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Those Rascally Nephilim

Acts-celerater Posts: 875 **5/9/23 2:36 pm**

Who are they? Where'd they come from? How'd they get here? Can angelic beings procreate with humans? Just want to hear some of the arguments. My associate pastor and I have two different views. Looking for others.

UncleJD

Re: Those Rascally Nephilim

Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3145 **5/9/23 4:45 pm**

Old Time Country Preacher

Re: Those Rascally Nephilim

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **5/14/23 8:49 pm**

UncleJD

Re: Those Rascally Nephilim

Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3145 **5/15/23 8:54 am**

Da Sheik

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1860 **5/21/23 6:05 pm**

As odd as it sounds to us, the original text literally describes a union between the “sons of God” (always angels in the Old Testament) and the “daughters of
Adam” (in Hebrew “men”=Adam). Even the daughters of Seth would be considered daughters of Adam. When you consider Satan’s motive behind such an action, one need only look at the first prophecy of a Messiah:

Genesis 3:15 (KJV) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

At this point all Satan knows is that his defeat will come by means of the “seed of the woman”. To corrupt the genetics of humanity would be a means of stopping the prophecy dead in its tracks. It seems outrageous to us, but this is the way the apostles would have interpreted Genesis 6.

UncleJD

Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3145 **5/22/23 8:12 am**

Da Sheik

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1860 **5/22/23 12:54 pm**

UncleJD

Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3145 **5/22/23 3:40 pm**

Da Sheik

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1860 **5/22/23 4:15 pm**

Da Sheik

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1860 **5/22/23 5:44 pm**

The original post alluded to the Nephilim and I have yet to address that. We have to ascertain how the Nephilim came into being. The obvious clue is within the context of the passage :

“The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.”
Genesis 6:4 NASB1995

They are the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men (whatever those terms mean to you). It would appear from the verbiage used that the product of this union were “mighty men” (Hebrew is ‘gibor’). What made them mighty and why were they all males ?

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12802 **5/22/23 6:38 pm**

If angels are spirits (Psalm 104:4; quoted in the NT in Heb. 1:7), and, according to the very Son of God Himself, angels neither marry nor are given in marriage, and further, according to Jesus’ own words (which He said shall never pass away), people were “marrying and being given in marriage” before the Flood, until it came and they perished (Matt 24:37-39), how then can we say angels, which are spirits, actually did become flesh and blood and did in fact marry, and the entire reason for the Flood was this supposed hybridization with fallen angels and not mankind’s own wickedness and rebellion?

Further, as Jesus said the time around His second coming would be “as it was in the days of Noah,” and only warns His disciples to watch and be alert spiritually so that those days do not come upon them unaware, why didn’t He at least say anything like, “And make sure you don’t ever mate with angels, because that’s what brought the judgment of the Great Flood?”

How do two separate species, one of which are expressly stated in Scripture to be spirits, and the other expressly stated in Scripture to be flesh and blood, physically copulate and produce fertile offspring? Genesis expressly says that each created kind produced after its kind.

Da Sheik

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1860 **5/23/23 9:23 am**

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

In the passage, I emphasized the point that the elect/holy angels (in Heaven) neither marry nor are given in marriage. Genesis is not speaking of the holy angels, but rather of the fallen angels. Further, your argument about "producing after its kind" fails to take this into consideration. Angels don't produce after their kind- they do not give birth to other angels. What we see in Genesis 6 is something completely unnatural (hence the grotesque offspring and the need for a worldwide deluge!).

Angels are never referred to in the female gender. When they appear in Scripture, they always appear as young men. If you read Genesis 19:5 the men of Sodom obviously thought they could have relations with the angels who appeared. Lot's response was not "what an absurd idea" but rather "do not act wickedly". The New Testament gives us some insight into this time period and what transpired. Let's take a look at Jude:

Jud 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jud 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

If you will notice carefully, Jude links the sins of the fallen angels with the sins of Sodom. In both instances, an unnatural/abnormal union took place (hence the term "strange flesh"). The Nephilim were not simply the result of an "unequal yoke" by humans.

1Pe 3:19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. (NASB1995)

Again, we see these spirits (fallen angels)) are linked with the days of Noah and the flood. What was the proclamation to these spirits? I believe it was Christ announcing to these guys that their plans to keep the Messiah from crushing the head of the serpent had failed! We know that not all fallen angels are incarcerated (just look around!). Peter tells us a little more about the incarceration:

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Again, these angels are linked with the days of Noah. They are currently held in a place in the Greek called "Tartaros". This is why they are unable to repeat the actions of Genesis 6. So when Jesus speaks of the "days of Noah" in the Olivet Discourse, He isn't warning about humans cohabiting with angels. They won't be able to repeat this behavior.

I have already tried to establish that the "sons of God" and "daughters of men" cannot apply to Seth's boys and Cain's girls through the original languages, so I won't address that again. Happy hunting for those who are open to seeing another perspective. Again, this was the common view among the Apostles and the early church. It wasn't until Augustine and others started promoting the Sethite theory that it gained traction. Even John MacArthur, who goes to great lengths to dismiss the supernatural, preaches Genesis 6 as I have outlined.

Quiet Wyatt

Quiet Wyatt · [Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12802 **5/23/23 12:06 pm**

To work, your argument must say that there were angels who didn’t originate in Heaven, and thus don’t fall into the category of which Christ said neither marry nor are given in marriage, or, it must say that once they sinned and fell from Heaven, they somehow became flesh and blood and able to marry and procreate with humans.

Not sure where your comment about angels not being female is coming from. I know I have never made the assertion that angels ever appear as females in the Bible.

If holy angels were capable of sinning and becoming flesh and blood beings capable of procreating with humans, there is no logical reason why holy angels in Heaven now couldn’t do the same. If we assert that they can’t now but could then, it is inexplicably absurd why the Lord, ruler of all spirits, would not have just prevented such from happening ever. I affirm that He did prevent such, of course, in making them totally different species/kinds of moral beings.

Quiet Wyatt

Quiet Wyatt · [Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12802 **5/23/23 12:11 pm**

It is standard Christian tradition to affirm that a number of the angels sinned with Satan in his original rebellion. It is not universal Christian tradition to say that a subsequent fall occurred in Noah’s time and involved fallen spirit beings becoming capable of procreating with humans.

The ideas of the early church fathers were not inspired like Scripture, and for Protestants especially, sola scriptura is crucially important. Augustine was quite capable of fanciful gnostic absurdities contrary to scripture, such as the idea that married sex was still sinful, though ‘venially’, that sin is natural and is passed down genetically except in the case of Mary, that all is predetermined by God (thus making God the biggest hypocrite possible), etc. I am definitely no fan of Augustine and would never appeal to his authority as a ‘doctor of the Church.’

It is also definitely not a denial of the supernatural to deny absurd spiritual theories that originate from the noncanonical Book of Enoch.

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12802 **5/23/23 12:24 pm**

Why did God say in Genesis 6 that He was sorry that he had made *mankind* because *mankind* had become thoroughly wicked by that time, and not, “I am sorry that I made these angels who turned wicked and corrupted mankind?” And why is God’s judgment pronounced and executed solely upon mankind in Genesis 6?

Surely if angels had sinned and then unnaturally corrupted mankind, they would bear the biggest part of the blame for mankind’s wickedness in that chapter, and yet we find judgment only pronounced and meted out upon *mankind* (Adam) in that chapter. A very odd exclusion, if in fact fallen angels procreating with humans was the fundamental reason God sent the Great Flood.

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12802 **5/23/23 12:47 pm**

In the first 8 verses of Genesis 6, the word “Adam,” translated as man or mankind is used to describe even these supposed angel/human hybrids. Even the “mighty men of renown,” are referred to as “ish,” the same word that is used to refer to Noah as a righteous and blameless man (ish).

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12802 **5/23/23 1:21 pm**

One theory I’ve come across that does seem plausible is that fallen angels (demons) inhabited or possessed the bodies of evil men who became supernaturally strong (like the demoniac of Gadara in the NT) and thus mighty though evil, greatly aggravating the wickedness in the world that then was.

Da Sheik

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1860 **5/23/23 1:44 pm**

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12802 **5/23/23 2:11 pm**

I split my comments up into separate replies just to make it easier to respond point by point. Not trying to go into “rapid fire mode,” haha.

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12802 **5/23/23 2:24 pm**

My comment about the Book of Enoch was not saying you referenced it outright, but that apocryphal work is well known for promoting the fallen angels theory, among many other Jewish myths and absurdities.