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Alcohol and Slavery
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Post Alcohol and Slavery Cojak
Okay, forget the alcohol.

There is already a heated discussion on the Civil War and Slavery. I don't think it went the way Aaron meant. LOL It takes only a quick search to see many versions interpret certain words: Slave and servant interchangeably.

I am not a scholar of scripture i.e. early Greek and Hebrew.

But we neophytes know slavery and servants are in scripture. Also buying and selling Hebrews in the OT. Most of us think it was the times and attitudes that this came about. Over the years MOST of the known world decries slavery.

WE all have opinions, no need to argue with anyone's position.

My question is:
I would just like to know what my brothers and sisters personal opinions are as to when and why things changed over the years according to scripture.
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Last edited by Cojak on 11/12/19 8:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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11/11/19 12:24 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
I don't have it in me to participate in another one of these, so I'll offer this and leave it at that -- American chattel slavery was very different then biblical slavery and there are a lot of scholarly resources that can be consulted as a reference on that point.

Aside from that one point of clarification, this is a great question. Hopefully it will result in some good discussion for you.
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11/11/19 12:28 pm


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Post Alcohol and Slavery Mat
After the discussion on slavery I thought you were going to say you needed a drink. Very Happy Shocked Surprised

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11/11/19 12:51 pm


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Post Link
I do not believe the Bible teaches that owning slaves was a sin or that Isaac or Philemon were sinners for owning slaves. I know this is not a popular position.
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11/11/19 3:33 pm


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Post Re: Alcohol and Slavery Cojak
Mat wrote:
After the discussion on slavery I thought you were going to say you needed a drink. Very Happy Shocked Surprised

Mat
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Good one Mat! Love you dude!
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11/11/19 4:41 pm


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Post Cojak
Link wrote:
I do not believe the Bible teaches that owning slaves was a sin or that Isaac or Philemon were sinners for owning slaves. I know this is not a popular position.


Thanks Link. That is sorta what I would want to hear, your opinion. I understand also thate is the bonded and not. I am not sure how that worked.

I know that many people immigrated to several countries and worked for someone until they paid the cost of getting to the new country. I believe tht was a bond servant, not sure....
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11/11/19 4:45 pm


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Post Cojak
Terrible internet tonight, that was a duplicate.
But since I hate to waste paper.

To DD: I readily agree that Biblical slaves were different than the 'new world' slavery. There were strict rules for Hebrews owing and treating slaves in Bible times. I also believe there were slaves in this country that were treated as family and freed later, but that was a minor number.

I was just reading the other thread and wanted simple opinions of Bible slavery if that was possible Smile ..... It seemed to be much less in the New Testament.
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11/11/19 4:45 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
Link wrote:
I do not believe the Bible teaches that owning slaves was a sin or that Isaac or Philemon were sinners for owning slaves. I know this is not a popular position.

So long as biblical slavery is properly understood, I'm not sure this is actually that unpopular a position. Or unpopular, maybe, but not regarded as incorrect in orthodox circles.

It's when this view of biblical slavery and the permissibility thereof is projected onto a very cruel and different type of slavery that we start to have problems (and I'm not saying that you're doing that; in fact, I'm sure you're not).

Under the Law, antebellum slaveowners would have been put to death (Exodus 21:16, go to the ESV for the most precise translation). I am not advocating for that position, but those who would go to the Bible for support of American chattel slavery will not find themselves on solid ground.
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11/11/19 5:54 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Link wrote:
I do not believe the Bible teaches that owning slaves was a sin or that Isaac or Philemon were sinners for owning slaves. I know this is not a popular position.

So long as biblical slavery is properly understood, I'm not sure this is actually that unpopular a position. Or unpopular, maybe, but not regarded as incorrect in orthodox circles.

It's when this view of biblical slavery and the permissibility thereof is projected onto a very cruel and different type of slavery that we start to have problems (and I'm not saying that you're doing that; in fact, I'm sure you're not).

Under the Law, antebellum slaveowners would have been put to death (Exodus 21:16, go to the ESV for the most precise translation). I am not advocating for that position, but those who would go to the Bible for support of American chattel slavery will not find themselves on solid ground.


It is quite possible that some Christian Roman slaveowners might have been put to death under the Law as well. But the Law was not for Gentiles. And I do not think a slave born in 1855 to another slave falls under the category of Exodus 21:16. Now perhaps the Africans who stole and sold his Great-great-great-great Grandpa would be condemned by Exodus 21:16.
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11/11/19 7:47 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
Paul uses the same terminology in 1 Timothy 1:10. He says that enslavers are lawless and disobedient and that their practice is contrary to sound doctrine.

He also said in Romans 13 that love was the fulfillment of the Law, and enslaving people is not an act of love toward them.

I never thought I'd be spending so much time arguing to a group of Christians that people who practiced enslavement as described by Exodus 21:16 and 1 Timothy 1:10 were committing sin.
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11/11/19 9:10 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Paul uses the same terminology in 1 Timothy 1:10. He says that enslavers are lawless and disobedient and that their practice is contrary to sound doctrine.

He also said in Romans 13 that love was the fulfillment of the Law, and enslaving people is not an act of love toward them.

I never thought I'd be spending so much time arguing to a group of Christians that people who practiced enslavement as described by Exodus 21:16 and 1 Timothy 1:10 were committing sin.


Not everyone agrees with your exegesis of these verses. Can you cite Paul commanding Roman believers to free their slaves? Why is it not in Acts 15? Of course, instead of answering, you will take my questions as a sanction on my part of slavery.
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11/11/19 9:41 pm


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Post Every one has an opinion Cojak
Thanks for the comments. I realize we will not agree completely. I , like many folk have wondered about slavery in Bible times. I was honestly just wanting to know your opinions. We all know from reading the forum there are differences.

No one here is going to convince me that Chocolate is better than Butter pecan Ice cream. I don;t mind you liking chocolate, just wanted to know why, if you could put it into words. without telling me I am stupid.LOL

Now I have no doubt there were slave owners from the very beginning who were over bearing, even cruel. But if I read it right (big if) the Hebrews (God's people) had rules they had to follow or there were consequences. My question was mainly concerning scriptural attention to slavery.

Thanks again...


Smile
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11/11/19 11:43 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Paul uses the same terminology in 1 Timothy 1:10. He says that enslavers are lawless and disobedient and that their practice is contrary to sound doctrine.

He also said in Romans 13 that love was the fulfillment of the Law, and enslaving people is not an act of love toward them.

I never thought I'd be spending so much time arguing to a group of Christians that people who practiced enslavement as described by Exodus 21:16 and 1 Timothy 1:10 were committing sin.


Sorry Dave. Your parsing of Biblical slavery being different from Southern US slavery just doesn't cut it.

Owning another person is sick and depraved - 170 years ago and 2000 years ago and 4500 years ago. And if you think people that own people were much nobler in previous times - you are not a very good judge of people.
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11/12/19 8:09 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
I'm not going to argue with someone who has no clue what he's talking about. There are voluminous scholarly resources available on the difference between biblical slavery and American slavery if you care to educate yourself about it.

Here's an introductory article you can use to get started: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/why-wrong-say-bible-pro-slavery/
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11/12/19 8:13 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
I also never said that ancient slaveowners were noble people, or that slaveowning in any time was good. And you know that, but you have never been one to let facts get in the way of your stupid bad faith jabs. Now 67% friendlier!
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11/12/19 8:21 am


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Post diakoneo
Let's face it, the idea of owning another human being is extremely foreign to all of us but so is the idea of living day to day and wondering if we will be able to eat tomorrow. Food, clothing and shelter once met gives us the ability to concentrate on education, bettering ourselves and society, taking care of our fellow man and environment and recreation and retirement and etc. etc.! Trying to project our hierarchy on our fathers generation will lead to much self-loathing! The liberals love to do that because they are lacking in grace and see everything from the humanist point of view. Christians are supposed to be people of grace, but sometimes we don't act like it!

Let's face it: our forefathers sinned but we cannot pay the penalty for their sin! We don't know the depth of their sin. Only one does know and only one can know and He died for their sin and ours too. His grace is sufficient for their sin and ours and with all our hierarchy of needs met, who knows perhaps this generation will receive a more severe judgment than those wicked slave owners. Why? Because we had wealth and health and refused to tell those who did not about Jesus!

Just my thoughts...
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11/12/19 8:30 am


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Post Slavery was an established norm of the society roughridercog
The Gospel worked within the society and changed it. It sometimes takes time. The same Gospel works within our societal norms, the tough part today is we are all too often allowing the societal norms to change or pervert the Gospel.

Just a chucking in my two cents worth.
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11/12/19 8:42 am


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Post Re: Slavery was an established norm of the society Dave Dorsey
roughridercog wrote:
The Gospel worked within the society and changed it. It sometimes takes time. The same Gospel works within our societal norms, the tough part today is we are all too often allowing the societal norms to change or pervert the Gospel.

Good stuff, rough. I have thought often of your concept of "relative theology" as I have engaged with posters here who take such extreme issue with acknowledging that their ancestors who owned slaves sinned in doing so (or, what started all of this, my statement that my ancestors who owned slaves sinned in doing so).


diakoneo... "Let's face it: our forefathers sinned but we cannot pay the penalty for their sin!"

The first half of this sentence is all I am wanting to establish. That this simple statement has been met with such forceful disagreement here continues to blow my mind. Perhaps posters are afraid to affirm this obvious and basic truth because they are afraid it will lead to them being asked to somehow atone for that sin, but as you point out that is not something anyone alive today (except Christ) can do.
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11/12/19 8:46 am


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Post UncleJD
For the love of Bonnie, can someone please correct the spelling on the initial topic? Golf Cart Mafia Capo
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11/12/19 11:05 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
UncleJD wrote:
For the love of Bonnie, can someone please correct the spelling on the initial topic?

It reminds me of my Uncle Hal... Alcohal, we called him...
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11/12/19 11:50 am


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