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Are we using all the Biblical Gifts?
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Post Are we using all the Biblical Gifts? autumn trees twice dead
This is a very interesting article concerning the full use of all the spiritual gifts and not just the traditionally accepted format which the church has reduced itself to today. What do you think?

Although the term “charismatic” has taken on a range of meanings in various circles, the modern classification originates in Paul’s depiction of charismata, or spiritual gifts (Rom 12:6–8; 1 Cor 12:4–11). Such gifts belong to the entire body of Christ; by definition, each member of the body has at least one gift to contribute to the larger body (Rom 12:4–6; 1 Cor 12:12–30). That is, all Christians should be considered charismatic by definition. .

Some Protestant thinkers traditionally argued for the specific cessation only of “supernatural” gifts. This dichotomy, however, has more to do with early Protestant reaction against Catholic tradition (similar to early Protestant rejection of missions because Catholics engaged in it) and accommodation to Enlightenment skepticism than it does with Scripture.

For Paul, all gifts are empowered by the Spirit. A body that excludes particular kinds of gifts that Paul affirmed would, from a Pauline perspective, thus be a disabled or malformed body, lacking some of the member gifts needed to bring the body as whole to maturity. That some Christian bodies have traditionally amputated valuable members as purely vestigial cannot justify trying to build a new body out of all the amputated members.

In theory, most Christians today believe that the range of biblical gifts continue today, but in practice most churches have only some of the gifts represented. In fact, many churches that in principle allow that the gifts are for today are, with respect to public worship, practical cessationists on any biblical gifts that do not fit their traditional order of service.


This is true even of many Pentecostal and charismatic churches, sometimes even with regard to gifts traditionally associated with those churches. It is admittedly true even of most churches where I have ministered (though not so much where I pastored). While I am happy to minister and worship there, I do believe that, biblically, we are missing something important. (Sometimes the size of the congregation prohibits exercise of many members’ gifts, but these can often be accommodated through small groups.)

Keener, Craig S.. Spirit Hermeneutics (p.7-9) Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.. Kindle Edition.

Craig S. Keener is a Spirit Filled man and professor at Asbury Theological Seminary
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5/4/20 9:24 am


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Post In theology, we are... Aaron Scott
In theology, we are Pentecostals.

In practice, alas, we are largely cessationists.
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5/4/20 10:02 am


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Post Re: In theology, we are... autumn trees twice dead
Aaron Scott wrote:
In theology, we are Pentecostals.

In practice, alas, we are largely cessationists.


Doc. I sadly agree with you. I just don't see our current practices living up to the Acts examples. I know it is our traditional rituals, but how really edifying is talking in tongues and prophesying to one another in a church house with an occasional prayer for the sick.

It seems we don't speak of the other gifts such as helps or administrations, but usually just speak on what Howard Carter wrote over 100 years ago yet we only practice a couple.

Craig Keener's view is we need to study the word not as an exegesis exercise, but with the Spirit's experience in our lives also looking at them. At one point he cites the CoG professor French Arrington:

In a seminal modern essay on illumination, Pentecostal exegete French L. Arrington notes the importance of the Spirit’s activity in interpretation, in “(1) submission of the mind to God so that the critical and analytical abilities are exercised under the guidance of the Holy Spirit; (2) a genuine openness to the witness of the Spirit as the text is examined; (3) the personal experience of faith as part of
the entire interpretive process; and, (4) response to the transforming call of God’s Word.”45 The first of these points helpfully recognizes that the Spirit can work through as well as beyond our cognitive faculties.

This is beyond just experience or academic exegesis but a Spirit Hermeneutics understanding applying both experience and praxis in order for the church to fully comprehend and flow in all the gifts both natural and supernatural.

Sadly, the church world (both Pentecostal and more traditional) are living beneath what our atonement has given us. We must learn from God and from each other to actually be the Body of Christ.
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5/4/20 12:09 pm


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Post I have complained about this very jimmyjon
Thing in the AG churches for the last 35 years. We pay lip service at best to the manifestations of the Spirit on our church. In theory we are Pentecostal lite (tongues only ) occasionally prophesy ( my church is overtly Pentecostal) although some accuse me of being Charismatic because we have all the gifts manifested over time.

As a side note, I joined this forum 10 years ago or more because I thought the COG was more open to the gifts than what I was seeing in the AG. That has changed on this forum over the years as the seeker driven, missional mindset has captured most of the younger pastors seeking numbers over the things of the Spirit since they think the Spiritual gifts and big church growth are mutually exclusive and cant inhabit the same space. Cessaionists rule the day if not in theory in practice. And if you accuse someone of obvious bias towards that you are labeled as old fashioned, out of touch and banned from further dialogue.
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5/4/20 8:30 pm


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Post Re: I have complained about this very Dave Dorsey
jimmyjon wrote:
And if you accuse someone of obvious bias towards that you are labeled as old fashioned, out of touch and banned from further dialogue.

As evidenced by your continued presence here, and your continued slinging of rocks at me...

In consultation with Doyle and Shaun, I have given you near limitless chances to return to this forum. I have tried to help you understand, through long messages to you, what specifically you are doing and how you can engage in a different way. I have given you as much space as I possibly can. With your most recent return, I have avoided responding to your posts unless I can respond with positivity and agreement, so as to do everything I can to avoid giving you a reason to get worked up. I have done everything I can to help you stay here and still you attack me.

Well I am sick and tired of getting attacked by you and I am not going to put up with it one minute longer.
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5/4/20 9:38 pm


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Post Re: I have complained about this very autumn trees twice dead
Dave Dorsey wrote:
jimmyjon wrote:
And if you accuse someone of obvious bias towards that you are labeled as old fashioned, out of touch and banned from further dialogue.

As evidenced by your continued presence here, and your continued slinging of rocks at me...

In consultation with Doyle and Shaun, I have given you near limitless chances to return to this forum. I have tried to help you understand, through long messages to you, what specifically you are doing and how you can engage in a different way. I have given you as much space as I possibly can. With your most recent return, I have avoided responding to your posts unless I can respond with positivity and agreement, so as to do everything I can to avoid giving you a reason to get worked up. I have done everything I can to help you stay here and still you attack me.


Well I am sick and tired of getting attacked by you and I am not going to put up with it one minute longer.


so are you then going to be biblical and check to see if I am right biblically, forgive and pray for me or just whine.
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Last edited by autumn trees twice dead on 5/5/20 8:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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5/5/20 8:15 am


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Post Re: I have complained about this very Dave Dorsey
autumn trees twice dead wrote:
so are you then going to be biblical and check t see if I am right biblically, forgive and pray for me or just whine.

...huh?

Did you mean to send that reply to me? Because if so I don't understand at all what you're talking about. Confused
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Post Re: I have complained about this very autumn trees twice dead
Dave Dorsey wrote:
autumn trees twice dead wrote:
so are you then going to be biblical and check t see if I am right biblically, forgive and pray for me or just whine.

...huh?

Did you mean to send that reply to me? Because if so I don't understand at all what you're talking about. Confused


I meant it to whoever claimed they gave me chances and then whined.
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5/5/20 8:19 am


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Post Re: I have complained about this very Dave Dorsey
autumn trees twice dead wrote:
I meant it to whoever claimed they gave me chances and then whined.

With respect, I think you're having a little trouble parsing the format of the forum.

It is very common for a poster to quote an excerpt of another post and reply to that. You can see this in my post above -- I quoted an excerpt of a post by "jimmyjon" and responded to that. My post was in the thread that you started, but it was not directed to you, it was directed toward the poster who authored the text I quoted.

It is in almost all cases incorrect to read a post that contains a "quote" of another post as being directed at anything other than the content of the quoted text.
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5/5/20 8:21 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
Like... did you think my post made any sense at all, if it was directed at you? You're fairly new here. Have we had any troublesome interactions? No, we haven't. I've enjoyed reading your posts here.

Taking a step back to consider context and ask if something makes sense in the way you're understanding it is always a good move IMO.
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5/5/20 8:23 am


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Post I don't think Jimmyjon crossed any lines... Aaron Scott
Dave, with great respect, my bro, I know you may take these little snips personally, but frankly, I had no idea who he was talking about. If we are getting ANY additional traffic, I say let's keep them onboard except for grievous errors. Please? Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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5/5/20 8:42 am


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Post Re: I don't think Jimmyjon crossed any lines... Dave Dorsey
Aaron Scott wrote:
Dave, with great respect, my bro, I know you may take these little snips personally, but frankly, I had no idea who he was talking about. If we are getting ANY additional traffic, I say let's keep them onboard except for grievous errors. Please?

Hi Aaron. I appreciate your perspective very much and I thank you for sharing it. With regard to who he was talking about, there are not many people here who can ban. That narrows the list of targets down quite a bit.

Without divulging too much, "jimmyjon" is a long-time poster here under another name with whom we have had many, many problems. Doyle, Shaun, and I agreed that he should be permanently banned after his last offense, but when I saw that he had rejoined the forum under the name "jimmyjon" I nevertheless decided to give him another chance. That was a mistake and one that I have now rectified. I cannot begin to explain how much grace has been given to this poster, only for it to be thrown back in my face.

I do sincerely appreciate you being willing to share your perspective, and I agree that we should do everything we can to keep posters here and to retain any traffic we can. That was done at length for "jimmyjon" and was not successful. Accordingly and unfortunately, this action is now final and will not be reconsidered.
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5/5/20 8:45 am


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Post Jimmyjon... Aaron Scott
jimmyjon wrote:
Thing in the AG churches for the last 35 years. We pay lip service at best to the manifestations of the Spirit on our church. In theory we are Pentecostal lite (tongues only ) occasionally prophesy ( my church is overtly Pentecostal) although some accuse me of being Charismatic because we have all the gifts manifested over time.

As a side note, I joined this forum 10 years ago or more because I thought the COG was more open to the gifts than what I was seeing in the AG. That has changed on this forum over the years as the seeker driven, missional mindset has captured most of the younger pastors seeking numbers over the things of the Spirit since they think the Spiritual gifts and big church growth are mutually exclusive and cant inhabit the same space. Cessaionists rule the day if not in theory in practice. And if you accuse someone of obvious bias towards that you are labeled as old fashioned, out of touch and banned from further dialogue.


Many years ago, back when Actscelerate was really a force (it being the only way to communicate to others at large), a prominent pastor posted something to the effect that much of Pentecostal expression was "weird."

I knew what he meant. Indeed, a person not used to our way of doing things is certainly going to think it weird if someone shouts, etc. In any case, it became clear that that pastor didn't care to see that sort of thing happen in his church. I dare say it doesn't.

It seems there are at least three Pentecostal churches in the Church of God (NOTE: these are stereotypes to some degree, but you will recognize them, I imagine.):

1). The "ice cubes" are those churches that have the gifts of the Spirit in their written statement of faith...but seldom see the GIFTS in operation on a wide scale (this doesn't mean that these churches do not feel the presence of God--they often have truly great worship services...but, again, little expression of classical Pentecostal expression). These churches are often virtually identical to a Baptist or other non-Pentecostal church.

2) The "snake-handlers" are those churches where the gifts get overshadowed by "Pentecostal" expression. I'm speaking of churches that regularly DO NOT have preaching because things get to "moving." I believe their intent is correct, but they don't seem to understand that the gifts are not for grandstanding or elaborate displays, but to turn people's eyes toward heaven. They get so caught up in shouting and the such that have very little spiritual maturity. To them, a service is a success if there was no preaching.

3) The "Pentecostals" are those churches that demonstrate classic Pentecostal expression, but have a strong balance of spiritual maturity. Instead of the maturity forcing out Pentecostal expression, it serves to operate with it, creating balance. From what I have seen (I've never been there), I think that the Dallas Church of God in North Carolina is a good example of this kind of church, and it is very close to what I grew up with.

IMPORTANT!!!
Some of these churches aspire to greater Pentecostal expression, but for any number of reasons have not yet reached that place. Over time, any of these churches can morph into another type of church. And sometimes, you have one church having people who are in all three "camps."
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5/5/20 8:56 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Rather than be concerned about what gifts are being manifested, it seems we should be most concerned with how fully yielded to the Father, the Spirit and the Word we are. When we are fully yielded to Him, earnestly praying, fasting, and believing as we ought, the manifestations of the Spirit will come, being given according to the will of God, not the will of man. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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Post Re: In theology, we are... caseyleejones
Aaron Scott wrote:
In theology, we are Pentecostals.

In practice, alas, we are largely cessationists.



This right here.....
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5/5/20 11:27 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Rather than be concerned about what gifts are being manifested, it seems we should be most concerned with how fully yielded to the Father, the Spirit and the Word we are. When we are fully yielded to Him, earnestly praying, fasting, and believing as we ought, the manifestations of the Spirit will come, being given according to the will of God, not the will of man.

Couldn't agree with this more. Seek the Giver and the gifts will come.
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5/5/20 11:29 am


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Post If you don't believe in them, they will not come. caseyleejones
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Rather than be concerned about what gifts are being manifested, it seems we should be most concerned with how fully yielded to the Father, the Spirit and the Word we are. When we are fully yielded to Him, earnestly praying, fasting, and believing as we ought, the manifestations of the Spirit will come, being given according to the will of God, not the will of man.


I get your point. But do those things just happen if you don't believe in them?

Frankly, in the US, I rarely here of someone being miraculously healed. That said, I just got off a zoom meeting with an Indian pastor who has 50-75 thousand house churches. They have actually lost count after that number. Anyway, he was asked how many came to Christ due to some supernatural event like being healed, he said 80%. This lines up similar to another pastor I talked to from India who is over 100+ churches in buildings. His number was 75%.

Is God a respecter of persons? To those people in India, they take the Word literally. Heaven is real just like healing is real. You will definitely confuse them telling them that certain parts of Paul's teaching ended.
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5/5/20 11:36 am


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Post Carolyn Smith
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Rather than be concerned about what gifts are being manifested, it seems we should be most concerned with how fully yielded to the Father, the Spirit and the Word we are. When we are fully yielded to Him, earnestly praying, fasting, and believing as we ought, the manifestations of the Spirit will come, being given according to the will of God, not the will of man.


One of the best quotes on the forum ever! Well said, QW!
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Post Re: If you don't believe in them, they will not come. Carolyn Smith
caseyleejones wrote:
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Rather than be concerned about what gifts are being manifested, it seems we should be most concerned with how fully yielded to the Father, the Spirit and the Word we are. When we are fully yielded to Him, earnestly praying, fasting, and believing as we ought, the manifestations of the Spirit will come, being given according to the will of God, not the will of man.


I get your point. But do those things just happen if you don't believe in them?

Frankly, in the US, I rarely here of someone being miraculously healed. That said, I just got off a zoom meeting with an Indian pastor who has 50-75 thousand house churches. They have actually lost count after that number. Anyway, he was asked how many came to Christ due to some supernatural event like being healed, he said 80%. This lines up similar to another pastor I talked to from India who is over 100+ churches in buildings. His number was 75%.

Is God a respecter of persons? To those people in India, they take the Word literally. Heaven is real just like healing is real. You will definitely confuse them telling them that certain parts of Paul's teaching ended.


I think this happens in this way because these folks do not have access to medical care as we do, and it forces them to use their faith. Most of the Western world is content to run to the doctor, while many other parts of the world MUST rely on their God for healing! And He meets them at the point of their need.
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5/5/20 11:51 pm


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Post Re: If you don't believe in them, they will not come. caseyleejones
Carolyn Smith wrote:
caseyleejones wrote:
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Rather than be concerned about what gifts are being manifested, it seems we should be most concerned with how fully yielded to the Father, the Spirit and the Word we are. When we are fully yielded to Him, earnestly praying, fasting, and believing as we ought, the manifestations of the Spirit will come, being given according to the will of God, not the will of man.


I get your point. But do those things just happen if you don't believe in them?

Frankly, in the US, I rarely here of someone being miraculously healed. That said, I just got off a zoom meeting with an Indian pastor who has 50-75 thousand house churches. They have actually lost count after that number. Anyway, he was asked how many came to Christ due to some supernatural event like being healed, he said 80%. This lines up similar to another pastor I talked to from India who is over 100+ churches in buildings. His number was 75%.

Is God a respecter of persons? To those people in India, they take the Word literally. Heaven is real just like healing is real. You will definitely confuse them telling them that certain parts of Paul's teaching ended.


I think this happens in this way because these folks do not have access to medical care as we do, and it forces them to use their faith. Most of the Western world is content to run to the doctor, while many other parts of the world MUST rely on their God for healing! And He meets them at the point of their need.


Carolyn, I tend to agree...trust God or die.
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