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RZIM Confirms Ravi Zacharias's Sexual Misconduct .....saddened
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Post RZIM Confirms Ravi Zacharias's Sexual Misconduct .....saddened caseyleejones
I rarely post stuff like this since he was a brother in Christ with a giant in his life he did not slay. But since he has passed, ...welll...

I always enjoyed listening to him and some of what he wrote. But since the ministry was all about Ravi, it might as well close down. Anyone ever follow him?

Not posting links, it pops up with google....
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12/24/20 5:25 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
I agree that his ministry should be disbanded.

It is indisputable that many throughout the body of Christ were tremendously blessed by his ministry. It is a gracious testament to God's goodness to those blessed, and a reminder that the blessings are from him and merely through us. It is also a sober and scary reminder that any fruit we may see in our ministries is not necessarily evidence of our right standing with God.
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12/24/20 6:58 pm


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Post It is odd, I totally admire the integrity of the board.... caseyleejones
They could conceal it and move forward. By bringing it forward and confirming, it pretty much is the death knell.

Me personally, they should shut it all down and liquidate everything. I was an avid follower. Smart man.

Admittedly, when I hear things like this with super high profile ministers, it shakes me spiritually in a way that if it happened to him, it could happen to me. Be on guard.
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12/24/20 9:16 pm


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Post Dare I say this? roughridercog
It could be any one of us if we don't guard our walk and life with the Lord. The sin was bad. Not regarding it as a caution to ourselves is bad, also.
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12/25/20 8:32 am


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Post Cojak
Just sad A legacy that would have been altogether beautiful. Crying or Very sad
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12/25/20 7:59 pm


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Post This right here..... caseyleejones
Cojak wrote:
Just sad A legacy that would have been altogether beautiful. Crying or Very sad



Close it down and liquidate....
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12/25/20 8:18 pm


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Post Link
He is not around to defend himself. I did not read about the evidence. I read about his organization examining the evidence, so what do I know, and what do the rest of you know about it if you haven't examined the evidence for yourself?

If it is in a Christian magazine, does that make it not gossip? And if it isn't true and we repeat it as if it were, would that make us guilty of bearing false witness?

We do not really know if he was guilty of these things, or if he had done them in the past repented and found forgiveness for them.
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12/25/20 11:09 pm


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Post They should not have posted it, I don't think. Aaron Scott
For one thing, it is utterly beyond anyone but God to hold him accountable now. Further, it brings unnecessary suffering to his family and to those who have been blessed by what good was in his ministry. Had he still being alive and in ministry, perhaps it would have been the right thing to do, but not under the circumstances.

You will recall that Joseph sought to put away Mary "privily," not wishing to make her a public example. He apparently thought she had engaged in illicit sex, gotten pregnant, and so forth, but he did not want to make it public.

Then there is the Golden Rule argument against what RZIM did. If any of us had a beloved father that, after he was dead, someone came up and wanted to claim all sorts of sordid things about him, all while it was forever beyond your father to defend himself, to prove anything, etc., that would be something none of us would want. Further, even if we accepted that our fathers had done such a thing, we wouldn't want it made public after his death, and perhaps even before his death (perhaps just wanting him to step down, etc.).

I am sure that RZIM thinks that did the right thing. I also wouldn't be surprised if this is more than a little of virtue signaling. It helps NO ONE...but it might make them look like men of "integrity."

It's just that now that I think about it, I don't think it was good to seek to, in effect, undermine everything he ever did.
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12/26/20 9:39 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
His victims are still living, Aaron. They deserve justice and to have their story told. I urge you to reconsider your position with his victims in mind. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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12/26/20 10:15 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
Link wrote:
He is not around to defend himself. I did not read about the evidence. I read about his organization examining the evidence, so what do I know, and what do the rest of you know about it if you haven't examined the evidence for yourself?

If it is in a Christian magazine, does that make it not gossip? And if it isn't true and we repeat it as if it were, would that make us guilty of bearing false witness?

We do not really know if he was guilty of these things, or if he had done them in the past repented and found forgiveness for them.

It is astounding how quickly and gladly people jump to the defense of sexual abusers, which is what he was.

You start by saying you haven't read about the evidence against him, then bend over backwards to exonerate him and vilify his victims and accusers as sinners. Again, by your own admission, having read nothing about what he spent decades doing or the evidence thereof. Are his victims meaningless to you? Do they not even deserve an examination of their evidence before you cast their stories away?
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12/26/20 10:19 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
I can't get over your post, Link. You've got grace like rain for someone whose own organization, after initially refusing to believe the accounts of abuse, has after a serious inquiry concluded that the evidence is credible and convincing, and seemingly absolutely no concern for his victims. That's wrong. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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12/26/20 10:36 pm


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Post I am all for grace and and big gracer...... caseyleejones
I'm with Dave here. Acts-perienced Poster
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12/26/20 10:55 pm


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Post Dave.... Aaron Scott
I do hear you, my brother. But I still think nothing was served by a public acknowledgement of the crimes of a dead man.

Does it help those he hurt? And from what I read, there were those who were involved with him MULTIPLE times (I am assuming they are telling the truth), so is it these people that we think will be helped by some acknowledgment after the man's death?

If I had been advising them, I think I would have said something like this:

"Now that RZ has passed away, we will also close this particular ministry organization, but hope that it may continue through the ministries of others. Much good was done by RZ, but we feel that it would be unwise to continue his organization without him. So the organization will end, but we trust that his ministry of explaining and defending Christianity to others will be carried on by those who have learned from him, and as many as the Lord Our God shall call. It's been a pleasure being of use to the Kingdom of God."

What would that be the appropriate way forward?

Another thing, Dave, is that to knee-cap all the good that was done by admitting to what was wrong--ESPECIALLY AFTER THE MAN'S DEATH--seems to serve no good end...and seems, instead, to actually diminish all that was done.

Here's the thing with Christians.... If one of our heroes is found to be wanting, well, you've heard of the saying of "shooting our wounded." And something like that happens, for we don't want really want to hear anything they have to say from then on, and we also can never listen to what once blessed us, now that we know something negative.

For instance, Kirk Talley has been absolutely anointed of God to write some great songs. Then we found out that he was dealing with homosexuality. If we hear one of his songs now, it is almost always going to be sullied by the facts that we know.

If Ray. H. Hughes, perhaps the hero of many Church of God folks (certainly one of mine!), were found to have done something deeply immoral, I would never be able to hear another of his sermons without my mind going to that dark place.

That serves no one--ESPECIALLY AFTER DEATH.

And, again, Dave, I do hear you, my friend. It's just on this one I see things differently.
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12/26/20 11:41 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
Aaron, if your mind would be called to the things a preacher did while listening to his sermons, imagine how it would sound to the women he abused to hear him praised as a titan of the faith because no one knew otherwise. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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12/26/20 11:59 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
Good article on the subject:

https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/the-church-needs-prophets-but-wants

"How much more evidence do we need that our church culture is shot through with systemic sin before our own hearts are pierced, before we ask, like our spiritual fathers and mothers who came before, 'Brothers, what should we do?'"
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12/27/20 12:55 pm


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Post Cojak
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Good article on the subject:

https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/the-church-needs-prophets-but-wants

"How much more evidence do we need that our church culture is shot through with systemic sin before our own hearts are pierced, before we ask, like our spiritual fathers and mothers who came before, 'Brothers, what should we do?'"


That is indeed a good article (I think). It is very widespread and detailed at the same time. Actually some of it I could follow and said amen to. I wish I could 'digest' things written by what seems to be 'wise men'.
I do have to admit the scripture did not hesitate to show Peter's fall. Neither that of DAvid.
Every time I hear of ministers falling (known and unknown) I think of an encounter I had with a leading pastor who failed. He compared himself to DAvid, and his being 'a man after God's own heart!' He got a little upset when I asked if he had ever slain a wolf or a Giant for his sheep?. Another pastor whom I knew well and ran with for years as kids. When he was convicted and sentenced to prison for finagling most of a rich woman's money, declared he was like Paul, imprisoned for preaching.
I just don't know how to feel at times, Exposing and not exposing has points that can be discussed. Iffn it was me I would want it swept under the rug, that is for sure, Shocked
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12/27/20 1:22 pm


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Post Link
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Link wrote:
He is not around to defend himself. I did not read about the evidence. I read about his organization examining the evidence, so what do I know, and what do the rest of you know about it if you haven't examined the evidence for yourself?

If it is in a Christian magazine, does that make it not gossip? And if it isn't true and we repeat it as if it were, would that make us guilty of bearing false witness?

We do not really know if he was guilty of these things, or if he had done them in the past repented and found forgiveness for them.

It is astounding how quickly and gladly people jump to the defense of sexual abusers, which is what he was.

You start by saying you haven't read about the evidence against him, then bend over backwards to exonerate him and vilify his victims and accusers as sinners. Again, by your own admission, having read nothing about what he spent decades doing or the evidence thereof. Are his victims meaningless to you? Do they not even deserve an examination of their evidence before you cast their stories away?


I just read the news article. Do you work for RZIM to see the actual evidence? I don't know whether he did it or not. But I notice many Christians are quick to judge when they have not seen the evidence.
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12/27/20 8:15 pm


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Post Link
I'm also wondering what the definition of 'abuse' is here? If someone in a leadership role commits adultery or fornication, is that 'abuse', or is the other person just sinning? Are they 'abusing' each other?

Is the other party to the sin a child or a rape victim? Is it supposed to be..allegedly... a consenting adult who took money for a massage that went way too far? Sin is sin, but I'm curious about how 'abuse' is being used here.
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12/27/20 8:18 pm


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Post Do we not convict individuals on charges of rape? caseyleejones
People are found guilty by a jury of peers where there is no video or audio or confession.

RZIM acted just that way. I would also say they extended far more grace than a court of law. But not even they could cover it up.

FYI, yeah, I am that hyper grace guy as you say. I was also an avid follower of RZ. Listened to his stuff all the time.

Let's call it like it was.....
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12/27/20 9:11 pm


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Post Dave... Aaron Scott
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Aaron, if your mind would be called to the things a preacher did while listening to his sermons, imagine how it would sound to the women he abused to hear him praised as a titan of the faith because no one knew otherwise.


Dave, here's the thing: Now that RZ is dead, there is absolutely nothing that will "fix things" for these women. Whether they hear a sermon, a speech, a video clip, or what have you, they will ALWAYS think little of the man--and rightly so. However, now it has also been spoiled for the rest of us!

IT DID NOTHING TO IMPROVE THE LIVES OF THE VICTIMS (AND IN ANY CASE IT COULD HAVE BEEN VIA A PRIVATE APOLOGY AND SETTLEMENT WITH THE VICTIMS), BUT IT CRUSHED THOSE WHO DIDN'T KNOW.

Again, had RZIM been living, there should not doubt have been a public reckoning (although, even then, I don't know that it would serve any more purpose than telling him he must retire immediately, undergo restoration, etc.).

If full disclosure had any positive effect, fine. But as far as I can see, there was really not positive effect.
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12/27/20 9:36 pm


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