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The Civil War was not about slavery, but was about...
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Post Dave Dorsey
You can't affirm something as wrong and not also affirm its practitioners as wrong. It's clear your view of slavery as "wrong" has asterisks attached. Now 67% friendlier!
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11/11/19 7:45 am


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Post Resident Skeptic
Dave Dorsey wrote:
You can't affirm something as wrong and not also affirm its practitioners as wrong. It's clear your view of slavery as "wrong" has asterisks attached.


Not in the slightest. I simply cannot relate to your need to cleanse yourself by renouncing your slave owning ancestors as "wicked." This is really a mental hang-up with you. I could not disagree more with your premise. If you truly believe in your heart they were wicked, fine. But why try to force this view onto others, and demand they prove their sincerity by blanket labeling all ante-bellum slave owners as wicked? Maybe you are younger than I thought. This seems like the attitude an immature millennial would have.
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11/11/19 9:21 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
Yeah, labeling someone who imprisons people against their will, forces them to work, and tortures them if they refuse or attempt to escape as wicked is a pretty snowflake millennial thing to do.

Maybe when I grow up I'll be able to see the complicated morality of lifelong unjust imprisonment and forced labor like you do.
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11/11/19 10:35 am


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Post Resident Skeptic
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Yeah, labeling someone who imprisons people against their will, forces them to work, and tortures them if they refuse or attempt to escape as wicked is a pretty snowflake millennial thing to do.

Maybe when I grow up I'll be able to see the complicated morality of lifelong unjust imprisonment and forced labor like you do.


Again, your simplistic view of a very complex time demonstrates your shallow intellect.
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11/11/19 11:44 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
Pictured: A very complex time that only someone with a shallow intellect could condemn





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11/11/19 12:16 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Pictured: A very complex time that only someone with a shallow intellect could condemn







And this proves what? Can you offer evidence on the percentage of slaves who suffered this kind of treatment? Slavery is wrong under the best of conditions. But none of this disproves my premise that the complexities of the times make it impossible, in my opinion, to label all antebellum age slave owners as "wicked".
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11/11/19 12:53 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Resident Skeptic wrote:
They were not wicked. Being slave owners does not define them as people. We are the only society in the free world suffering this mass delusion and self-loathing.

It's truly tragic that there are still people today with this view of chattel slavery. I wish I could say it's unbelievable but I've seen enough of it to know it's not.

May God grant you mercy and grace to repent of this.


Sorry Dave.

There were many that owned slaves that thought they were being very Christian about it.

Sure, there were sinners that tortured their slaves - but many Christians thought they were humane in their treatment of their slaves - even allowing some to earn their freedom.

Thinking that Israelite slaves in Egypt and slaves in Jesus time were treated any differently than in the U. S. South - is pretty lame. There were good slave owners (gasp) and horrible slave owners and many in-between. And they were given the right to choose how they would treat their "property".

They were a piece of property.

And it is happening all around us today...usually as sex slaves.

It's sick to think of another person as a piece of property. I agree. I am happy to say that it doesn't appear that my family owned slaves - yet there were many that fought, and some died, for the North and the South.

Yet today: folks all around you - in your churches - think the same way.

There are humans aborted by Christians regularly - cheered on by Democrat politicians - and they aren't even considered property - they are just tissue - to be disposed of much like any other waste.

And you Dave are not doing enough to end it.

We are much worse than the 1850s Southern Christians.

Quit judging folks from 170 years ago so harshly. The finger simply points back at yourself. For shame allowing any abortions in your country.
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11/11/19 12:57 pm


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Post UncleJD
Nature Boy Florida wrote:

We are much worse than the 1850s Southern Christians.

Quit judging folks from 170 years ago so harshly. The finger simply points back at yourself. For shame allowing any abortions in your country.


This is why I consider myself an abolitionist and NOT "pro-life" (I am pro-life, but not as it pertains to that movement which has done very little and been hijacked by politicians such as the Bushes to gain votes while all the while supporting abortion). Now what that means in practice, I'll admit, I'm not fully up to that yet, but I think that's where this has to go. I at least don't get excited when pols talk about lame half-measures like "defunding planned parenthood". I equate that to slaves standing on an auction block and me saying "well brothers, at least I didn't spend my money on it, hope it all works out for you"
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11/11/19 6:29 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
UncleJD wrote:
This is why I consider myself an abolitionist and NOT "pro-life" (I am pro-life, but not as it pertains to that movement which has done very little and been hijacked by politicians such as the Bushes to gain votes while all the while supporting abortion). Now what that means in practice, I'll admit, I'm not fully up to that yet, but I think that's where this has to go. I at least don't get excited when pols talk about lame half-measures like "defunding planned parenthood". I equate that to slaves standing on an auction block and me saying "well brothers, at least I didn't spend my money on it, hope it all works out for you"

I didn't reply to NBF's post because it was a senseless non-sequitur -- one can affirm the view that participation in American chattel slavery was wicked AND can be opposed to human trafficking, sexual slavery and abortion today -- but BRAVO to this post.

I hadn't intended to return to this dumpster fire of a thread, but I had to give a +1 to this. Abolitionism is the perfect framework/perspective to have concerning abortion. I'm not 100% sure what that means in practice either, but I know it is the right place to start. Great post.
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11/11/19 7:00 pm


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Post Cojak
Dave Dorsey wrote:
... Abolitionism is the perfect framework/perspective to have concerning abortion. I'm not 100% sure what that means in practice either, but I know it is the right place to start. Great post.

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11/11/19 11:49 pm


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Post The fruit of slavery Mat
Our nation still suffers from the bitter fruit of slavery. While I'm sure there were slave owners who considered themselves just in their treatment of their property (people), the institution was dehumanizing. Even if only 1 out of 10 white southerners owned slaves, it created a class structure which put the wealthy plantation owners permanently at the top, followed by poor whites and then slaves. It gave them an unfair advantage over the vast majority of the population, and through the state laws the slave owners position at the top was "enshrined."

The Civil War's ocean of blood came from the veins of non-slave owners, north and south. After the war, during reconstruction, the former slave owners keep many people (white and black) in a permanent state of economic bondage through the share-cropper system, which was a form of financial bondage. Reconstruction led to Jim Crow laws and continued the bitterness of slavery, with the false promise of equality on a national level and restricted rights based on color on a state level.

The Church of God has struggled with race in its history. While some like to point to the early influences of A. J. Tomlinson's views and actions on race, it is clear that in the process of removing him, the COG became drawn to the separation of races as found in southern society of the time. Whether its the separate black work with a white GO, or the integration of Lee (the Lee 100 video covers this well), for some there is a bad taste from the bitter fruit.

The Old South was never all plantations and polite white society for the vast majority of whites and all slaves (other than slaving away in the "master's" plantation fields from sun-up to sun-down, with no other recourse and no way out that was legal and equal). The nation, and the COG Movement, have come too far and over-come to much to have false memories of the bitter fruit tasting good. We don't want to return to or glorify a social structure that profited from keeping people poor, uneducated and unequal.

Mat

PS I don't know if you have ever read AJT's "The Last Great Conflict" (1914?), but it was interesting to me that in one of the chapters he pointed to two positive examples of being focused on your goal - Lincoln and Grant. Interesting for a book that was published in the south for a southern based denomination.
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11/12/19 7:36 am


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Post Before Lincoln Took Office... Aaron Scott
William Seward, who would become his Secretary of State, advised southern states that Lincoln would not oppose leaving slavery intact in the slave states. However, he was opposed to the spread of slavery. The South rejected the peaceful overture, opting for secession and, eventually, war.

Certainly, as Resident Skeptic has pointed out, part of the calculus was that if a new territories had enough people AND slaves (per the 3/5't Compromise), it could win statehood, electing slavery-leaning men to Congress. However, there was also the notion that new lands equaled more acreage. And whether it was planted in cotton or made into cattle ranches, slavery would have been the preferred labor.

Since the beginning of our country, we have had only a single main argument about government: How big/powerful should it be? The South felt the gov't was too big if it was curtailing their right to take their slaves anywhere. And the North felt it was too small if the gov't couldn't tell them to not do that.

In those days, little was thought impossible--especially if you have pretty much infinite labor resources. So the southwest would have been useful, as far as the South was concerned, because they would have "found a way" to irrigate, cultivate, etc.

So, YES, it was was the SPREAD of slavery--but, indeed, NOT just for more lands, but because the South thought they could acquire greater power. And with that greater power, not only could they then have access to the much richer lands to the north of the southern border of Arkansas, but get their way in other areas too.
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11/12/19 1:04 pm


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Post UncleJD
The way I see it is:
1. There was no Civil War
2. The war between the states was about States Rights (for the average southern soldier)
3. The same war was about Slavery for the average norther soldier (remember what books like Uncle Tom's Cabin did to capture the heart of the average person in the north)
4. The same war was about NEITHER slavery nor state's rights at the government level of either side. It was about money and power.
5. I've always lamented the fact that Americans were willing to invade other American's homes, even though there was much at stake, but I understand the average northerner's heart was for the slave, and the average defender's heart was for his home.
6. I'm glad its over, and I'm glad slavery ended.

lastly, I appreciate Dave's insight in scripture, I have more to research, but the distinction in bond-servant and slave is something I haven't spent enough time considering. But again, I'm glad it ended, I hate that it took so much blood, but I've heard before and I believe Lincoln said as much, that we had to pay in blood (both sides), the wages of the sin of slavery, and the scripture Dave shared seems to attest to it.
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11/12/19 1:30 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
Historical facts are one thing.

Another question: Why did God allow the Civil War to take place - among two sides of one group of people that ostensibly came from other lands to have freedom to worship Jesus?

Is there a point where God says enough is enough?
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11/12/19 1:31 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
UncleJD wrote:
The way I see it is:
1. There was no Civil War
2. The war between the states was about States Rights (for the average southern soldier)
3. The same war was about Slavery for the average norther soldier (remember what books like Uncle Tom's Cabin did to capture the heart of the average person in the north)
4. The same war was about NEITHER slavery nor state's rights at the government level of either side. It was about money and power.
5. I've always lamented the fact that Americans were willing to invade other American's homes, even though there was much at stake, but I understand the average northerner's heart was for the slave, and the average defender's heart was for his home.
6. I'm glad its over, and I'm glad slavery ended.

lastly, I appreciate Dave's insight in scripture, I have more to research, but the distinction in bond-servant and slave is something I haven't spent enough time considering. But again, I'm glad it ended, I hate that it took so much blood, but I've heard before and I believe Lincoln said as much, that we had to pay in blood (both sides), the wages of the sin of slavery, and the scripture Dave shared seems to attest to it.

Thank you UncleJD. I agree with all of your numbered observations here as well. I would reject the view that the war was about virtuously ending slavery for the north, and would agree 100% with what you have expressed in #4. I also agree with point #5, that southerners were not fighting FOR slavery but for their homes. I personally think the two overlapped in a sinful way to which most southerners were blind, but this is nevertheless an important point.

Finally, I agree fully with point #6. May neither ever happen again.

Thank you for your thoughtful and charitable post.
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11/12/19 1:59 pm


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Post UncleJD
Dave, as for the average Northern soldier, I'm going by accounts I've read in several books over the years that were along these lines, they joined up because they had heard about the "plight of the negro slave", most likely through books or pamphlets along with the prevailing sermons of the day in the churches of the North, and felt like they were there to help them. Maybe that was secondary to "preserving the Union", but it seems like the "preserve the Union" sentiment was most prevalent among the officers AFAIK. Either way, I know slavery was a secondary issue in Lincoln's mind and he admitted as such, but by the end of the war, it did become a primary factor. I used to claim otherwise, but I'm convinced that for a significant part of society in the North, slavery WAS the main reason for the war. It certainly is the only worthwhile cause that I can see. Forced submission to central government seems very far from the Founders' vision to me, and far from being a cause to kill Americans over. The end of slavery is at least noble, right and just and my sole consolation when I read of the horrors of the most devastating war in our history.

Last edited by UncleJD on 11/12/19 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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11/12/19 4:26 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
Sorry, I meant to be referring to the northern government with my comment about rejecting the view of virtuously ending slavery. I'm not as familiar with this part of the topic as you, but in regard to the average soldier that's my understanding as well.

Edit: I also agree with you that it's fair to say it became a primary focus for the north as the war waged on, and there's something to be said for that for sure.
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11/12/19 4:32 pm


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Post UncleJD
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Sorry, I meant to be referring to the northern government with my comment about rejecting the view of virtuously ending slavery. I'm not as familiar with this part of the topic as you, but in regard to the average soldier that's my understanding as well.


If you've never read The Killer Angels, I HIGHLY recommend it. While dramatized and therefore somewhat fictional, it is based on interviews and memoirs of the men and is an excellent view into the minds of the key officers in the Battle of Gettysburg.
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11/12/19 4:35 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
I have not, and I appreciate the recommendation! I will add it to my list. Now 67% friendlier!
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11/12/19 4:44 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
Dave Dorsey wrote:
I have not, and I appreciate the recommendation! I will add it to my list.


I'm still waiting for some emperical data proving that the beatings depictd in the photos you posted were typical.
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11/14/19 10:58 am


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