Actscelerate.com

Dave Dorsey

Re: I think DW was a good man and minister..that said

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **4/5/20 11:02 am**

Dave Dorsey

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **4/5/20 11:19 am**

Here are a few words from Roger Olson on heresy, from his work The Mosaic of Christian Belief:

jimmyjon

heresy

Hey, DOC Posts: 87 **4/5/20 12:43 pm**

casey, you are correct. while there is a "formal" definition (see below) it pretty much means anything that goes against an established belief. So, the apostles were heretics. To the men like heresy hunter John McArthur tongue talkers are heretics. To Dave (and he thinks hes the official arbiter of doctrine here) Copeland et al are heretics. Some of their teachings are out there and are in my opinion heretical but I'm not that dogmatic about it. What is orthodox to Dave or You may not be to McArthur and his ilk. Heresy hunting is fun for some but it just depends what or who you believe.

herÂ·â€‹eÂ·â€‹sy | \ Ëˆher-É™-sÄ“ , Ëˆhe-rÉ™- \
plural heresies
Definition of heresy
1a: adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma (see DOGMA sense 2)
They were accused of heresy.
b: denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church
c: an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma
2a: dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice
To disagree with the party leadership was heresy.
b: an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards
our democratic heresy which holds that â€¦ truth is to be found by majority vote
â€” M. W. Straight

shaunbwilson

Re: heresy

Site Admin Posts: 3213 **4/5/20 1:14 pm**

jimmyjon

Shaun that sounds good

Hey, DOC Posts: 87 **4/5/20 1:34 pm**

but the greater ecumenical Body you speak of still considers much of the Pentecostal theology subject at best and heretical at worst. And if you chose the World Council of Churches theologians as your proof sources then all of us would be put to the stake as heretics. To a great many Methodist approaching a storm of division in the coming months as to whether homosexuality is accepted teaching in the Bible or whether it is abominable in the Bible the answer is: wait for it....

which body of theologians you ask.

So to Dave and others charismatics are not orthodox and ergo heretical. And, please do not misunderstand me, some of the teachings of copeland primarily are in my view not based on truth and I guess therefore heresy but not all of them. And, he has actually modified and recanted some of the crazier stuff he was teaching in the eighties. Most of what is being pushed as highly suspect is very old stuff and he has moved away from that.

You must admit, without calling anyone names here to be clear, some people are quick to call heresy on stuff they personally disagree with. Not saying they are always wrong just an observation. There are those in our midst who respectfully disagree on some areas.

Dave Dorsey

Re: Shaun that sounds good

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **4/5/20 1:37 pm**

jimmyjon

and by the way

Hey, DOC Posts: 87 **4/5/20 1:41 pm**

Roger Olson is a Baptist theologian. He might not feel the same about my understanding on the gifts of the Spirit and their use for today or on "initial physical evidence". Why is he the arbiter of heresy or its definition when he is more likely in John Mcarthurs camp.

shaunbwilson

Re: Shaun that sounds good

Site Admin Posts: 3213 **4/5/20 1:43 pm**

Thanks for your earnest response, jimmyjon.

shaunbwilson

Re: and by the way

Site Admin Posts: 3213 **4/5/20 1:54 pm**

FG Minister

Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy

Acts-celerater Posts: 875 **4/6/20 8:27 am**

You admit that Copeland is a heretic. You say: "some of the teachings of Copeland primarily are in my view not based on truth and I guess therefore heresy, but not all of them."

Some heresy. I guess some heresy is tolerable.

On a recent trip to Uganda, I was discussing with a Ugandan pastor, the atrocities of Idi Amin. Amin killed 100,000's of people and also cannibalized some. The pastor showed me one of the torture chambers where blood is still on the walls. I asked him what it was like to live under the terror of Idi Amin. He said "it was bad, but the Ugandan Shilling was very strong against the US Dollar. So at least the economy was good."

If you can take a little heresy and the leading of millions astray into false doctrine, and as long as some of what he teaches is good, then I guess Copeland is OK. Another good thing - since he's not a cannibal, as far as we know, he must be a good guy.

Aaron Scott

Wilkerson missed it at least twice...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6032 **4/6/20 10:24 am**

I love Wilkerson. I was fascinated with "The Vision," which I believe was indeed a word from God.

But on at least two occasions, Wilkerson missed it....

First, he prophesied about "a thousand fires" in New York City or something very similar. When, after some years, it did not happen, he said that he had misjudged the grace of God (if I recall correctly). Because WILKERSON was angry at sin, etc., he felt sure that God would feel the same degree of anger and would quickly do something to judge America. When that didn't happen, Wilkerson was man enough to own it.

Then, in one of his monthly letters, he wrote about how the devil drove Jesus into the wilderness to be tested. The devil didn't drive Jesus anywhere; the Holy Ghost was the one that had Jesus go to the wilderness.

So maybe no one quite meets our high standard?

Link

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **4/6/20 12:35 pm**

I think we need to get our theology right about illness. There is this idea that is really common with WOFers and Bethel, Redding folks that God never causes disease. This idea was common in early Pentecostalism, but it hasn't really entrenched itself as much in that movement, unlike some of these others, because of the tendency of Pentecostals to read the whole Bible.

Ephesians 15:26
And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

Notice that the LORD takes credit for putting the diseases upon the Egyptians.

Here is another scripture we must consider.

Exodus 4:11
11 And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?

The position that God never caused any illness to come on anyone, even the wicked in rebellion against Him, is clearly unbiblical. God often uses agents to do things. He has angels and principalities do things. He uses humans to do things. It's His way to work through others, at least in many cases. If He used an angel to strike the Egyptians with the plague of the firstborn, that doesn't mean that He doesn't get credit.

Kenneth Hagin had this idea that God just 'allowed' bad stuff, as in calamities, to happen, and didn't cause it. He said that some feature of the Hebrew could be interpreted as Hebrew rather than caused, but it was pretty clear he didn't know Hebrew and hadn't really studied to determine if all relevant verses fell into the category he described or whether the argument made sense in context.

Is there any way to say that God 'allowed' the deaths of the Egyptians in this case?

Exodus 15
9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.
10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.

Whether He blew the wind and covered the Egyptian army or we want to take the ridiculous interpretation that He allowed Himself to blow the wind, He did it.

One man said all sickness is of the Devil because of this verse:

Acts 10:38
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

But this verse doesn't say that the Devil caused all sickness or whether Satan or a satan sometimes causes sickness at God's direction. It says Jesus went around doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil.

As Christians, we need to believe the whole Bible, and accept the portrayals of God as shown in scripture.

I dialogued briefly with someone from Bethel, a man with leg lengthening videos who went to their miracle school who seemed to have some anger issues. He was angry at disease. He held to the position that all sicknesses came from the Devil and not God. I pointed out Paul declaring Elymas blind. He was inclined to believe Paul was wrong about that. The passage says he was full of the Holy Ghost when he said it. I pointed out an angel struck Herod and he died after the incident where the people praised him as if he were a god. He thought the angel might have been at fault, and questioned the authority of scripture. I pointed out that he was putting the theories above the word of God, to the point where he would question the Bible over them.

He also pointed to a verse in II Corinthians about God reconciling the world to himself to support the idea that God does not judge nations until the end of the age. The verse did not say that, and universalists use that verse as well. I've heard the idea of God not judging nations from some folks I know who went to Bethel, Redding.

But these ideas had roots in Pentecostalism. I recall reading some of John G. Lake's ideas about healing. Hagin as in the A/G for a while. Reading the Bible moderates a lot of Pentecostals when it comes to issues like this. There is a lot of teaching out of the Old Testament. Some of the preachers in the larger Pentecostal or Charismatic movement hardly touch the Old Testament unless there are verses about health or healing or some well-known Bible story. Some of these opinions get entrenched in movements because there is little emphasis on the authority of scripture, light treatment of the Bible in the teaching, and people in the movements, particularly their leaders, not reading through scripture. Or maybe they read but somehow cannot perceive what the words on the page say.

God revealed in the Old Testament scriptures is God. And the book of Revelation and other books of the New Testament do not fit well with some of the views of God promoted by some of the preachers in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements.
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caseyleejones

Keep in mind...initial death estimates to this virus were....

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11796 **4/6/20 1:41 pm**

2-3% which would amount to a few million and this thing would last for many months. Maybe just wait and see.