference, however, is that receiving the Holy Ghost gives one the POTENTIAL (often not taken advantage of) of SO MUCH MORE.

In churches that do not teach such things, converts may not even be aware of the possibilities that the Holy Ghost brings (namely, the gifts of the Spirit and all that that entails). They are just as saved as everyone else, but not having received the FULL GOSPEL, they are somewhat in the same boat as those men whom Paul asked, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?"

Further, if God thought that all that was needed was whatever experience they are getting, then the Holy Ghost is just superfluous--just gravy. But I don't believe that! I like what TLL said: "Can you get to heaven without the Holy Ghost? I wouldn't even want to go to the 7-11 without the Holy Ghost!"
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Post Re: Pentecostal: What we ARE NOT Robert Langdon
Travis Johnson wrote:
How can we have churches full of "tongue talkers" who are gutless, passionless unreaching people? What does it matter if we "get the gift" but don't use it? Have we truly received the empowerment if we haven't and don't use it?

A Spirit Empowered church is a church that engages lost people with the gusto, that charges hell with a squirt gun, that rescues the hell bound without fear, that loves their neighbor recklessly and is willing to endure all kinds of foolishness so that the Kingdom of God can be expanded. A Spirit Empowered Church teaches fully what the Holy Spirit imparts to us. That teaching goes far beyond shouting, fiery preaching, sweating preachers, and exuberant music. That teaching goes into the neighborhood, the barrio, the ghetto, the grocery store, the school, the workplace, the doctor's office, the family and changes culture from within.

The Spirit empowered believer is an undercover agent doing espionage and razing hell wherever he goes.


It seems that your argument is, that when one receives the baptism of the Holy Ghost they cease to sin. I understand completely that many churches, pastors and laity have been hurt and wounded by people that seem to lead double lives. Speak in tongues on Sunday and back bite on Monday. Of course these things exist and the dirty little secret is, they exist in me and in you. I have seen students go to Lee and other “Christian” schools only to condemn their classmates for “unchristian” behavior and then leave and go have sex with their girlfriend or at least make it to “3rd base”.

The truth is, that just like Israel, there is also a Jacob that lives inside of us. Does it make it right? Of course not, but if God can use Jacob, I think that proves He can use and do whatever He wants. Some have asked about the scripture "Jacob I have loved; But Esau I have hated,” and asked, how could God hate Esau? I think a better question is, how can He love Jacob? … the same way He can love a confused, hypocritical college student and later use him for ministry … the same way He can love a hot tempered pastor that screams at his wife, but God uses him to minister to the church … should I go on? Should I keep going until I have hit each and every one of us?

How have we learned Christ? That is a huge question we all need to be asking each other. Have we learned him wrong? Do we not understand his grace and mercy? It seems we don’t …
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Post I have to go to bed but... KevinWallace
I think again we are assigning broad generalities trying to disprove the relevance and significance of Spirit baptism by spotlighting perhaps a group or even a majority who claim to be Pentecostal but lack the "other substantial" activities that accompany a Pentecostal church. You can name 10 emergent church that are exploding...I can name 10 Spirit filled, tongue talking churches exploding as well. I am afraid we have become disinfranchised with the excesses and the witnesslessness of these dead so called Spiritfilled churches, that we think the whole group under the Pentecostal umbrella are missing out on something special. Genuine authentic Pentecostal churches have something no Baptist church in town has...no matter how many they baptize and no many how many come. Baptist typically do have more people getting saved than Pentecostal churches. When you preach "Once Saved ALways Saved No Matter What ", you usually do grow a little quicker than a church declaring "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand".
What we have that a good, missional Baptist church doesn't is the Promise of the Father, the supernatural activity of the Holy Ghost in MANIFESTATION. No doubt the greatest miracle that could ever occur in someone's life is the miracle of New birth and regeneration...but the greatest Power ever given to be a witness and lead someone to that experience according to Acts 1:8 is the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Additionally I would insert that I would have a hard time trying to cast a devil out of some one in a seeker friendly setting...it just doesn't work well. I am not a person looking for the demonic to manifest every week. I can only tell you that when one shows up they are not persuaded to leave that person because of my ministerial file number, my clergy shirt and my bottle of oil. That demon has to come out because of the Power of the Holy Spirit living in me. And in the last 6 weeks we have had to cast the devil. I am pleased to report that the precious person of whom we cast the devil out is doing much better now that she came to Pentecostal church where the power of the Holy Spirit and the name and blood of Jesus set her free. In fact she has brought her family and all of them got saved. Consequently the same morning that the demon was cast out, she got saved and gloriously baptized in the Holy Spirit. No one saying "say tatatat" just taught her the truth from the Word, laid my hands on her and she was instantaneously filled with the Holy Spirit. Genuine Penetcostal churches don't need to remove or redefine the Pentecostal experience to shake the world...they simply need to use and exercise what Power they have been given.
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Post Re: I have to go to bed but... Travis Johnson
Kevin,

Let's return to the original proposition and end over generalizations coming from all sides. My original statement was:

Quote:
PENTECOST IS NOT:

-fiery, screaming preaching
-sweating preachers
-exuberant music and singing
-shouting
-a choir that grooves to the beat
-a pin-striped 4 button suit with matching hanky and tie
-a pastor that has an armor bearer
-hyper-prosperity, money grubbing offerings


The original proposition cannot be refuted using Scripture.

Obviously, Jesus didn't have pin-stripes or a choir. I'm sure he sweated being a carpenter/rabbi walking around in a dumpy, rural hick town in the Middle East. Sometimes, he whispered. Sometimes he shouted. You'd have to imagine that he did when he spoke to 20,000 with no sound system.

In the end when you look at His life and those of His followers you see that there's no style guide for Spirit-empowered preaching... no steepled building and no movie theater necessary to be one of His preachers in one of His churches.

Ultimately, no style is the standard. If it is, then we could begin culling away some significant men from our past like Lewis Willis, David Lemons, FJ May, Charles Conn, and present day leaders like Paul Walker, Paul Conn, Don Bowdle, and others who weren't/aren't stylized shouting sweating Pentecostals but who were/are thoroughly people of the Spirit, solid in doctrine and in practice.

Its a dangerous thing to raise a standard based on a southeast USA cultural emotional expression by which we define and grade the effectiveness of the moving of the Holy Spirit.

The work of the Holy Spirit does not bend around style. You have a style that is not Pentecostal. The style is Kevin. The same is true with me. If our style defines Pentecost, we have a low view of the Spirit because I can do your style separate from the Holy Spirit and no doubt you can do mine. We're crazy if we think that a human's style defines what Pentecost looks like.

So, when I say what Pentecost is not, I'm accurate. I'm accurate because these characteristics do not define Pentecost. They are not characteristics of the Holy Spirit. They may be practiced by some people, including myself...by people who experience, teach, and practice the Charismatic gifts. But, they in no way define the Holy Spirit.

He ministers to us. We speak to our culture. It doesn't matter what that looks like as long as it is Scripturally faithful and culturally comprehensible.
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Post Lewis Willis Louis Morgan
Lewis Willis... If I could be as sincere, humble and meek as this giant of the faith, then I will have served our Lord well. He's one of my heroes. Thanks for mentioning him, Travis.
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Post Travis KevinWallace
I respectively think that you are wrong in saying that these activities are not Pentecostal. It is wonderful to talk about what believe and how we define it…but show me then money. It is asinine to suppose that we can divorce our behavior from our belief. I think Pentecostal Native American Indians doing there dance in all their regalia is Pentecostal, I think Malayalam Indians going into intense fits of shouting and clapping is an expression of Pentecost. I think the gift of tongues and the gift of interpretation in operation on Sunday morning is a manifestation of Pentecost, I think David Boggs doing a sermon illustration on American Gladiators while operating under the anointing of the Holy Spirit is Pentecost. The point is, we spend our time posting threads about what Pentecost is not. There is a move on to strip the Pentecostal church of its uniqueness and behavior to the point that we are no different than the hip, pop culturally relevant church down the road. The question must be asked why the attack and criticism of Pentecostal behavior. Why not identify the other people groups of the world and their Pentecostal behavior as being NOT Pentecostal. Why the singling out of the South. Maybe it is me and I am just young and naive, but the suit wearing, sweaty loud preachers I grew up adoring never led me away from Christ but they sure did have something that I desired. They had the kind of connection to God that I long for. I did not say that they were Pentecost...I said they are expressions and reactions of the knowledge and experience of Pentecost. It seems to me that the move is own to change a behavior system of a group of men in the south so that we make sure that they are culturally relevant. The method by which we want to do this is to tell them what they are doing is in fact wrong and now listen to us and let us show you how to be Pentecostal. That seems at the least arrogant. I know you to be a humble servant hearted leader Travis. I do not believe that you are arrogant. I do know for a fact you are more passionate about reaching the lost than most men in your generation.
I don't think that the behaviors of which you spoke are a southeastern US thing, I have been in other countries on other continents preaching in a sweaty suit while I have been loudly and even quitely declaring truth. Those behaviors are not Pentecost, but they are Pentecostal why because without the Pentecostal activity within there would be no unction or passion to express the Gospel in that way.
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Post Re: Travis Louis Morgan
While I'm enjoying reading this nice debate-- and intentionally staying out of it-- I think this comment just made my week...

KevinWallace wrote:
Who in the Southern portion of the US ranks peed in our cheerios


Kevin and Travis are both super guys doing an amazing work for the Lord. And I love and respect them both very much. And, I think both are making valid points, even though I probably fall somewhere in the middle on my line of thinking. But then again, after what I've learned about myself from one or two others on this board in recent weeks, I may not know much. Apparently I am unqualified to teach, train, or lead. But hey, at least Jesus and my mama believe in me. Wink
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Post Margie Poteat... Yo Dude
Margie Poteat of the United Christian Church in Cleveland, TN, is one of the most soft-spoken "preachers" I've ever heard. Never lifted her voice. Yet it was Pentecost! Why? Because you could tell there was something beyond just a thoughtful, reasoned message. She overflowed with the grace of God.

Pentecost may be "expressed" different ways, and still be recognizeably Pentecost.

And not every church has "spiritual manifestations" every service.

The difference is--or at least one of them--is that THAT SORT OF MOVE is welcomed, encouraged, invited, desired, cultivated, etc.
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Post RE: Margie Poteat Louis Morgan
I love that woman!! She has blessed my life through her gentle spirit, kindness, and ministry.
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Post Louis... Yo Dude
Then you know that true Pentecost can look very different from our stereotypes...and yet be full-blown Pentecost. I could listen to her minister for hours--it's so sweet, so rich, and so infused with the anointing.

Glad somebody else knows her!
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Post Re: Travis Travis Johnson
KevinWallace wrote:
I respectively think that you are wrong in saying that these activities are not Pentecostal.


Again, I'd be interested in seeing Scripture that establishes sweaty, fiery preaching as "Pentecostal."

Quote:
It is wonderful to talk about what believe and how we define it…but show me then money. It is asinine to suppose that we can divorce our behavior from our belief.


What money am I supposed to show? I'm not suggesting we divorce practice from belief. I've never done that. I'm suggesting it is misguided to assign cultural practices (sweaty and fiery preaching) as the definition of the Charismata. By that definition, one might deem Bobby Knight a Pentecostal.

Quote:
I think Pentecostal Native American Indians doing there dance in all their regalia is Pentecostal, I think Malayalam Indians going into intense fits of shouting and clapping is an expression of Pentecost. I think the gift of tongues and the gift of interpretation in operation on Sunday morning is a manifestation of Pentecost, I think David Boggs doing a sermon illustration on American Gladiators while operating under the anointing of the Holy Spirit is Pentecost.


The last time I saw my Grandpa Roberts, a godly Pentecostal pastor, he took me by the arm and in a whisper, he said: " "I’m going to tell you the same thing Jesus told Peter. ‘Feed my sheep. Feed my lambs. Don’t sheer them. Don’t fleece them. Don’t try to separate them from the goats. Just feed them." A few days later, he gathered the family, prayed over them. As he prayed, the Holy Spirit prayed through him. And, then he died. He was one of the most tender, powerful, masculine, heroic, Spirit led men I've ever known.'

I can't say I have ever remembered him sweating or yelling while he preached.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how Pentecostal would he be?

Now, while that may not be a fair question...that I would invoke a personal experience. But, I do want it to illustrate the fact that expression is not a sign of Pentecost. Pentecostals may do these things. But, they do not define or rank how Pentecostal a preacher or person is.

Quote:
The point is, we spend our time posting threads about what Pentecost is not. There is a move on to strip the Pentecostal church of its uniqueness and behavior to the point that we are no different than the hip, pop culturally relevant church down the road.


Who is doing this? I've asked this to at least 3-4 people in the last several days making these types of statements. I think if we're going to make these kinds of overgeneralizations, we ought to be able to back them up with at least one or two examples.

Quote:
The question must be asked why the attack and criticism of Pentecostal behavior.


Again, who is attacking Pentecostal behavior?

Quote:
Why not identify the other people groups of the world and their Pentecostal behavior as being NOT Pentecostal. Why the singling out of the South.


We are a southern church. As a kid born in Goldsboro, NC who has family in Kannapolis, NC, Atlanta, GA, Cleveland, TN, Huntsville, AL, Addison, AL, Mississippi, Louisiana, and a host of other southern states who are involved in COG ministry, I'm somewhat qualified to point out some of the dysfunction we face as a southern denomination trying to apply a 2,000 year old message and a move of the Holy Spirit that fell in a dusty middle eastern town with the Appalachian cultural norms that have been passed down to us over the last 100 years.
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Post I'm just going to jump in here drmrc
I have been reading the dialogue going on in this thread with interest. Much of the discussion reveals the challenge of communication...the sheer difficulty in understanding the other person and in articulating our ideas in an open rather than defensive way. We all do this...I do it a lot.

I just finished a series of messages at our church from the book of Acts. I called it "Ancient Future." As I looked at the church in Acts, I felt a deep conviction come over me. While I would like to think that all the messages I preach impact "me" deeply, I can truly say I found myself on my knees and weeping much as I prepared these messages. When I look at the church--City Church included--I often ask "Is this what Jesus had in mind?"

The picture of the early church is a community that was missional at its core. The mission of Jesus that he articulated to them in Acts 1:8 (his absolute final words on earth), was the driving force of that church. Everything else was secondary. Nothing else matter but the mission. They were a Spirit-driven church...a movement (not an institution) that could only be explained by the presence of the Holy Spirit being on them and in them. They were a connecting church...a true community, not just an audience that enjoyed the gifted "performance" of a few but Christ-follower who connected at the deepest level of their soul around the mission of Jesus. They were also a transforming community.

It was this message--a transforming community--that impacted me the most. As the church expanded outside its launching center (Jerusalem)--as Jesus said it would--they encountered cultures that were unfamiliar and unknown to them. Gentiles were receiving the message of Jesus and becoming Christ followers. They knew nothing about the Jewish traditions of the church in Jerusalem. This was the church at Antioch, where they were called Christians for the first time. The traditionalists (not ungodly, evil people, but Christ followers who held strong convictions about maintaining the customs of the original church in Jerusalem) were happy to welcome these Gentiles into the faith as long as they "did it the right way" (that is become Jews first). This meant that the men would have to have surgery (circumcision) before baptized. This whole conflict led to the Acts 15 council in Jerusalem.

The meeting in Jerusalem was a doctrinal meeting. It was a missional meeting. It was a meeting about a changing cultural environment and how the church was going to respond to it. This is a critical meeting. I am a Christian today because of the decision they made. (I am a Gentile and had the traditionalist prevailed, I would have never heard the Gospel.). On that day, the church "changed"--better they "transformed."

James gave the decision saying, "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles (we would say the "unchurched") who are turning to God. Acts 15:19, NIV). This verse burned in my heart. Whatever we do in church, how we dress, how we talk, how we preach, how we sing...whatever...as long as it is not making it difficult for the lost to come to God, I am for it. I will not be critical of it.

Being "pentecostal" is not a style, a dress code, or a form of music. All and I repeat ALL of that is cultural. It is not the core of Acts Christianity. It's about the mission of Jesus and transforming our methods, styles, etc. in whatever form or fashion is required to not make it difficult for people to come to God.

Different cultural expressions work in the cultural arena in which they are relevant. We must do the hard work that the early church did. We must look at the culture we are attempting to reach and to communicate with and ask "is what we are doing making it difficult for the lost to hear the Gospel and come to God." If it is, we will change it. This is not a one-time decision. We will have to do this type of evaluation under the leading of the Holy Spirit constantly because it's not about us...it's about the mission.

It is interesting that at the end of the Council in Jerusalem, James made a simply requests. He asked that the Gentiles avoid certain foods that the traditonalists found very offensive. I often wondered about why this odd requirement if everything else had been moved off the table. Then, it hit me. What James was saying was "We really do want to eat together (i.e., have fellowship with you). Could you help us with this?' What a powerful message. While the Jerusalem church and the Antioch church were totally different in style, methods, etc. The desire of the ancient church was that they be able to eat together and embrace the fellowship of the Body of Christ. What a great idea.

Actscelerate seems to bog down often into "Pentecostal" and "emergent" camps (although it appears we all struggle with these descriptives). Would it not be great to think that these are just descriptions like "Jerusalem church" and "Antioch church" and would it not be great if we embraced them as two expressions of the same "Acts church" and eat together.

The ancient church was a missional, Spirit-driven, connecting, transforming, difference-making church. To me that is what it means to be pentcostal--whatever cultural form it takes.

Well, I am sure that this long post is filled with all the communication challenges that typing fast on a keyboard has. Hope some of this made sense. You're all great guys and gals.

Mike Chapman

PS: I am NOT hawking my sermons. But, a much better explanation of all this is found on our website www.thecitychurch.cc under the "sermon" icon.
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Post Travis KevinWallace
Dr Chpaman that was brilliant diagnostic...very good stuff.
Travis, first and foremost I love you as a brother in Christ as i do every other emergent brother involved in this forum. I want to make sure my spirit and attitude are not judgemental or legalistic. I concur with Dr Chapman in that these boards are lousy at capturing the spirit or attitude that accompanies the post. If any of mine seemed tainted with sharpness or self righteous haughtiness please accpet my earnest apology.
I want to establish the fact that I never said that the stereotypical behavior (sweating, suit wearing, shouting) that emergents often criticize are the acid tests that indicate and authenticate the Presence of true Pentecost. I read the Bible almost everyday of my life... I know that there are no scriptures that articulate the suit wearing preachers who sweat and holler are the Pentecostal ones...this is indeed shallow and unfortunate. There are also no scriptures that say flip flops and cargo pants are the formula either. It is cultural...you have a button down shirt w/ jeans and no tie, I have a 3 piece suit and some Johnston and Murphy's, I sweat while I preach others sit and drink coffee. The reality is those do not make us Pentecostal or not.

A presence of passion to spread the Gospel makes us Pentecostal, a Presence of Supernatural Power Holy Spirit operation makes us Pentecostal, deep abiding unction from the Holy Spirit makes us Pentecostal, Speaking in unknown tongues makes us Pentecostal, embracing the suddenly kairos moments in which the Holy Spirit invades our lives and empowers us for His service makes us Pentecostal and taking those moments and that Power and embracing that Person of the Godhead and channelling that experience into a missional mindset that causes us to quit hiding behind the church walls from the world and go out and engage and confront it, is what makes us Pentecostal.

I know men who wear jeans while they do that and I kow men who wear suits...I know men who cry and men who declare loudly...I am not concerned about confronting cultural differences I am most concerned that people are confronting the content and validity of the classical Pentecostal movement.
And if portions of history are any indicator of the future, then without guarding the virginal truths of the Pentecostal church (the content not the style) I fear we will one day we will become a relevant hip church void of power and supernatural operation of the Presence of God.
I'll say this and I will be done...I will wear my suit, and pray and weep and sweat and proclaim loudly and speak in tongues (as the Spirit gives the utterance) until the Lord returns. I think it is incredible that others wear jeans and a t shirt and preach and follow the Spirit's lead and have a greater impact then my church has.
Whatever we do let us not lose the Power of God that accompanies the baptism of the Holy Spirit. For while we can produce relevance by changing our styles and produce social compatability by adapting to our culture we will not change the world without the Power that the early church had.
Let me close again by saying I have 2 sons and 2 daughters... It is my dream one day to pass the baton off to my children. Maybe if God is willing to even let them pastor Mountain Meadows one day. It is the baton I recieved from a handful of spiritual fathers and mentors who charged me to be faithful. It is hard for anyone to deny that there is great push to abandon fundamental tenants of the faith in the american church. I see people forsaking everlasting truths that they believed their whole lives. And why should I be shocked apostles harmoniously declared such would be the case in the final hour. I refuse to be part of a movement that hands my children less of God's glory than was given to me. I saw goiters disappear, I saw staggering drunks sober up in minutes after stumbling to the altar for salvation, I saw a literal cloud or mist like manifestation of the Glory of God fill that little church I was raised in. I saw preacher who passionately proclaimed the Gospel and confronted injustices ans sins in our society without fear. Were they leaglistic in some areas? yes. Are we perfect? No (at least I am not) Did I understand what those old saints were saying or doing as they laid on the altar in prayer time and wept and wailed before the Lord? No. But it made a lasting impression and an indelible mark on my soul. God only knows the countless times spiritual mothers and fathers prayed for the Lord to keep me and use me for His Glory. I wouldn't be anything in life without those precious people. I guess what I am trying to say is don't be ashamed of it... let us work together to make sure that the Church of God (most importantly the church at large) doesn't turn into a bloodless, powerless, spineless, crossless movement that is no different than the social hootnanny down the road.

Lord do something in me that makes the world want you...
In the strong name of Jesus, Amen
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Post Pastor Tom KevinWallace
I heard excerps from it, but do to my schedule I only caught bits and pieces...please shed some light
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Post Thank You Mike Chapman!!! Mike Burgner
Wow! What a post man. I'm so glad you inserted those words of wisdom. I need to say that I agree with the thought that this forum doesn't reveal our attitude and sometimes passion may be mistaken for arrogance. If I've come across as having a mean attitude about this issue, I'm sorry...I never intended to be that way.

Mike Chapman summed up everything I've been trying to get across...

James gave the decision saying, "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles (we would say the "unchurched") who are turning to God. Acts 15:19, NIV). This verse burned in my heart. Whatever we do in church, how we dress, how we talk, how we preach, how we sing...whatever...as long as it is not making it difficult for the lost to come to God, I am for it. I will not be critical of it

It's not about style---it's about reaping the harvest. It's not about how we look--it's about reaping the harvest. My point is that we must find a way to be pentecostal and culturally relevant. Being pentecostal is operating under the supernatural power of God to win souls and make disciples. That mission---wining souls and making disciples---is why we need the power of pentecost. We don't need it to accessorize our style and culture. We need it to impact culture.

Therefore, if must must fine-tune a few issues with Pentecost so as not to prevent the postmodern, postchristian culture from coming in let's do it!

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3/29/08 6:34 am


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Post Louis Morgan
Mike, I agree with you.
Pastor Mike is the man!!
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Post Travis a pastor
Your response to Pentecost reminded me of a book I am reading 'The Big Idea' by Dave Ferguson. His first chapter is titled "No more Christians". His reason for saying this is that the definition of Christian is blurred by the majority of "Christians" who are indistinguishable from non Christians!
I am excited that you and your church are living proof that Pentecost is still relevant, what ever you call it Wink

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4/2/08 10:48 am


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Post Re: Travis Travis Johnson
a pastor wrote:
Your response to Pentecost reminded me of a book I am reading 'The Big Idea' by Dave Ferguson. His first chapter is titled "No more Christians". His reason for saying this is that the definition of Christian is blurred by the majority of "Christians" who are indistinguishable from non Christians!
I am excited that you and your church are living proof that Pentecost is still relevant, what ever you call it Wink


Thanks. And, I hope you're enjoying The Big Idea...great book.

You know, I believe theology is important. We're in the middle of a 6 week series on the person of Jesus. Then, it looks like we'll be hitting a 4 week series on Romans 8:28-39. Then, we'll hit a 14 week series through the book of Philippians which covers so many foundational issues for the church. So, we're not doing fluff sermons. We have a very high view of Scripture.

But, it seems like in our quest for good theology, we come up with words to describe our theology and then begin to worship the words and reassign new meaning to those words. The result is the good theology we initially desired gets redefined and we're left, in this case, worshiping culture as opposed to the object of our theology.

Dave Ferguson, among others, has made the same point with the term "Christian." In South Florida, no one goes to church. But, everyone is a "Christian." It's kind of like a designer label like "Gucci." Good stuff, a pastor!
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