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 Denominational Collapse Is Coming |
MI6 |
If the USA remains on Lock-down due to the Coronavirus through April 30th, 2020 the following will happen:
1. Many of the Church of God Members will loose their jobs and in turn lose their incomes, homes, etc.
2. Many of the Church of God Members that own a small business will be in bankruptcy and lose their incomes.
3. If the predicted unemployment rate of 25% - 30% takes place, every COG congregation will be impacted by the financial crisis.
4. Every COG congregation that has a debt (back loan) will not be able to make their payments due to the decrease in donations.
5. If the COG State Office of a State has underwritten millions of dollars in loans - that State Office will be Bankrupted.
6. If the combined State Offices do not have enough money in reserve to cover their underwritten loans - the Denomination HQ has to pay the loan debt.
7. If COG HQ cannot pay - Denominational Bankruptcy occurs and the COG will be dissolved in debtors court.
THE CLOCK IS TICKING ! |
Friendly Face
Posts: 140
4/2/20 3:48 pm
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Dr.Acts |
If history serves us well, our organisation came out of the 1918-1920 pandemics much stronger financially than ever before as the early minutes show clearly. We were even able to undergo the 1923 split with consecutive lawsuit and come on the other side of the Great Depression still swinging. And that is without the government spending trillions in aid or revers loan insurance. The one thing that can shake us this time is extending terms without a GA!
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Imperium centratus delenda est
Just the facts
Dr. J.D. Acts |
Friendly Face
Posts: 104
4/2/20 5:11 pm
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Dow Moses |
I say thou art a false prophet. God is able to carry the COG. God is bigger than a pandemic. If a denomination fails it will not because of a pandemic. Same with a local church. Who do we serve?
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DOW MOSES |
Friendly Face
Posts: 100
4/2/20 6:41 pm
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| It is my opinion ... |
Mat |
| Dr.Acts wrote: | | If history serves us well, our organisation came out of the 1918-1920 pandemics much stronger financially than ever before as the early minutes show clearly. We were even able to undergo the 1923 split with consecutive lawsuit and come on the other side of the Great Depression still swinging. And that is without the government spending trillions in aid or revers loan insurance. The one thing that can shake us this time is extending terms without a GA! |
It is my opinion, the trauma of the of the 1918 Pandemic, and the after effects of the recession which followed WWI contributed to the split in 1923.
In January of 1918 the new Bible school was started, with new staff and expenses. During the year the publishing ministry was expanded with new equipment, while at the same time many church members were lost to the flu, church services were canceled by the government (which at the same time was investigating the COG for its "members not going to war" teaching), and the General Assembly had to be canceled.
Keeping the printing ministry and the school opened fell on AJT, who used his home as the first "dorm" for many of the students - they lived with the Tomlinson and ate at their table. Some of the students did fall sick of the flu, with one dying. Though not reported widely, AJT's young granddaughter (Thelma Hughes) died of the flu in April of that year.
Reduced income, greater expense due to expansion, a building in Harriman, TN that was going unused, and great personal sacrifice due to housing the students had a greater effect on AJT then some historians fail to recognized.
Following the end of the pandemic and the war, COG begin new ministries, such as the orphanage and the building of a new church/tabernacle in Cleveland. The publishing house was expanded to accommodate the Bible school. This may have led to the terrible change in the financial system where all local tithes where sent to Cleveland, and in turn a committee of seven (which may have never operated) was to send money out based on need and effectiveness.
This led to financial shortages, for funding all the ministries going on in Cleveland. AJT made the mistake of moving money around to keep everything up and running. In the end it was, in my opinion, over expansion, the lack of money and AJT being too personality invested in the continued operation of the church.
For those who opposed AJT, the use of an incomplete audit and the claims he profited personally led to the split of 1923 (both claims were proven wrong in court). It was the COG who engaged in the lawsuits against AJT following the split (didn't someone say, "the COG has never lost a church building"), and I have always felt AJT's belief in not taking your brother to court failed him. He should of gotten lawyer-ed up like the COG did.
His since of believing he was called by God to lead the COG has its roots in the many personal sacrifices and vision he cast to get build the organization. Also, there were those false prophets in the assembly (1914) who stood up and said AJT should be GO for life.
So pastors and leaders, what will you sacrifice to keep you local church and denomination going? After its all over, how will you react when a someone says you did not wrong and its time for you to go?
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
4/3/20 8:29 am
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Dr.Acts |
Reading the court case minutes, COG had plenty of money to split and to spare.
You could be right of course, we could blame the split on WW1, pandemics, recessions,
when we all know it was centralized government that caused it, but my point was:
We are still here after all, aint we? I guess we are fixing to find out today 
_________________
Imperium centratus delenda est
Just the facts
Dr. J.D. Acts |
Friendly Face
Posts: 104
4/3/20 8:40 am
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| Re: Denominational Collapse Is Coming |
roughridercog |
| MI6 wrote: | If the USA remains on Lock-down due to the Coronavirus through April 30th, 2020 the following will happen:
1. Many of the Church of God Members will loose their jobs and in turn lose their incomes, homes, etc.
2. Many of the Church of God Members that own a small business will be in bankruptcy and lose their incomes.
3. If the predicted unemployment rate of 25% - 30% takes place, every COG congregation will be impacted by the financial crisis.
4. Every COG congregation that has a debt (back loan) will not be able to make their payments due to the decrease in donations.
5. If the COG State Office of a State has underwritten millions of dollars in loans - that State Office will be Bankrupted.
6. If the combined State Offices do not have enough money in reserve to cover their underwritten loans - the Denomination HQ has to pay the loan debt.
7. If COG HQ cannot pay - Denominational Bankruptcy occurs and the COG will be dissolved in debtors court.
THE CLOCK IS TICKING ! |
God and the church is bigger than the buck. We may have to adjust, streamline, consolidate, etc. but this situation has not taken Gd by surprise. Is it time for states and territories to be consolidated and reduce the number of ABs? Yes
Is it a good idea four three small churches in close proximity to be consolidated? It makes good sense. (Oh that will change the number of churches in the state--Oh cry me a river. Our church roles haven't been honest for decades)
Is it time for some small churches to be weaned off of state budgets? Yes, and right now you can probably think of some.
This may cause the local,state, and general church to rethink programs and practices. Make it a good thing.
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
4/3/20 10:53 am
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| Re: Denominational Collapse Is Coming |
Dr.Acts |
| roughridercog wrote: | | Is it a good idea four three small churches in close proximity to be consolidated? |
Mixing 3 church cultures overnight could be an administrative nightmare!
Do you have an actual working example of such 3 near you?
_________________
Imperium centratus delenda est
Just the facts
Dr. J.D. Acts |
Friendly Face
Posts: 104
4/3/20 11:18 am
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| Re: Denominational Collapse Is Coming |
roughridercog |
| Dr.Acts wrote: | | roughridercog wrote: | | Is it a good idea four three small churches in close proximity to be consolidated? |
Mixing 3 church cultures overnight could be an administrative nightmare!
Do you have an actual working example of such 3 near you? |
Not locally. We live an hour away from our church. But I have ministered in areas where it would have been quite feasible. The toughest question might be, "What will the pastors of the consolidated churches do?"
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
4/3/20 11:24 am
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| Re: Denominational Collapse Is Coming |
Dr.Acts |
| roughridercog wrote: | | "What will the pastors of the consolidated churches do?" |
Hopefully, not becoming the pastor of the church you're pastoring
_________________
Imperium centratus delenda est
Just the facts
Dr. J.D. Acts |
Friendly Face
Posts: 104
4/3/20 11:32 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| I have heard the consolidation idea before. It may work in some situations, but most small churches are led by bivocational pastors who sacrifice themselves already to keep their church going. If they can’t afford to keep the doors open, they obviously must close or merge with another church. But if they can keep the doors open, who’s to say they should be forced to merge? And who’s going to enforce that? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
4/3/20 11:38 am
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| RE: |
Rick Metzgar Jr |
I never post here, but I disagree with this.
I would better say it that a denominational consolidation will take place.
Churches well capitalized will absorb the other smaller churches and properties and make life giving churches out of them.
Things won't split though, they will be downsized/consolidated but it's addition through subtraction. It will be a tigher and healthier ship overall. |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2003
4/6/20 6:31 pm
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shaunbwilson |
Rick, I think you are right. When you look at the Generational Theory of Strauss and Howe, it seems that we are entering the peak of our Crisis Turning. The most recent Crisis Turning was World War II, and you can see the parallels between the society living in the current pandemic over the past few weeks and the society that lived through the Great Depression and war. The Surgeon General likened this week to Pearl Harbor and people are looking to the institution to consolidate our efforts to overcome the "hidden enemy" threat to the nation.
Crisis Turnings begin with a strong economic downturn (like the Great Depression and the 2008 financial crisis) and end with a total war that fundamentally changes society from that point forward. During this time, the institution strengthens and individualism weakens. We have already seen this take place as a moratorium on peaceful assembly is embraced with relatively little kerfuffle about Americans' individual rights and the suspension of elections for the good of public health is discussed and widely embraced. We will continue to see the strengthening of the institution at the expense of the individual through the peak of the Crisis, and it will be at its strongest during the next Turning—a "High"—and it will be embraced by society.
In the same way that the institution of government is bolstered during this time, the institution of the church will also be embraced. We should expect to see denominations consolidate and independent churches move toward folding into these denominations, whether by choice in the name of greater ecumenical unity, for the legal protection or administrative support they will receive, or out of necessity due to financial circumstances.
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Site Admin
Posts: 3209
4/6/20 7:11 pm
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| RE: Shaun |
Rick Metzgar Jr |
I just don't understand why I see postings especially on social media about being so excited to get things back to "normal". Things will never be as they were. EVER.
We will have gatherings again of course, but that will be a smaller emphasis and the online streaming/youtube etc will become more of the frontdoor rather than the "sidepiece". You'll have more people engaged and I think our emphasis will be less on numbers (butts in seats) to influence and how many people we are reaching weekly with the combined totals.
We are growing during this time and adding to our dream team. |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2003
4/6/20 9:11 pm
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| The first 4 are true for anyone - the later 3, well … |
Dr.Acts |
If the USA remains on Lock-down due to the Coronavirus through April/May/June... 13th, 2020-21 the following will happen:
1. Many Americans will loose their jobs and in turn lose their incomes, homes, etc.
2. Many Americans that own a small business will be in bankruptcy and lose their incomes.
3. If the predicted unemployment rate of 25% - 30% takes place, every Americans will be impacted by the financial crisis.
4. Every Americans that has a debt (back loan) will not be able to make their payments due to the decrease in finances.
5. If the COG State Office of a State has underwritten millions of dollars in loans - that State Office will … sell few smaller churches and patch the budget!
6. If the combined State Offices do not have enough money in reserve to cover their underwritten loans - the Denomination HQ will order that State Office to sell few smaller churches and patch the budget!
7. If COG HQ cannot pay - Denominational Bankruptcy will not occur, because several buildings around the globe could be quickly sold and converted into a cash flow that can patch the 20 million annual budget of the organization; few millions can be saved from not having an Assembly, and so on and so on.
When you approach our movement not as a body-organism of living people, but as a business, a few corporate moves can save the day.
THE CLOCK has been TICKING for years and we’ve been doing this for years!
_________________
Imperium centratus delenda est
Just the facts
Dr. J.D. Acts |
Friendly Face
Posts: 104
4/7/20 9:07 am
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| The Church of God is NOT going to collapse... |
Aaron Scott |
A few things to address as I have read over these things:
It was NOT centralized government that caused the 1923 split. It was a form of jealousy. There were men who would never be able to be the GO if AJT stayed in power. There was also likely significant disagreement at times with his direction...which contributed to the endgame. The whole misappropriation things was a just the reason given. The truth was that this could have been resolved gently and quietly, but two things contributed to it not being settled that way: 1) The gameplaying of using AJT's misappropriation to question his integrity; and 2) AJT's umbrage at having his integrity questioned, when he felt he had acted only in the larger interests of the church.
It never occurred to me how the 1918 flu epidemic and the following recession might have contributed to the matter. That's actually a very good point. If everything had continued as it had before, there might have been no need to have to move funds around.
Recessions and Depressions can INCREASE the need for church. People may not have as much money, but they will give as generously as they can to keep a place of refuge and encouragement open. I shared the other day how W.A. Criswell, while pastoring a small Texas church during the Depression found it important to expand the church. People bought in big time! They sold saddles and the such in order to provide money for the building. And it got done!
There may be some strategic mergers. That makes sense in virtually any economy. But in my small town, the nearest Church of God is over 11 miles away. The district church is about 20 miles. That's not a long way to most folks...but it is utterly impossible for the very poor children who come here. And that would be a tragedy, I think....
The Church of God can reduce it's expenditures in a number of ways, one of which (at least regarding Florida) is:
We have a beautiful state office. I don't know how much (if any) the lease costs us for that very nice office building. But if it costs us very much at all, we could simply relocate our state offices to the Wimauma campgrounds (where there are offices attached to the Tabernacle). Yes, folks might have to drive a little further. At the same time, however, if staff moved to that area, they would almost certainly find that the properties/houses are much cheaper due to being far from the city center (Tampa/Brandon). |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
4/7/20 9:08 am
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| RE: |
Rick Metzgar Jr |
It's going to force us to really take a hard look throughout different regions and see fruitful churches/ flourishing and then shut down some of the other ones who are way behind. Some of those properties are worth millions. Sell those facilities and distribute them among the stronger churches and merge them. Consolidate, Consolidate, Consolidate.
I know it would tick off some of those Pastors, but Jesus talks about Kingdom efficiency. Look at the parables of Jesus. |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2003
4/7/20 11:02 am
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| Consolidate? |
Dr.Acts |
| Rick Metzgar wrote: | | Consolidate, Consolidate, Consolidate. |
But the reason you have strong regions is not past consolidation, but steady growth. Once you Consolidate, Consolidate, Consolidate, will you have these strong regions?
No! They are consisted of people who will simply leave. These are churches, not small or big companies we can merge without consequences on people, families and lives.
For crying out loud, even when you merge companies you have to let people go. Should we also let members go when we merge churches?
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Imperium centratus delenda est
Just the facts
Dr. J.D. Acts |
Friendly Face
Posts: 104
4/7/20 11:22 am
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| Dr. Acts...you are correct |
Aaron Scott |
Consider what happens when we merge two churches. Who is going to be the Adult Sunday School teacher? The one at the take-over church...or the the one from the took-over church? How will we decide? By going with the one who is "better." Good luck pulling that off without losing someone.
Sis. Betty has been playing the piano for 30 years at the took-over church. She can't play all that well, but she's been faithful. The pianist at the big church has been the pianist for 3 years.... Good luck with that one too.
Pastors? The took-over church has a pastor who has been in ministry for 40 years. The take-over church has a pastor who has been in ministry for 12 years. Whose the pastor? When does the old pastor get a chance to preach?
When musicians and ministers find that they aren't going to have much of a chance to play or minister, most will move on. On the bright side, that means some other church may benefit. On the down side...it can mean that the merger only retained a small percentage of the took-over church.
I am not disputing that there are times when a church might need to be taken-over. But it's gonna hurt...and it's gonna cost us.
All you have to do is think about why in the world the COG and the COGOP don't merge. There's a very good reason: People are going to lose their place. I don't consider that a selfish motive, necessarily. I mean, if you know you are gifted to lead, but will likely lose your place, you might not be all that willing to hang around. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
4/7/20 11:38 am
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| Aaron Scott - COG/COGOP |
Mat |
I would agree, that most of the resistance to the "healing" of the 1923 split that resulted in the COG and COGOP, is strongest in Cleveland, followed by state/regional/national offices.
So what's it going to take for leadership to let go of their positions - which is primary what needs to happen in the COGOP - and what needs to happen to cause the COG leadership (and denomination) to accept COGOP members and ministers as equals in the body? Is the answer a pandemic, followed by a recession, mixed with the older generations not willing to forgive and move on dying off? Maybe so.
The church landscape has changed for denominations with multi-level leadership structure which practices forms of hierarchical government. Smaller local churches are dying off and large local churches are running, leaving a diminishing base to support the various ministries above the pastor (they are my brothers, and they are heavy at times).
When you add in the great sin of not even trying to bring about reconciliation for the Kingdom sake and the Church's witness, something got to give. As far as I'm concerned, it would please the Lord if all the COGOP leadership in Cleveland and the state/regional/national offices when back (or started) to being a pastor (our COGOP leaders are always decrying the lack of pastors on the field, put up or shut up). Now the employees at the COGOP International Offices, I would hope the COG would consider them for helping with a few in the transition.
Here's the thing, COG has voting and term limits - if there are any COGOP leaders who are gifted, they will rise to the top. 2023 could be the time of unity in the Church of God Movement.
Mat
PS You may have heard the old story about he COG minister who was trying to bring about a merger between COG and PHC back in the 60s (?). One of the sticking points, according to the story was the name of the new denomination. Someone pointed out the "The Pentecostal Church" would be a great name to unite under and so the minister went back and forth between General Offices to try and get agreement. He became upset with COG when he felt that PHC was willing to move forward on the name, but not COG. Its reported he said in exasperation, "If the PHC is willing to given up "Holiness" why can't the COG give of "God." |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
4/11/20 10:47 am
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| Re: Denominational Collapse Is Coming |
Hill Poover |
| Mr. Roughrider, you say that "God and the church is bigger than the buck." You pre-suppose that God is pleased with the system of the Church of God. Just maybe God will use such as has been suggested to humble the Church of God and save it or destroy it if it is beyond saving? Just thinking out loud here. I've attended the COG for almost 40 years and I can say that this is not the same COG that I joined. |
Newbie
Posts: 8
4/11/20 1:24 pm
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