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 Re: Should Fallen Pastors be Restored to the Pastorate? |
notwanghere |
| TheoloJohn wrote: | | It is difficult to imagine how such a man could ever again qualify as a NT bishop or elder according 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, "blameless" and "having a good reputation among outsiders." |
Excellent point. As I stated earlier, I had not reached an objective position, but am close to concluding there should be no restoration to ministry. I welcome objective scriptural resonses specific to the office of elder/bishop which would lead to other conclusions. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1794
2/18/06 11:51 pm
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| Hey Twang, Theolojohn And I Are A Tag Team |
A Single Life |
Theo gave you an exhaustive Scriptural exposition and I threw in the worldly, logical, albeit sarcastic remedy. It's just about over.
The main problem, as I see it, is a man decides he wants to be a Pastor. He thinks he has the qualifications so he tells everyone he is saved, goes to school, gets a Church and builds big numbers.
He is in a position to help troubled members. He helps the males and helps himself to the troubled females. Then he continues his charade because he knows he is smarter than the congregation and God.
The next step to me is pivotal. Does he feel guilt and repent or is he caught/exposed.
If he is caught/exposed, you will never know anything. You already know he thinks he is smarter than the congregation and God. But you will never know how many affairs he has had. You will never know if he is saved. You will never know if he has repented. You will never know if he will fall to the temptation again unless you put him back in charge.
If his Church is small and blighted the decision is clear. But if he has been 'successful' in his pastorate there is an overwhelming temptation to use carnal wisdom and figure out some way to restore him. We need 'successful' pastors even if they occasionally are caught with their hand in the till.
Theo has already pointed out that the Scripture is clear. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 188
2/19/06 6:02 am
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| Not all adultery is the same |
Porpoise Driven Neptune |
I would draw a distinction between a) a preacher who is tempted & commits a single act of adultery before repenting, and b) a minister who carries on a long term adulterous relationship.
It seems to me that the latter has compounded the sexual sin by continual & habitual lying. It would be hard to listen to such a person preach without thinking, "I wonder if he's lying to me again". |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 969
2/19/06 8:33 am
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| Re: Wouldn't It Be Great |
Porpoise Driven Neptune |
| BV COG wrote: | | That when a poster "falls" (gets banned) on the board that all the posters on the board decides the restoration process of the fallen poster? |
Of course you could simply pass a rule that when a poster is banned their post total is reset to zero. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 969
2/19/06 8:35 am
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| Re: Should Fallen Pastors be Restored to the Pastorate? |
TheoloJohn |
I think much of the problem underlying this whole issue is our modern concept of pastoring as "a profession," like being a doctor, lawyer, teacher, etc. Behind the desire for a pastor who commits adultery (a wolf in sheep's clothing, actually) to "get back into the (pulpit) ministry" is careerism, a desire for prestige, power and control over others.
I don't think a "fallen pastor" would necessarily be forbidden from doing lots of "ministry" things, all of which would depend on how much of a servant he desired to be. However, trusting him again with a position of leadership and authority would not be a wise choice, even if he only committed adultery once.
By such an egregious violation of the sacred trust of the ministry, (not to mention such a baldfaced affront to the blood and Spirit of Christ which had formerly sanctified him) the so-called pastor has done irreparable damage to his victim(s) and can really never again be trusted with such authority. The door of repentance is open to him for full reconciliation with God, just as it is for any who sin (1 John 2:1). However, he cannot ever again be considered "above reproach," and as having "self-control," which 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 plainly present as eternal standards for anyone who desires the office of a bishop or elder in God's church.
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"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006 |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
2/19/06 10:33 am
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| Re: Not all adultery is the same |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Porpoise Driven Neptune wrote: | | I would draw a distinction between a) a preacher who is tempted & commits a single act of adultery before repenting, and b) a minister who carries on a long term adulterous relationship. |
Would the above criteria also hold true for pedophilia, fornication or homosexuality? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
2/19/06 2:03 pm
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| Re: Should Fallen Pastors be Restored to the Pastorate? |
TheoloJohn |
I think a big part of the problem of "fallen ministers" is that we often elevate a man to a leadership position MUCH too hastily.
1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
In my mind, a younger man who feels called to preach (and who may have a very apparent anointing to preach) should be sternly warned by his mentoring pastor all of the pitfalls of ministry, and that unless God has given him the gift of celibacy (like Paul had), he really should deeply ponder the great responsibility that being a minister of the gospel will place on him. He should be powerfully exhorted to "flee youthful lusts," and to be, like Timothy, "an example" for all. If God has not given him the gift of continent celibacy, he should most definitely seek to become "the husband of one wife" before he aspires to the office of bishop or senior pastor. The same general principles would apply to an immature (novice) Christian.
No matter how one may attempt to splice and dice the apostolic standards for bishops set down by Paul in 1 Tim. 3, at the very least a bishop must be a committed, faithful husband and a responsible father (ruling his own house well) if he has children.
John
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"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006 |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
2/19/06 8:23 pm
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| King David murdered his loyal soldier, Uriah, to get... |
John T. Johnson |
Bath-Sheba for himself, with whom he had had an affair.
Would his position be considered equivalent to a pastorate of today? Or maybe a high church office?
Some say many of David's most soul searching and God exalting Psalms were written after his great moral failure. I believe it is true that great human failures provide disproportionately greater opportunities from God to accomplish more, so that God gets the glory rather than man. It humbles the man, too.
His Grace is sufficient for every need. |
Member
Posts: 47
2/19/06 8:57 pm
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| Re: Should Fallen Pastors be Restored to the Pastorate? |
TheoloJohn |
After his affair with Bathsheba, David quite obviously would not have been qualified for the New Testament office of bishop--that doesn't mean he would be barred from writing some very moving poetry. In fact, because of his past, God disqualified David from building the Temple in Jerusalem. How unfair of God!
David's willful sin with Bathsheba in no way lowers the bar for anyone else who would aspire to leadership, least of all the "blameless" standard laid down for bishops.
_________________
"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006 |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
2/19/06 9:09 pm
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| Was is it not David's warriorhood which disqualified him |
John T. Johnson |
from building the Temple, rather than his adultery? Accuracy in posting gains support for one's view points.
Is authorship of The Inspired Word, i. e., David's Psalmistry, analogous to writing poetry? Anyone can write poetry, some of it can even be good poetry.
But God has to choose, explicitly, who would write The Word, and in David's case He chose an ex-offender.
edited to add:
PS: Theo, David would have been disqualified before his affair with Bath-Sheba, given his polygamous lifestyle. |
Member
Posts: 47
2/20/06 5:00 pm
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| Re: King David murdered his loyal soldier, Uriah, to get... |
SKT |
| John T. Johnson wrote: | Bath-Sheba for himself, with whom he had had an affair.
Would his position be considered equivalent to a pastorate of today? Or maybe a high church office?
Some say many of David's most soul searching and God exalting Psalms were written after his great moral failure. I believe it is true that great human failures provide disproportionately greater opportunities from God to accomplish more, so that God gets the glory rather than man. It humbles the man, too.
His Grace is sufficient for every need. |
This is not a worthwhile comparison. David was not a Priest. He was the King. His responsibilities were of managing the practical kingdom of Israel. Sure, he was very spiritual, but he was not a Priest and, perhaps more to the point, not elected.
To your point about his authoring many Psalms following his affair, he didn't have to hold any position at all to contribute prophetically inspired writings. Prophets don't have to be elders or pastors to contribute prophecy, do they?
Lastly, God's personal acceptance of an individual is not necessarily His endorsement of their ministry. |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 58
2/20/06 5:13 pm
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| Re: Should Fallen Pastors be Restored to the Pastorate? |
singer4him |
| TheoloJohn wrote: |
In my mind, a younger man who feels called to preach (and who may have a very apparent anointing to preach) should be sternly warned by his mentoring pastor all of the pitfalls of ministry... |
Many of our problems today are that so many Lead Pastors, Senior Pastors, whatever you would like to call them, do not mentor!!!  When my husband first came to MS, we served under pastors who were so jealous over a young man who was zealous and reaching young people for God that they would not take him under their wing to help him to become even more successful, much less warn him of any pitfalls of becoming a Lead Pastor. What a shame!
Please don't take this post wrong. It is not meant to put a feather in our caps. Anything that we are today, we are because of the amazing grace of God! I guess going down that road has given us a different outlook on things and we have purposed to help those who are coming up behind us in the ministry to be successful. We pray that they will become even more successful that we ever are. After all, aren't we all in this thing together, striving for a common goal, to win folks to the Lord?
Just my $.02!  |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
2/20/06 5:18 pm
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| Accuracy in posting... |
TheoloJohn |
| John T. Johnson wrote: | | from building the Temple, rather than his adultery?Accuracy in posting gains support for one's view points. |
You really should be more accurate yourself.  I never said David's adultery disqualified him from building the Temple. My point was he was disqualified from some ministry (building the Temple) due to his past.
| Quote: | | Is authorship of The Inspired Word, i. e., David's Psalmistry, analogous to writing poetry? Anyone can write poetry, some of it can even be good poetry. |
Again, please strive to keep yourself to the "accurate" standard you set forth for others, 'kay? My saying he wrote poetry was true. I never said it was not inspired poetry, for that was not germane to my point--which was simply that writing poetry does not measure up to the New Testament standard for being a bishop in God's church (even if truly inspired poetry).
| Quote: | edited to add:
PS: Theo, David would have been disqualified before his affair with Bath-Sheba, given his polygamous lifestyle. |
Thank you for your accuracy in observing this important point. The fact that I did not mention it previously doesn't mean I was not aware of it, and it certainly does nothing but support my contention; i.e., that King David was not qualified to be a New Testament bishop, and never could have been, due to his choices in life.
_________________
"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006
Last edited by TheoloJohn on 2/21/06 4:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
2/21/06 2:17 am
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| Re: Not all adultery is the same |
Porpoise Driven Neptune |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | Porpoise Driven Neptune wrote: | | I would draw a distinction between a) a preacher who is tempted & commits a single act of adultery before repenting, and b) a minister who carries on a long term adulterous relationship. |
Would the above criteria also hold true for pedophilia, fornication or homosexuality? |
Well, Old Timer, in my book the same would hold true to fornication. This is because fornication is, like adultery, doing something that is natural & wholesame but outside of the God-ordained setting for it (marriage). Pedophilia & homosexuality are different, IMHO, because they are wrong at all times & are the outcome of a truly depraved heart. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 969
2/21/06 3:29 am
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| Only God has the ability to forget like that... |
roughridercog |
I'm afraid that the adultery will be an albatross around the neck for the rest of that person's life. There are several things this person can do if they are not very well known (ie, Swaggart, Baker).
I think the person should have repented and spent some time being discipled and mentored. He will need this time to work on his family and try to see the holes in his life plugged from whence the temptation came.
1. They can relocate to an area where they are lesser known.
2. They can either go to a different denomination or go independent.
3. They can take a tiny little church in the middle of nowhere and we can see what God can do with them.
But back in the mind of the individual will be the lurking fear that someone will find out, bring it again to the light in an attempt to undo everything God is doing in their life and in the lives of others.
But that's just this preachers opinion.
What has happened in years past is we've had men caught in moral trouble and rather than deal with the problem, an AB has allowed them to move to a mission state. It's hard enough in a mission state. In my opinion, to be successful in one of those states is more difficult than in the Bible belt.
I believe in accountability and I believe in restoration. |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25305
2/21/06 8:11 am
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| Re: Only God has the ability to forget like that... |
Memory03 |
| roughridercog wrote: | I'm afraid that the adultery will be an albatross around the neck for the rest of that person's life. There are several things this person can do if they are not very well known (ie, Swaggart, Baker).
I think the person should have repented and spent some time being discipled and mentored. He will need this time to work on his family and try to see the holes in his life plugged from whence the temptation came.
1. They can relocate to an area where they are lesser known.
2. They can either go to a different denomination or go independent.
3. They can take a tiny little church in the middle of nowhere and we can see what God can do with them.
But back in the mind of the individual will be the lurking fear that someone will find out, bring it again to the light in an attempt to undo everything God is doing in their life and in the lives of others.
But that's just this preachers opinion.
What has happened in years past is we've had men caught in moral trouble and rather than deal with the problem, an AB has allowed them to move to a mission state. It's hard enough in a mission state. In my opinion, to be successful in one of those states is more difficult than in the Bible belt.
I believe in accountability and I believe in restoration. |
thats human nature whether we like it or not.
_________________
Be Blessed!
Memory03
8233 post at the original Acts Board...
Real Men get their haircut in a Barber Shop... The rest go to beauty parlors... |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 21953
2/21/06 8:53 am
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| Remember your chains!! |
Etowah Boy |
Dear OTCP,
Good topic for discussion...
I feel that we must remember that our God is married to the backslider....
Did God ever use David again after the rooftop sin with Bathsheba?
We have to remember our chains...the prison that once held you!!!!
All of us have them, yet God in his wisdom. And in the ultimate restoration program saw fit to use us.....
Restoration is a must!!! No doubt about it...
But it is not cut and dried...
Every situation is different....
We need to help the fallen minister...he has stumbled, but don't count him out of the fight....
It is our job...not to debate...but to actively "come along side" of the fallen minister and restore him as Christ commands...
I believe that it was Christ who stated, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
So there we have it...
Pray more....debate the issue less!!!!
Restore our brother....not just a program...but take an active role....
God sees our sins like telephone polls from an airplane.....
Responding from Alabama
Dr. Etowah Boy |
New Member
Posts: 19
2/21/06 12:49 pm
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bigmansam |
| yes I do, if he has repented of his sins who are we to stop him, if God forgives him, then why can't we? |
New Member
Posts: 21
8/17/07 9:25 pm
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| What about a pastor whose wife left him after he had left |
happytobeback |
the Church of God. Never knew the reason for leaving the church. Had permission from the GO to go to a nearby city and start a Church of God.He was a ordained bishop but banned by the GO to set the new church in the Church of God, two men from Cleveland was going to set the church into the church. I denied them the from doing that.
I had paid the bills, build a congregation and the Church of God would not allow me to to set the church.
The church grew.
_________________
Richard W. Kennedy
Explainer of the Word |
Friendly Face
Posts: 160
11/10/07 7:29 pm
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| Re: Should Fallen Pastors be Restored to the Pastorate? |
flimflam |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | When I say "FALLEN," I mean, if a feller meets all the criteria listed below, should he "EVER" be allowed to pastor agin?
1. He is servin in a pastorate?
2. While servin in the pastorate he commits physical adultery.
3. The moral failure becomes public.
Now notice, I didnt say:
Can he be forgiven an be restored to fellership with God?
Can he be restored to the church?
Can he ever serve in a limited way sommers in ministry?
A fallen one should be able to pastor again but only after he has repented and proved himself again. He should be given a length of time(not sure how long that should be) to sit under another pastor until that pastor over him feels he is ready to care for a flock.
But, Should this feller "EVER" be allowed to pastor agin? |
_________________
Growing Old Is Not For Wimps |
Member
Posts: 37
11/12/07 11:34 pm
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