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Carolyn Smith |
It seems to me that by appealing to the Exec Committee, that Travis was seeing that his future was left to men that he could trust and that the COG could trust. I "think" Travis is a former member of the EC?
It's frightening to think that a well-respected minister who has stood up against evil repeatedly could lose his entire church and ministry over a social media post. Though I'm sure he'd start over in the same place and open an independent church with the same people.
OTOH, it's part of the price to pay for centralized government, which has its good and bad sides,
It's interesting that this is one of the few places this issue can be discussed.
_________________
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5913
3/8/24 6:32 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
Travis has served on the Council of 18 in the past, which is part of the Executive Council, but he has never been elected to the Executive Committee, also known as “the top five.”
In my above posts, when I use the abbreviation, “EC,” I refer only to the Exec Committee.
https://churchofgod.org/leadership/international-executive-council/
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 3/8/24 8:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12799
3/8/24 8:11 am
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| Inside Source |
FG Minister |
I know what happened behind the scenes but am not at liberty to divulge it. I will just say this - as a pastor, there have been times when people have made a wrong assumption about something I supposedly said or did. It's a horrible feeling when you know people in your congregation have reached an opinion about you that is not true at all. But what is worse is that I have gone to people and tried to clear my name and they don't want to hear my side of the story. I think this is one of the most frustrating parts of being a pastor - when people refuse to hear my side of what transpired.
I am told the professor has a clean record. He has never written or taught anything that is pro-LGBTQ. Nothing at all. Two examining boards found that to be true. But on Face Book he was painted as being pro-LGBTQ because he attended the Episcopal Church twice with his wife. If this professor, a COG member, is in fact NOT pro-LGBTQ, then he has been maligned and his career could be in jeopardy.
I do not agree with a lot of you who believe that taking communion twice at an LGBTQ affirming congregation makes you LGBTQ affirming. I do not see your argument whatsoever. I do not believe that taking communion automatically causes one to be in league with everything that local church believes. If guilt by association is now the standard by which we are judged, God help us all!
I know for a fact that I shop in grocery stores that sale alcohol. Am I now sympathetic to alcoholism?
I have had surgery at a hospital that performs abortions. Am I now pro-choice?
Be careful folks. According to all who investigated, this professor is not LGBTQ affirming. He was found to be guilty by simply attending church with his wife and taking communion at a church that is LGBTQ affirming. Judge not lest you be judged the same way. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 875
3/8/24 8:25 am
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| Re: Inside Source |
Mat |
| FG Minister wrote: | I know what happened behind the scenes but am not at liberty to divulge it. I will just say this - as a pastor, there have been times when people have made a wrong assumption about something I supposedly said or did. It's a horrible feeling when you know people in your congregation have reached an opinion about you that is not true at all. But what is worse is that I have gone to people and tried to clear my name and they don't want to hear my side of the story. I think this is one of the most frustrating parts of being a pastor - when people refuse to hear my side of what transpired.
I am told the professor has a clean record. He has never written or taught anything that is pro-LGBTQ. Nothing at all. Two examining boards found that to be true. But on Face Book he was painted as being pro-LGBTQ because he attended the Episcopal Church twice with his wife. If this professor, a COG member, is in fact NOT pro-LGBTQ, then he has been maligned and his career could be in jeopardy.
I do not agree with a lot of you who believe that taking communion twice at an LGBTQ affirming congregation makes you LGBTQ affirming. I do not see your argument whatsoever. I do not believe that taking communion automatically causes one to be in league with everything that local church believes. If guilt by association is now the standard by which we are judged, God help us all!
I know for a fact that I shop in grocery stores that sale alcohol. Am I now sympathetic to alcoholism?
I have had surgery at a hospital that performs abortions. Am I now pro-choice?
Be careful folks. According to all who investigated, this professor is not LGBTQ affirming. He was found to be guilty by simply attending church with his wife and taking communion at a church that is LGBTQ affirming. Judge not lest you be judged the same way. |
I too have attended Episcopal church services, but I did not take communion or go the altar and cross my arms to receive just a blessing from the priest (they are not really "priest" in the RCC since, but often called by that title). The same is true for the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox services I have attended.
Being ecumenical minded, that is working with the faith community, knowing their beliefs and being respectful in their service traditions is different from being in communion with them. Like eating meat offered to idols, it means nothing to me, but for the sake of those who put their faith in it, I abstain.
Since the war in Gaza started last October, one of the ministers groups I'm part of has been reaching out to the large Jewish population in our area. Some of us have attended Sabbath service to show our support. I attended a local Conservatives synagogue (which is egalitarian by the way) and set through three hours of readings and prayers, etc. The Rabbi recognized me as a local minister (and friend) and had me read a prayer of blessing for our nation out of their prayer book. The prayer in the book did not violate my confess and I did not add a word to it. At the end of the service they serve a "shot" of liquor, which I guess is a tradition, but it was schnapps (?). I did not take the drink that was offered, but I did drink the grape juice they give the kids, as it was a sign of being welcome, not an element of being Jewish.
Being ecumenical is good, working with the faith community is part of ministry, but embracing traditions and practices which are contrary to our individual confessions can undermine our witness. So if one church is just as good as other, does it matter which you attend and support? So if one university is just as good as another, does it really matter where you get your education?
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1984
3/8/24 9:48 am
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| Re: Inside Source |
Nature Boy Florida |
| FG Minister wrote: | I know what happened behind the scenes but am not at liberty to divulge it. I will just say this - as a pastor, there have been times when people have made a wrong assumption about something I supposedly said or did. It's a horrible feeling when you know people in your congregation have reached an opinion about you that is not true at all. But what is worse is that I have gone to people and tried to clear my name and they don't want to hear my side of the story. I think this is one of the most frustrating parts of being a pastor - when people refuse to hear my side of what transpired.
I am told the professor has a clean record. He has never written or taught anything that is pro-LGBTQ. Nothing at all. Two examining boards found that to be true. But on Face Book he was painted as being pro-LGBTQ because he attended the Episcopal Church twice with his wife. If this professor, a COG member, is in fact NOT pro-LGBTQ, then he has been maligned and his career could be in jeopardy.
I do not agree with a lot of you who believe that taking communion twice at an LGBTQ affirming congregation makes you LGBTQ affirming. I do not see your argument whatsoever. I do not believe that taking communion automatically causes one to be in league with everything that local church believes. If guilt by association is now the standard by which we are judged, God help us all!
I know for a fact that I shop in grocery stores that sale alcohol. Am I now sympathetic to alcoholism?
I have had surgery at a hospital that performs abortions. Am I now pro-choice?
Be careful folks. According to all who investigated, this professor is not LGBTQ affirming. He was found to be guilty by simply attending church with his wife and taking communion at a church that is LGBTQ affirming. Judge not lest you be judged the same way. |
Looks like we disagree.
Perhaps your inside knowledge is shaded by your own thinking and/or the thinking of those on the inside.
Joe Biden told us for three years the border is secure. Everyone "on the inside" agreed. But there are others not on the inside that might have a different perspective.
Anyone can take pictures of me at church and publish them all they want...especially if me or my church posted them first.
And - some of his posts had words that some believe are code words that don't paint him as conservative as Ray Hughes like you want us to believe.
And I believe there are others that would disagree with your assessment.
Just because some on the "inside" lead you to believe something - their worldview might be different than mine or yours.
Sorry.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16622
3/8/24 10:06 am
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fire-starter |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: |
Your defamation of character charge is ridiculous. Travis made up nothing - in fact, he posted only what the professor had posted. So, if anyone defamed anyone - he defamed himself. |
Doesn't matter if it is made up or not. Defamation is not slander. So let's go ahead and move past that. I have not seen the post that the prof shared of himself, but I am pretty sure he did not malign his own character or affirm LGBTQ in it; viewers might have maligned him in their minds and assumed he was LGBTQ affirming, but his post was not made to explicitly imply that. On the other hand, TJ's sharing of it on social media on a private COG page for only credentialed ministers with a caption asking for a judgment from the viewers, is not the same as the original share. I believe you have the comprehension skills to understand the difference and that you are only trying to be argumentative. If not, and you truly don't see the difference, I got nothing else for you. 
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | TJ didn't talk to the Professor because the post was directed at the leadership of Lee, not him. |
Then TJ should have emailed the post the leaders of Lee, not posted to publicly to his peers with an ominous caption. If TJ intent was just to address the situation at Lee, there are a dozen other ways to do that without publicly blasting an inflamatory post on social media. Again, this seems like basic Christian ethics and professionalism to me.
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | I'm afraid folks that characterize it any other way take the heat off the Lee admins - which I think was the whole point to begin with. |
That is quite an assumption. I, for one, think that this does need to be addressed by the COG and Lee. This is a much-needed conversation that has been festering for a while. That doesn't mean we can't characterize defamation when defamation has taken place.
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | SO - firestarter before you post anything else - shouldn't you have a sit down with me before you offend me and try to make me look bad. That might defame me. I seriously can't believe you would post something contradictory about me without sitting down and discussing it with me first.
For shame.
Bad firestarter.
Where's Dority when you need him?
 |
You are better at debate than this trash. And I know you know the difference between defaming an actual person with a face/name and an internet avatar from NWA lore. I truly do not know who you are, and you probably don't have a clue who I am. BUT IF, we ever did know one another, and I had a real issue with something you shared, I would 100% reach directly out to you. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1947
3/8/24 10:33 am
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| Re: Inside Source |
fire-starter |
| FG Minister wrote: | I know what happened behind the scenes but am not at liberty to divulge it. I will just say this - as a pastor, there have been times when people have made a wrong assumption about something I supposedly said or did. It's a horrible feeling when you know people in your congregation have reached an opinion about you that is not true at all. But what is worse is that I have gone to people and tried to clear my name and they don't want to hear my side of the story. I think this is one of the most frustrating parts of being a pastor - when people refuse to hear my side of what transpired.
I am told the professor has a clean record. He has never written or taught anything that is pro-LGBTQ. Nothing at all. Two examining boards found that to be true. But on Face Book he was painted as being pro-LGBTQ because he attended the Episcopal Church twice with his wife. If this professor, a COG member, is in fact NOT pro-LGBTQ, then he has been maligned and his career could be in jeopardy.
I do not agree with a lot of you who believe that taking communion twice at an LGBTQ affirming congregation makes you LGBTQ affirming. I do not see your argument whatsoever. I do not believe that taking communion automatically causes one to be in league with everything that local church believes. If guilt by association is now the standard by which we are judged, God help us all!
I know for a fact that I shop in grocery stores that sale alcohol. Am I now sympathetic to alcoholism?
I have had surgery at a hospital that performs abortions. Am I now pro-choice?
Be careful folks. According to all who investigated, this professor is not LGBTQ affirming. He was found to be guilty by simply attending church with his wife and taking communion at a church that is LGBTQ affirming. Judge not lest you be judged the same way. |
Wisdom. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1947
3/8/24 10:40 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
FS. Thanks for saying you think I have the comprehension skills to understand.
I wish I could say the same thing about you - but then I would be lying.
Wisdom!
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16622
3/8/24 11:32 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
I have very close relatives who apostasized from the Pentecostal faith we had been raised in and now embrace universalism, LGBTQETC as good, gay ‘marriage’ as holy, etc. While I still treat them civilly, I definitely would never consider them real followers of Christ as scripturally defined, nor would I ever attend their so-called church or participate in communion with them.
1 Cor 10: You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22 Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he? 23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.
As far as a grocery store selling alcohol, Paul said to eat meat without asking if it had been sacrificed to idols, but if the server were to state it was sacrificed to idols, to have no part in it. Also, the inspired apostle said the following with regard to how we are to relate to unbelievers and compromised or false believers:
1 Cor 5:9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
It necessarily follows that believers must not eat (obviously including eating the body of Christ in the bread) with those who are sexually immoral. Anyone who teaches that sodomy is good and holy and acceptable before God is by definition promoting sexual immorality, and true Christians are NOT to eat with such.
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 3/8/24 11:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12799
3/8/24 11:34 am
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fire-starter |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | FS. Thanks for saying you think I have the comprehension skills to understand.
I wish I could say the same thing about you - but then I would be lying.
Wisdom! |
I always appreciate your thoughtful and intelligent reflections. Woooo! |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1947
3/8/24 11:42 am
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fire-starter |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | I have very close relatives who apostasized from the Pentecostal faith we had been raised in and now embrace universalism, LGBTQETC as good, gay ‘marriage’ as holy, etc. While I still treat them civilly, I definitely would never attend their so-called church or participate in communion with them.
1 Cor 10: You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22 Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he? 23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.
As far as a grocery store selling alcohol, Paul said to eat meat without asking if it had been sacrificed to idols, but if the server were to state it was sacrificed to idols, to have no part in it. Also, the inspired apostle said the following with regard to how we are to relate to unbelievers and compromised or false believers:
1 Cor 5:9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
It necessarily follows that believers must not eat (obviously including eating the body of Christ in the bread) with those who are sexually immoral. Anyone who teaches that sodomy is good and holy and acceptable before God is by definition promoting sexual immorality, and true Christians are NOT to eat with such. |
All great points, that should be discussed by Lee and the COG in the presence of those accused of doing such things, their spiritual leaders, and those who have accused them. NOT ominously on the interwebs. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1947
3/8/24 11:45 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Such ‘discussion’ has been had many times over the past several years, but it has consistently been brushed off by those responsible for leadership and administration at Lee. This was not the first time this issue has been raised by rightfully concerned pastors and leaders within the denomination that owns Lee and whose tithes significantly help fund Lee, and it will definitely not be the last. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12799
3/8/24 12:18 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
When someone goes into a store to buy groceries and that store also happens to sell alcohol (which is apparently almost every grocery store or Walmart around today), that in no way is a compromise on moral principle, as one is not buying the booze; they are only buying groceries. One is not saying that alcohol is a good thing thereby.
When one partakes of communion with a church that affirms sodomy as godly and good, one IS at least saying, “This is a valid New Testament church, that I can in good conscience affirm as brothers and sisters in the Lord.” You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and drink the cup of demons.
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 3/8/24 2:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12799
3/8/24 2:13 pm
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| Excommunication |
FG Minister |
| I have two sets of grandparents, members of my church, who recently attended the infant baptismal service of their grandson at a local ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran) church. The ELCA is so LGBTQ affirming they make Elton John look like a straight man! These grandparents received communion at the service. Should I go ahead and excommunicate them, since I am sure this indicates they are LGBTQ affirming now? Please be consistent in your hypocrisy. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 875
3/8/24 2:16 pm
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| Re: Excommunication |
Quiet Wyatt |
| FG Minister wrote: | | I have two sets of grandparents, members of my church, who recently attended the infant baptismal service of their grandson at a local ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran) church. The ELCA is so LGBTQ affirming they make Elton John look like a straight man! These grandparents received communion at the service. Should I go ahead and excommunicate them, since I am sure this indicates they are LGBTQ affirming now? Please be consistent in your hypocrisy. |
What it affirms is that they are willfully ignorant of the Scriptures about having no fellowship with the deeds of darkness, and not to even eat with the sexual immoral who say they’re Christians, just as you appear to affirm as okay. Go ahead and say everybody’s okay with God and going to Heaven without saying you’re a universalist. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12799
3/8/24 2:19 pm
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| Two Things... |
Aaron Scott |
One, Travis should not have been cleared by "a majority." IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN UNANIMOUS!
Second, the whole admonition about social media is PRECISELY what the other side of this issue would like to happen. That way they could quietly do whatever they wanted--no matter how the Church of God feels about it--all without anyone knowing.
NO! If someone puts it out there publicly that they are doing something that is deeply questionable, the Church ought to be made aware of it at some point. Otherwise, this stuff slips in until one day we find ourselves with leaders at the top who would fit better in the Episcopal Church than the Church of God!
Social media is the easiest way to spread the word about anything. And if the church is endangered, I WANT TO KNOW! |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
3/8/24 2:40 pm
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| What Are You Guys Talking About? |
FG Minister |
| The Professor is NOT - NOT - NOT LGBTQ affirming!!!! You want it posted on social media that he is? Why? Why do you want to ruin this man's career by falsely accusing him of being pro-LGBTQ? I don't get it!! |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 875
3/8/24 4:03 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
NM
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 3/8/24 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12799
3/8/24 4:50 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
Thanks for posting QW. How this post warranted a censure from the COG is pathetic.
Yet, Lee goes on its same path. We need to clean house of weak ABs and Lee Board of directors that can’t get this under control.
I think these are all good people. Just too weak to demand change take place.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16622
3/8/24 6:38 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
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