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If All You Ate was WOF Doctrine? (L)

 
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Post If All You Ate was WOF Doctrine? (L) Link
I came across this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imluDBBvTaQ

It is an interview with a couple who worked for Joyce Meyer's ministry. The man did most of the talking, so we hear more about his background.

So apparently, he got his understanding of Christianity from listening to WOF teaching. He had a picture of a Corvette on his desk at work and he would visualize and exercise his 'faith' to get that Corvette. He grew up in a church where his pastor had a barn bigger than most people's houses to house all his luxury cars, so he considered a normal thing to believe God for a Corvette.

One of his co-workers asked him why he would set his desires on such a thing, and asked him why he would love the things of this world, and he referred him to John Piper's teachings. Eventually, the man in the video realized that many things he had been taught weren't Biblical. For example, the idea the Jesus Died Spiritually teaching that WOFers including Meyer's taught.

He said they used to get people to go through the motions and supposedly get saved really quick, then getting them to believe God and exercise their faith to get the things they wanted.

Something that bothers me a bit in the video is that it seems like he has swung too far in another direction. He's talking about Justin Peters, a cessationist, and the conversation seems to go in the direction of being against God speaking to people. Some of these people who get burnt by the error of WOF doctrine go full blown cessationist, which is sad.

I look at WOF from he perspective of someone raised in Pentecostalism where I have heard sermons on denying yourself and taking up the cross and following Jesus. I've heard occasional preaching against covetousness, and i remember a preacher saying if he had a Ford or a Mercedes, either one was a hunk of metal that got him from one place to another. At least __some__ Pentecostals emphasize not loving the things of this world. I also have read the Bible from a young age and have memorized a lot of scripture. A lot of my beliefs come from reading scripture I've heard little attention paid to in church.

I have this background of teaching and Biblical knowledge, so I can see that some WOF preaching sure sounds greedy, but as far as the concepts of faith, that parts of it are good, but they seem extreme in some areas. It is also irritating to see preachers who seem so willing to come up with a new and shocking insight that they take liberty with the text and interpret it to mean things it does not say. This seems to be a common practice with some of the WOFers.

I also know that Hagin taught against coveteousness. I don't know if he ever went into detail about the evils of loving money. It seems like he thought teaching faith was his special calling. But then, entire churches sprung up focused on however many verses, maybe 80 or so, on faith and prosperity, and some of those churches paid little attention to the rest of scripture. If you grow up hearing about faith to get money all the time, and you have lusts of the flesh that you never hear that you are to resist, you could end up really greedy, thinking of God as if He were a vending machine and faith as if it were quarters or dollar bills.

Some of the attitudes about displaying wealth I've heard from WOFers, especially teachers, also seem quite unseemly. There is a whole culture of it, and since WOFers are similar and share __some__ theological roots with Pentecostals, some Pentecostals accept them.

It might be helpful if there were more resources out there from people who believed in spiritual gifts and the operation of the Spirit today that refuted some of the WOF error, available on YouTube and other places where those who are confused and want to detox can find it, so they don't all go to the Reformed cessationists. They probably exist, but don't have the hits.

I think they also had legitimate concerns about WOF teaching that Pentecostals tend to be guilty of. On is ignoring the law of Moses, but then applying the tithe teaching and saying those who do not do it are under a curse. (Of course, it is not applied as taught in the Bible, where tithes went to the descendants of Aaron, etc. but instead to the church.)

The other is pushing people through a quick ritual and considering them saved without much concern as to weather or not the individuals involved repented and believed. I have seen many Pentecostal altar calls and 'challenges' to people who remain in the pew to repeat a prayer without so much as explaining who Jesus is, what the cross was all about, or that Christ rose from the dead.
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Post Dave Dorsey
Good post. There are a decent number of reformed baptist continuationists writing books and publishing videos. I think they probably do get drowned out by folks on either side of them.

I agree that the church would benefit immensely from orthodox Pentecostal denominations like the COG, AG, etc. crusading against excessive charismatic/WoF doctrine. I think this would benefit Pentecostal theology as well, by making it clear that Pentecostal theology absolutely does not affirm WoF or charismatic excess.

The reformed folks are filling a void for people who recognize that WoF/Bethel/etc. are wildly unbiblical and are hungry for biblical truth. It would be great if the COG/AG worked to fill that void with an orthodox Pentecostal voice as well.
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Post Quiet Wyatt
I think a big factor in why classical Pentecostals don’t generally attack WoF doctrine is that WoF doctrine does not generally, in itself, violate the basic doctrines the CoG and AoG hold as essential. Position papers have been published addressing serious concerns with WoF doctrine and practice, but the nature of these denominations is not confessional in its approach, nor is it dogmatic with regard to things not covered in things like the CoG DoF or Doctrinal Commitments. Even on doctrines that the CoG has historically been opposed to by the vast majority, such as unconditional eternal security or even full-blown Calvinism, the CoG has no definite stand, and one can teach such doctrines and remain a member or minister in good standing while holding such views. Both the AoG and the CoG originally held strongly anticreedalist views. For better or for worse, that antidogmatic legacy remains to some extent to this day. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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Post Dave Dorsey
Very good points, QW. Now 67% friendlier!
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Quiet Wyatt wrote:
I think a big factor in why classical Pentecostals don’t generally attack WoF doctrine is that WoF doctrine does not generally, in itself, violate the basic doctrines the CoG and AoG hold as essential. Position papers have been published addressing serious concerns with WoF doctrine and practice, but the nature of these denominations is not confessional in its approach, nor is it dogmatic with regard to things not covered in things like the CoG DoF or Doctrinal Commitments. Even on doctrines that the CoG has historically been opposed to by the vast majority, such as unconditional eternal security or even full-blown Calvinism, the CoG has no definite stand, and one can teach such doctrines and remain a member or minister in good standing while holding such views. Both the AoG and the CoG originally held strongly anticreedalist views. For better or for worse, that antidogmatic legacy remains to some extent to this day.


That's true, unless you count the denominational statements as 'creeds.' The IPHC official upholds certain creeds and church councils as I recall.

But Pentecostal preachers could still deal with specific WOF teachings that flat out contradict the Bible. I haven't really followed the WOF movement, but in the 1980's, I could stand to watch more than a few minutes of Copeland or Price because i'd find myself wanting to quote scriptures at the screen that contradicted their teaching, and they couldn't hear what i was saying, so I'd turn the channel. Copeland's personality or style of preaching rubs me the wrong way.

I know there are preachers who have addressed JDS over the years. Another big area is the love of money underlying some of the preaching.

Pentecostal preachers preaching against WOF extremes can also help create a movement within the denomination against these extremes.
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Post Quiet Wyatt
I myself have always maintained a strong stance against WoF doctrine, especially the ‘Born Again Jesus’ blasphemy and the doctrine that says if you just have the right kind of faith, you’ll never be sick or at least will always be healed in this life. Also, the idea that God wants all believers to be wealthy is quite easily refuted by the New Testament. It’s a real tragedy that anyone ever believes it. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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Quiet Wyatt wrote:
I myself have always maintained a strong stance against WoF doctrine, especially the ‘Born Again Jesus’ blasphemy and the doctrine that says if you just have the right kind of faith, you’ll never be sick or at least will always be healed in this life. Also, the idea that God wants all believers to be wealthy is quite easily refuted by the New Testament. It’s a real tragedy that anyone ever believes it.


I think the reason some of these teachings continue to exist is the fact that some people never read through the Bible, or even the whole New Testament, and rely on certain teachers to tell them what the truth is. They may spend their devotional time watching or listening to sermons. I do not see how someone could read through the Gospels and think the it is okay to love money unless they have some kind of spiritual blindness that prevents them from perceiving the words.
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Quiet Wyatt wrote:
I myself have always maintained a strong stance against WoF doctrine, especially the ‘Born Again Jesus’ blasphemy and the doctrine that says if you just have the right kind of faith, you’ll never be sick or at least will always be healed in this life. Also, the idea that God wants all believers to be wealthy is quite easily refuted by the New Testament. It’s a real tragedy that anyone ever believes it.


I think the reason some of these teachings continue to exist is the fact that some people never read through the Bible, or even the whole New Testament, and rely on certain teachers to tell them what the truth is. They may spend their devotional time watching or listening to sermons. I do not see how someone could read through the Gospels and think the it is okay to love money unless they have some kind of spiritual blindness that prevents them from perceiving the words.
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Post Cojak
I have a hard time putting thoughts into words. I appreciate the OP, then all your comments my mind says amen to, I do appreciate you guys who can put into words how I feel.
Thanks. This is good.
I remember growing up hearing that a Catholic priest said, "Give us a child until he is 8 and he will always be a Catholic.

This is true about a lot of beliefs..... The same as the OP is saying, methinks.
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Post Da Sheik
One of the oldest lies in the book is found in Genesis 3:5 .....”you will be like God”. The one that told that lie just keeps repackaging and rephrasing it for modern-day audiences. If we knew what actually goes on behind the scenes of these huge WOF ministries we would weep over it. Jim and Tammy Faye are a cautionary tale that many refuse to learn from. Acts Enthusiast
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Post Cojak
Da Sheik wrote:
One of the oldest lies in the book is found in Genesis 3:5 .....”you will be like God”. The one that told that lie just keeps repackaging and rephrasing it for modern-day audiences. If we knew what actually goes on behind the scenes of these huge WOF ministries we would weep over it. Jim and Tammy Faye are a cautionary tale that many refuse to learn from.

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Post Link
Jim Bakker wrote that he was very busy at PTL. He also preached sermons by adding verses to points in success books. Later, in prison, he read through the Bible a lot and realized how wrote he was about his doctrine during his PTL days. I don't watch his most recent show, though, so I cannot comment how it has changed. I've probably not seen an hour of it.
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1/8/20 1:12 am


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Dave Dorsey wrote:

The reformed folks are filling a void for people who recognize that WoF/Bethel/etc. are wildly unbiblical and are hungry for biblical truth. It would be great if the COG/AG worked to fill that void with an orthodox Pentecostal voice as well.


I don't think of Bethel, Redding as WOF per se, though they would have some beliefs in common. NonCharismatics sometimes call them WOF.

Anyway, I fellowship in a home meeting with a couple who went to church there, and I've known churches to affiliate with Bethel. It seems to be a loose affiliation. I don't know if there is much in the way of criteria for joining.

Regarding the couple we fellowship with, the husband and I discussed prophesying. I was generally opposed to the idea of putting restrictions on prophesying that it all has to be happy and make you feel good. I think the general thrust of instructions on prophesying is prophesying where the congregation witnesses and others can give input, though I did not go into all those details. I am not opposed to 'personal prophecies' outside of that context. I do think we should censure people who are making carnal accusations or proclamations of doom that hurt people. But I consider the book of Revelation to be edifying, so prophecies about coming calamities, etc. should not be forbidden since the Spirit can say what He wants. There are examples of words of correction in the Bible also.

What the two of us discussed in the kitchen was that and my concern over the dangers of 'pushing' people to prophesy and loosely calling utterances of enouragement prophesying. I think we sort of came closer to agreement by the end of our discussion.

His wife spoke with my wife, and seemed to think prophecies about judgment of nations were not for this time. Something along the lines of God delaying judgment to the end. I had a conversation many years ago with a Bethel student (of their miracle school or whatever it was) who used the 'reconciling all things unto Himself' passage in II Corinthians to try to argue that God was not judging the nations now. He did not believe God ever caused sicknesses and seemed to be questioning whether the angel who struck Herod was in the wrong or whether Paul with Elymas or Peter with Ananias and Saphira were in the wrong or if the scriptures were inaccurate. But I do not know if he reflected Bethel views. He'd been going to a seminar before that.


I get the gist from some statements form Bethel that they may teach that the gospel is not the gospel without miracles-- as opposed to the Pentecostal understanding of miracles accompanying the gospel.

I think we evangelicals can overstate how the Great Commission applies to all. I gather Bethel applies the 'Heal the sick raise the dead....' passage to all believers. But I have not heard about them say we are not allowed to carry purses or wallets with money in them or that we all have to live off of hospitality.

My personal observations with 'prophetic movement' and 'signs and wonders' movement churches is that many of them seem to have a rather long rope connecting them to scripture rather than having a short chain connecting them to the scriptures like some other churches. But these churches can be very diverse in their beliefs and practices, too, and they aren't as homogeneous as a Pentecostal denomination.

My question is, what specific issues do you have with Bethel doctrine?
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1/8/20 10:54 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
Link wrote:
My question is, what specific issues do you have with Bethel doctrine?

You mentioned one -- "I get the gist from some statements form Bethel that they may teach that the gospel is not the gospel without miracles-- as opposed to the Pentecostal understanding of miracles accompanying the gospel."

In my opinion, they also teach a borderline heretical view of kenosis and correspondingly teach a borderline heretical view of man as little-G god, etc. I could probably go on at length about individual specific issues, but most if not all would have their root here.

I agree that Bethel is not WOF per se, but the core tenets of WOF theology (declaring reality, manifesting things by faith, kenosis, little-G gods, etc.) are also the core tenets of Bethel's theology.

They are also heavily invested in material and physical (health) prosperity, which are core WOF tenets. You can read their offering prayers here: https://www.bethel.com/offering-readings/

Here is one example:

Quote:
I am powerful
And what I believe changes the world
So today I declare

God is in a good mood
He loves me all the time
Nothing can separate me from His love
Jesus’ blood paid for everything
I will tell nations of what He has done

I am important
How He made me is amazing
I was designed for worship
My mouth establishes praise to silence the enemy
Everywhere I go becomes a perfect-health zone
And with God

Nothing is impossible!
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1/8/20 11:04 am


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[quote="Dave Dorsey"]
Link wrote:

They are also heavily invested in material and physical (health) prosperity, which are core WOF tenets. You can read their offering prayers here: https://www.bethel.com/offering-readings/

Here is one example:

Quote:
I am powerful
And what I believe changes the world
So today I declare

God is in a good mood
He loves me all the time
Nothing can separate me from His love
Jesus’ blood paid for everything
I will tell nations of what He has done

I am important
How He made me is amazing
I was designed for worship
My mouth establishes praise to silence the enemy
Everywhere I go becomes a perfect-health zone
And with God

Nothing is impossible!


Why am I thinking of the voice of Stewart Smalley?

"I'm good enough. I'm smart enough. And doggonit, people like me."
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Post Dave Dorsey
Laughing

Pretty much!
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Post Da Sheik
Job’s “friends” were among the first WOF teachers. Job 22:28 is among the proof texts used to support their doctrine. They fail to take into account that God rejected the counsel of Job’s friends.

In Job 42:7 God Himself said to those “friends” that they were not speaking the truth about Him and His ways.
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1/9/20 9:19 am


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Dave Dorsey wrote:
Laughing

Pretty much!


The thing is, aside from claiming to know God's mood, I don't exactly see a theological problem with the confession. The other concern I would have is confessing yourself as 'important.' To some extent, each of us are, but is that the sort of thing that is helpful to think about ourselves so that we can be effective in God's kingdom? Paul wrote it is no longer I who lives, but but Christ who lives in me.
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1/9/20 10:23 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
Well, you say you don't see anything theologically wrong with it but then mention two core ways of thinking it demonstrates that are out of step with biblical Christianity. I don't think this offering chant is heretical, but I think it conveys strong WOF patterns of thought which is the point I was trying to make. Now 67% friendlier!
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1/9/20 11:24 am


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Post Patrick Harris
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Link wrote:
My question is, what specific issues do you have with Bethel doctrine?

You mentioned one -- "I get the gist from some statements form Bethel that they may teach that the gospel is not the gospel without miracles-- as opposed to the Pentecostal understanding of miracles accompanying the gospel."

In my opinion, they also teach a borderline heretical view of kenosis and correspondingly teach a borderline heretical view of man as little-G god, etc. I could probably go on at length about individual specific issues, but most if not all would have their root here.

I agree that Bethel is not WOF per se, but the core tenets of WOF theology (declaring reality, manifesting things by faith, kenosis, little-G gods, etc.) are also the core tenets of Bethel's theology.

They are also heavily invested in material and physical (health) prosperity, which are core WOF tenets. You can read their offering prayers here: https://www.bethel.com/offering-readings/

Here is one example:

Quote:
I am powerful
And what I believe changes the world
So today I declare

God is in a good mood
He loves me all the time
Nothing can separate me from His love
Jesus’ blood paid for everything
I will tell nations of what He has done

I am important
How He made me is amazing
I was designed for worship
My mouth establishes praise to silence the enemy
Everywhere I go becomes a perfect-health zone
And with God

Nothing is impossible!


I clicked on the Offering prayer and it all makes sense. Now I know where a church I visit in NC gets their prayer before they take the offering.
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1/9/20 6:16 pm


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