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 The Collapse of the COG is near and the Counsel of 18 may be creating it |
sadlytrue77 |
IF GA is cancelled and Terms are extended its over for the COG. This will be a brake of the minutes and bylaws. Fundamentally the organization will be open to lawsuit and defunct. It doesnot matter what people want or what is convenient. The bylaws must be followed. The 18 better not drop the ball on this just to keep some guys in office.
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Hate to say it, but its true
New Orleans Bred, Mississippi Led, Hopefully Arizona will be home before I'm dead.
*OnceASaintsFanAlwaysASaintsFan* |
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Posts: 113
4/16/20 8:46 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
"The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"
How about we show some faith in our leaders and pray for them instead?
Desperate times call for desperate measures. I would imagine there is a lot of trepidation about travel to another state with people from around the world. I can't imagine the US will open up meetings of 10,000 people or more by then, anyhow.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5910
4/16/20 9:42 pm
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Darrell Garrett |
| I'm no longer in the COG but I have to chime in. I don't see your scenario playing out at all. Hypothetically, let's say an earthquake hit the city the GA was to be held in and did enough damage. Are you saying that if they canceled the GA under those circumstances the COG would be doomed? I just don't see it. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5329
4/16/20 10:40 pm
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| The US will be open by then... |
sadlytrue77 |
Carolyn... The Big race is happening in Indianapolis around the same time as the assembly. A week or two after. GA is a tiny gathering compared to most athletic events and even some concerts and so on.
Darrell... The U.S. will not be closed down in July. Besides that. If they postpone it to late in the year nothing could probably be said. If they just cancel it and wait two years they will be breaking the bylaws without good reason.
_________________
Hate to say it, but its true
New Orleans Bred, Mississippi Led, Hopefully Arizona will be home before I'm dead.
*OnceASaintsFanAlwaysASaintsFan* |
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Posts: 113
4/17/20 6:30 am
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Eddie Robbins |
| Fake News |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
4/17/20 7:03 am
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Dave Dorsey |
It's a shame COG folks generally don't gamble, someone could make some real money betting against this outcome.  |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
4/17/20 7:49 am
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Dr.Acts |
Bro. Dave,
I believe someone just did this week...
| uthdude2000 wrote: | Canceling our 2020 General Assembly because of worldwide pandemics
Certainly, a possibility of issues that should be looked at with several conceivable outcomes:
1. No election is held and current office positions are held off for another year or so until the pandemics is neutralized - this will require change in procedure.
2. Electronic elections for change of office are held worldwide in lieu of the 2020 General Assembly - this will also require change in procedure
3. General Assembly 2020 is held in disregard of the coronavirus pandemics. Despite many prayers and praise reports, cases of coronavirus emerge from Indianapolis following with death cases across America. The newly elected Executive Committee resigns by Christmas and change of procedure is once again mandatory.
A century ago, our organization did not believe in going to the doctor and some even handled snakes in various Cleveland revivals, but had enough sense to cancel the 1918 General Assembly due to the worldwide influenza.
What, IF ANYTHING has changed a century later?
Your Thoughts??? |
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Imperium centratus delenda est
Just the facts
Dr. J.D. Acts
Last edited by Dr.Acts on 4/17/20 9:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Posts: 104
4/17/20 8:29 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Sorry, I meant to refer to the outcome of the COG collapsing as a result of postponing the GA. I agree that there is a very high likelihood (near certainty) that the GA will be postponed. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
4/17/20 9:09 am
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Dr.Acts |
Unless the usual suspects don't start campaigning here anytime soon, they will run out of time to get elected.
And I don't see them campaigning anymore after some started and stopped, and a few supporters came back out of the blue (for a season) so...
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Imperium centratus delenda est
Just the facts
Dr. J.D. Acts |
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Posts: 104
4/17/20 9:31 am
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| Some commonsense thoughts... |
Aaron Scott |
I don't think anyone in the Church of God would be all outraged about postponing the General Assembly under such circumstances. While my state may not be on lockdown, other states may still be.
Further, some folks have been off of work with no paycheck, and it is simply not going to be at all affordable to go to the General Assembly. At the same time, some businesses have been shut down for a good while now, and they are not going to want people "going on vacation" right when its time to finally get back to work!
In my over half-a-century in the Church of God, I have never known of a bad General Overseer. I'm sure that people closer to the action have seen the flaws or shortcomings in them all, but as far as the larger Church of God, it's going to be fine with us if Tim Hill continues for another two years. Besides, we were almost certainly going to reelect him anyway. He's done and is doing a good job.
If the Church of God wants to have this unusual situation count against term limits, fine. But as far as I'm concerned, I'm good if we just keep on chugging along until the next General Assembly and not make it count against anyone.
In the future, we may face situations where we simply cannot meet. Gas costs could be prohibitive. Terrorism. Pandemics. Whatever. What then? We need to add to the Minutes a "clause" that, under circumstances that are clearly prohibitive, and after consulting with all state offices--and after the state offices have consulted with at least 60% of state pastors--the Executive level will make a decision as to whether to hold the General Assembly or not, and/or whether to hold it using other means of voting (e.g., mail-in, electronic, etc.), and/or whether to rely solely upon the vote of the General Council in such times, etc.
At the same time, it can be determined how to deal with extended terms. My suggestion is simple: If you would have been permitted to serve a new term, then it shouldn't count against you. If you were on your last term, then the extra time in office is gravy.
As for voting electronically, WE ALREADY DO. Those hand-held devices are wired, I'm sure, to a LAN, etc. Now, the problem is that, unless we have recently changed, the Church of God DOES NOT KNOW THE NAMES OF ALL THE MEMBERS.
The COG knows the names of all it's ministers. But the names and SS numbers of all members is unknown, and so it is conceivable that someone unqualified could register to vote in the General Assembly--whether we vote by hand, by paper, or electronically!
THIS NEEDS TO CHANGE.
Every single member of the Church of God--their full name, their address, phone number, and any other relevant information (Soc. Sec. number?) should be on a database at headquarters. This would not only help us to eliminate the duplication that can arise when a member of one church transfers to another, but his/her name is never taken off of the old church's roll. Also, it's good to have that information.
I propose that all General Council members be given the opportunity to vote online AFTER providing clear identification information. This will at least let us decide on the how to handle term limits under the circumstances.
Last edited by Aaron Scott on 4/17/20 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
4/17/20 10:31 am
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UncleJD |
conventions that can't meet proper distancing requirements will be allowed by phase 3 of the new guidelines. But what/when/how that works won't be known for a few more weeks at the earliest. I think they have to show steady declines in cases (right now the # of cases are still increasing). My gut says most conventions will be reduced-capacity but allowed by high-summer in most cities except maybe New York, LA, Chicago which may take the whole summer to get to phase 3.
Last edited by UncleJD on 4/17/20 11:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3139
4/17/20 10:48 am
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sadlytrue77 |
| UncleJD wrote: | | conventions that can't meet proper distancing requirements will be allowed by phase 3 of the new guidelines. But what/when/how that works won't be known for a few more weeks at the earliest. I think they have to show steady declines in cases (right now the # of cases are still increasing). My gut says most conventions will be reduced-capacity by allowed by high-summer in most cities except maybe New York, LA, Chicago which may take the whole summer to get to phase 3. |
This is the likely happening.
_________________
Hate to say it, but its true
New Orleans Bred, Mississippi Led, Hopefully Arizona will be home before I'm dead.
*OnceASaintsFanAlwaysASaintsFan* |
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Posts: 113
4/17/20 10:51 am
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| Its obvious |
sadlytrue77 |
Someone does not under stand contract negotiation. Why is so many people including council of 18 and executive committe talking about postponement when they have not secured a release from the contract. Now Indy just has to sit back and wait for us to cancel and keep our money. Grate preachers are not always grate business people.
_________________
Hate to say it, but its true
New Orleans Bred, Mississippi Led, Hopefully Arizona will be home before I'm dead.
*OnceASaintsFanAlwaysASaintsFan* |
Friendly Face
Posts: 113
4/17/20 10:53 am
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| Re: Some commonsense thoughts... |
Dr.Acts |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | No one in the Church of God--EXCEPT UTTER MORONS!--would be all upset about postponing the General Assembly under such circumstances. |
Thanks for sharing Aaron,
I didn’t have you for being ordained for 50 years, but this speaks of excellency and great track records.
We’ve already discussed some of your points on other threads:
(1) An emergency clause as you propose is only good if we know the scope of the emergency. A general emergency clause would be seen by many of our brethren abuse of power and in fact could be used that way theoretically. Just imagine having such back in 96...
(2) We do vote electronically while gathered in one signal site, but we have no capacity to vote from multiple remote locations and the technology that allows this will not comply with our Robert’s Rules of Order. A change of procedure is a must before further considerations on any remote global electronic voting.
(3) Your mention of social security numbers as ID is unsubstantial to the topic of global electronic voting. You may not include our international brothers, but both the gathering of other countries SS/ID # and ours as well in such single system opens the door for a major security breech and would present a legal disaster. Not to mention in many countries, securing and storing SS/ID # in one single database not owned by their appropriate government would be a major crime.
(4) Either way, even if you reach consensus on all of the above, to gather thousands of votes from our voting ministers globally, calculate them without error, hacking and any suspicion would be a technological miracle of itself. Then, are you prepared to have a voted-in general overseer from South America or Indonesia where most single nomination votes could come from? You don’t need to answer that.
(5) Finally, I would first check if the GA site is not currently allocated for a field hospital as it is for example the site of our Nashville assembly.
Anyhow, all good points and a great start in the right direction of a long-needed discussion. However, you should refrain from calling names. It is quite possible with the recent appointment that Dr. Hill himself may have plans to move on and serve in another capacity that cannot wait two extra years.
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Imperium centratus delenda est
Just the facts
Dr. J.D. Acts |
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Posts: 104
4/17/20 12:41 pm
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| Re: Some commonsense thoughts... |
Aaron Scott |
| Dr.Acts wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | No one in the Church of God--EXCEPT UTTER MORONS!--would be all upset about postponing the General Assembly under such circumstances. |
Thanks for sharing Aaron,
I didn’t have you for being ordained for 50 years, but this speaks of excellency and great track records.
We’ve already discussed some of your points on other threads:
Not ordained for 50 years; a member for over 50 years.
(1) An emergency clause as you propose is only good if we know the scope of the emergency. A general emergency clause would be seen by many of our brethren abuse of power and in fact could be used that way theoretically. Just imagine having such back in 96...
That's why I mentioned that it needed to be situation that is clearly prohibitive. I absolutely believe in accountability, but when the General Assembly has been cancelled ONCE (if I recall correctly) in more than a century...and now, perhaps the second time in more than a century, I think everyone is going to have a pretty clear understanding of what really merits postponement. Besides, if we don't trust our leaders more than that--as if they will immediately do the wrong thing the moment we aren't looking--well, I would think that if I felt that way, I'd want to find another organization, right?
(2) We do vote electronically while gathered in one signal site, but we have no capacity to vote from multiple remote locations and the technology that allows this will not comply with our Robert’s Rules of Order. A change of procedure is a must before further considerations on any remote global electronic voting.
I am speaking specifically of election voting, if people aren't happy about allowing some ministers to continue past the end of their term under the circumstances.
The fact is that we typically have only a fraction of people speak to any topic. So it might not be as difficult to operate as we would think. Further, there are surely best practices out there for online operations. For one thing, the vote would be far more precise than whichever side can say "aye" or "nay" the loudest.
(3) Your mention of social security numbers as ID is unsubstantial to the topic of global electronic voting. You may not include our international brothers, but both the gathering of other countries SS/ID # and ours as well in such single system opens the door for a major security breech and would present a legal disaster. Not to mention in many countries, securing and storing SS/ID # in one single database not owned by their appropriate government would be a major crime.
I tend to agree that it would be problematic. So whatever we need to do to ascertain legitimacy is fine. If we have people show up for the General Assembly voting, whatever they do to validate that they are members in good standing would presumably be fine. As for other countries, perhaps their own COG leadership teams would certify just who is and is not a valid entrant.
(4) Either way, even if you reach consensus on all of the above, to gather thousands of votes from our voting ministers globally, calculate them without error, hacking and any suspicion would be a technological miracle of itself. Then, are you prepared to have a voted-in general overseer from South America or Indonesia where most single nomination votes could come from? You don’t need to answer that.
I am prepared for it. However, as I have mentioned here and elsewhere, it will almost certainly create the "need" to have separate General Assemblies. Why? Because the USA provides most funding, so far as I know, for our oversees efforts, etc. Further, the COG began here--not too far from Cleveland. So there is a lot of weight on the side of keeping leadership in the USA.
That doesn't mean it's RIGHT to do so, but if end result is less giving to foreign missions, it may be that whatever works is what will be considered right. I would think that each global region could elect it's own "General Overseer" and have their own General Assemblies. However, in terms of DOCTRINE, there would need to be global involvement--perhaps all the Councils of 18 and GO's and Assistant GO's meeting to discuss--after gathering information from their constituents?
OR...we could make it such that there if there are, say, seven global regions, then there would be seven executives. The GO might be from the USA, but the assistant positions could be reserved for a member from each region? Of course, then you get into assassination attempts and the such, since these guys are apparently of that sort. (SMILE). I don't know the answer on that, but it is for sure that we must balance the legitimate claim of "if we give the most, we should XYZ" with the claim of "if we have the votes, we should XYZ."
(5) Finally, I would first check if the GA site is not currently allocated for a field hospital as it is for example the site of our Nashville assembly.
Anyhow, all good points and a great start in the right direction of a long-needed discussion. However, you should refrain from calling names. It is quite possible with the recent appointment that Dr. Hill himself may have plans to move on and serve in another capacity that cannot wait two extra years.
Indeed, that could have been better said--and I'll tone it down. However, I was specifically addressing those who are acting like the Church of God would be in an uproar if the powers-that-be tried to take away our precious General Assembly. Makes about as much sense as those who claim that the government is up to some nefarious stunt by closing down churches.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
4/17/20 1:38 pm
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| Good questions |
Dr.Acts |
Not sure if they are commonsense or even common knowledge, but definitely a good path toward finding some answers.
One can easily get out of it by saying you just created more problems than answers 
IMO however we cal split the post in 3-4 of the questions and keep on digging, while not hi-jacking this fine doomsday OP by our brother
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Imperium centratus delenda est
Just the facts
Dr. J.D. Acts |
Friendly Face
Posts: 104
4/17/20 3:41 pm
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| Re: Some commonsense thoughts... |
Dr.Acts |
[quote="Aaron Scott"] We need to add to the Minutes a "clause" that, under circumstances that are clearly prohibitive, and after consulting with all state offices--and after the state offices have consulted with at least 60% of state pastors--the Executive level will make a decision as to whether to hold the General Assembly or not, and/or whether to hold it using other means of voting (e.g., mail-in, electronic, etc.), and/or whether to rely solely upon the vote of the General Council in such times, etc.
Resolution added and no one even asked you
Who said we have no clause for authority granted by the IGA?
When is "until such time " if the pandemics take 3 peaks past 2022?
In a meeting of the International Executive Council on April 20, 2020, the following resolution was adopted:
Be It Therefore Resolved that the International Executive Council herein exercises the above-noted authority granted it by the International General Assembly, and declares that all persons currently holding general elected positions continue in their positions with full legal and ecclesiastical authority until such time as nominations or elections by the International General Council and elections by the International General Assembly can be properly conducted and successors chosen.
_________________
Imperium centratus delenda est
Just the facts
Dr. J.D. Acts |
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Posts: 104
4/21/20 5:20 pm
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