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Should Gays and Lesbians Be Allowed to Minister at Church?

 
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Post Should Gays and Lesbians Be Allowed to Minister at Church? Link
Should Gays and Lesbians be Allowed to Minister in Church?

In the language used by the LGBT society, and most Americans, 'homosexual', 'gay', 'lesbian' etc. refer to an 'orientation', not necessarily those who perform sexual acts. They treat the orientation as a normal thing, though. Originally, 'homosexual' had to do with the tendency to be attracted to the same sex. A lot of people, baby boomers, some gen-X, and Fundamentalist Christians think it means people who do certain acts.

If you say 'gays cannot serve in any capacity in our church', they would think that means forever, for the rest of their life.

We don't have to accept their philosophy about orientation, but we should communicate clearly that we believe people can be washed, sanctified, and justified (I Corinthians 6:11) and may minister in the church after that. (I Peter 4:10.)

But we are not to keep company with the fornicator who calls himself a brother. If it applies to men who bed with their father's wives, why wouldn't it apply to men who bed men, the softy men who are bedded, and women who engage in same-sex behavior?

If we take not keeping company with fornicators, etc. seriously, we would probably have to abandon this idea that we should allow just anyone to come to church. The restriction is not on keeping company with sinners, but one who is called a brother who engages in that list of sins in I Corinthians 5.
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2/11/20 10:27 pm


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Post Of course I'm against it roughridercog
But it is entirely possible they are already doing so just not out of the closet.
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2/11/20 11:09 pm


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Post Re: Of course I'm against it Cojak
roughridercog wrote:
But it is entirely possible they are already doing so just not out of the closet.


That is a very good possibility. I have a cousin who says he is gay and a Christian but not GAY in practice. For the life of me I cannot see a reason for announcing or coming out. Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused
He says that is being true to himself. Strange also, he is the only self supporting sibling who gave to his parents rather than leeched off them. Shocked Confused
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2/12/20 10:13 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
Cojak, one reason for "coming out" could be to receive the compassion and support of the church community. I cannot imagine how difficult it must be for a believer who experiences same-sex attraction but chooses to deny his flesh and live in holiness. God help us to recognize the extreme faithfulness and discipline of these brothers, and to join our lives with them in strength and love.

I obviously don't know enough about your cousin to say this is the case for him and I don't know how to interpret the "true to himself" comment. But in general, I think we do create a very unsupportive environment for believers who experience this trial and want to crucify their flesh and live in holiness
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2/12/20 10:32 am


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Post I was allowed to minister in church, even though I was a HETEROsexual... Aaron Scott
However, being unmarried, I was not a PRACTICING heterosexual.

If someone has a homosexual orientation, but lives a celibate life, serving the Lord, then I wouldn't have a problem with them serving.

I WOULD have a problem with them announcing it, etc., since that would bring up questions and controversy.

Ray Boltz and Kurt Talley have certainly been used of God in singing or composing--all while having a homosexual orientation. Only when Boltz decided to adopt that lifestyle were we forced to break fellowship.

It is not the orientation that is the sin, for I think that is beyond the ability of anyone to help. But the ACTIONS that come from that orientation do matter.

I was attracted to women...but I was celibate until I married. Had I been sleeping around, I would not have been permitted to be a part of the ministry.
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2/12/20 10:50 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
Great post, Aaron. Now 67% friendlier!
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2/12/20 10:55 am


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Post Re: I was allowed to minister in church, even though I was a HETEROsexual... Link
Aaron Scott wrote:
However, being unmarried, I was not a PRACTICING heterosexual.

If someone has a homosexual orientation, but lives a celibate life, serving the Lord, then I wouldn't have a problem with them serving.


I do not believe we should not accept their underlying philosophy, that some people have a 'heterosexual orientation' or 'bisexual orientation' or 'homosexual orientation.'-- as if this is all just normal stuff. Now, with part of their moving doing away with the concept of fixed genders, it's all more complicated. The B in LGBT implies gender is binary.

A believer may struggle with same-sex attraction, but he or she does not need to accept 'homosexual', 'gay',' or 'lesbian as his or her identity. Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin but alive unto God.
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Post Dean Steenburgh
Plain & simple ...if they are gay & proud of their lifestyle & involved in a sexual lifestyle dating members of the same sex then they cannot be a member of our church & nor can they be involved in any ministry as a leader.
Yes they can attend worship & sing, pray & give in the offering.
I wouldn't feel comfortable with them receiving communion but I'm not going to halt the process during the service in order to make sure the gays are not taking crackers & juice.
I usually say something along the line of, "if you are taking the communion today but have not fully surrendered to God then consider waiting until you have had a time to come to Christ fully in your life."

If we had a person in good standing who went sideways for a few days & got all hot & bothered with someone else & then came back & repented I would work with them to help restore them in love w/out "outing" them publicly as long as it was more like a fling & it happened during a period of weakness.
However, if someone was determined to live that way & did not want to receive help or seek forgiveness then it would be a moot point to try & receive them back as a member in good standing.

The process for trying to figure out their sins is not for me to deal with, I'm just glad to see them repent & come back to the 99.
Sins of lust, drunkenness, porn, gambling, partying or any one of many other types might be a weakness that someone has to deal with & I just want to help them conquer this issue & move forward to maturity in Christ.


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2/12/20 9:15 pm


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Post Re: I was allowed to minister in church, even though I was a HETEROsexual... UncleJD
Link wrote:

A believer may struggle with same-sex attraction, but he or she does not need to accept 'homosexual', 'gay',' or 'lesbian as his or her identity. Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin but alive unto God.


We have a family friend who was going through this. We were very proud of him for taking the stand that he would have to struggle in life but would hold to God's truth and overcome. Sadly he eventually fell away and has begun to justify his homosexuality in the same terms as everyone else does, "God loves my homosexuality as long as I'm being honest with myself about it". He's studied scripture his whole life so there is no way he believes it, but he's let his lusts outweigh his convictions and entered into the lie of self-justification. Its sad to see it as his family was instrumental in leading my wife to the Lord. His sister is now a lesbian "minister" as well. Her youtube videos sound like an old-time "anointed" preacher but always end up with justifying and defending her gay sex. Its horrible to see and hear when its someone you care about.
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2/13/20 9:40 am


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Dean Steenburgh wrote:
Plain & simple ...if they are gay & proud of their lifestyle & involved in a sexual lifestyle dating members of the same sex then they cannot be a member of our church & nor can they be involved in any ministry as a leader.


What if a couple are shacking up, sleep together, have kids, but aren't married? Can they do these things? What if a married couple divorce or separate for no Biblical reason and one of them starts dating. Can they join or be on a ministry team?

Is not being a member or being on the ministry team the Biblical standard? Church membership seems to be based on being a Christian in the New Testament. If you get baptized, you are a member. And 'ministry teams'-- that would be quasi-biblical at best.

I Corinthians 5 talks about not keeping company with one who is called a brother who does any one of a long list of sins.

This is an issue I struggle with since I have a close relative who has a married girlfriend and issues with drugs. But he hasn't been going to church for a long time, so do we count him as a brother or one who is of this world?

Quote:

Yes they can attend worship & sing, pray & give in the offering.


You might want to keep the give in the offering bit out if you say this on YouTube.

Quote:

I wouldn't feel comfortable with them receiving communion but I'm not going to halt the process during the service in order to make sure the gays are not taking crackers & juice.


Paul calls the Corinthian Christians a lump of dough in I Corinthians 5. In I Corinthians 5, calls them one bread in the context of communion. I Corinthians 5 warns that a little bit of leaven works its way throughout a lump of dough.

That is part of the argument not to keep company or eat with the fornicator in their midst.

I consider love feasts/feasts of charity to be holy communion. That seems reasonable based on what I have read. If we read Jude and II Peter together the false brethren and/or false teachers were spots 'on your love feasts' and 'spots and blemishes while they feast with you.'

A spot on a sacrifice, such as a Passover sacrifice, made the sacrifice unacceptable to the Lord. Jesus is a Lamb without spot or blemish. I Corinthians 5, the passage about expelling the fornicator, says to keep the feast not with the leavened bread of malice and wickedness or the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

So what I am leading up to is this, if we have unrepentant sinners who call themselves brothers and fit the I Corinthians 5 description or false brethren and false teachers promoting wickedness partaking of communion with us, does this make our communion akin to a sacrifice of a lamb with spot and blemish, unnacceptable to the Lord?

Quote:

I usually say something along the line of, "if you are taking the communion today but have not fully surrendered to God then consider waiting until you have had a time to come to Christ fully in your life."


Does the church have a responsibility before God to make sure it does not eat with certain people, rather than just thinking of this as the individual responsibility of those doing the eating.

He who eats and drinks unworthily eats and drinks condemnation on himself. That's himself as an individual. But if the whole church is judged, it is chastised that it not be condemned with the world-- that's the judgment of the group.

And if tolerating certain individuals-- false brethren or teachers in Jude and II Peter 2-- makes our feasts like a lamb with spot or blemish, there is that issue as well.

There is also the issue of leaven working its way through the whole lump.

Quote:

If we had a person in good standing who went sideways for a few days & got all hot & bothered with someone else & then came back & repented I would work with them to help restore them in love w/out "outing" them publicly as long as it was more like a fling & it happened during a period of weakness.
However, if someone was determined to live that way & did not want to receive help or seek forgiveness then it would be a moot point to try & receive them back as a member in good standing.


I would agree with that, except I think the scriptures are concerned with keeping company rather than writing their name on a membership list.

Quote:

The process for trying to figure out their sins is not for me to deal with, I'm just glad to see them repent & come back to the 99.


The shepherd in the parable went out to search for the one sheep who had gone astray. As a collective responsibility of the church, Hebrews 12 says to look diligently lest any fall of the grace of God. In this context, it mentions the profane person or fornicator.

IMO, showing mercy and restoring people should be step number 1 before any of the church disciplne stuff when someone falls.

Btw, I'm planning on turning this into a thread.
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