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The Civil War was not about slavery, but was about...
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Post Dave Dorsey
Dude, you spend your time on this forum excusing and explaining the actions of people who held families against their will, forced them to work, sometimes raped them, and tortured them if they tried to escape.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, anyone on this forum can read this thread or others in which you've posted and see that. That's who you are.

I don't think anyone's getting worried about your opinion of them.
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11/10/19 12:49 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
It'd be real easy to prove me wrong, by the way. Just condemn chattel slavery and its purveyors. Say it's objectively morally wicked to hold people against their will, force them to work, and torture them if they try to escape. Say anyone who did that acted wickedly and should have their actions condemned regardless of the time in which they lived. Say that while such men are never beyond the reach of God's grace, there are no extenuating circumstances of context that could ever excuse such evil.

Real simple. Very basic statements that even people who are sensitive to the South's view of the war as northern aggression should easily be able to affirm.

But you can't do that, can you?
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11/10/19 12:56 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Dude, you spend your time on this forum excusing and explaining the actions of people who held families against their will, forced them to work, sometimes raped them, and tortured them if they tried to escape.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, anyone on this forum can read this thread or others in which you've posted and see that. That's who you are.

I don't think anyone's getting worried about your opinion of them.


Please quote me where I ever excused anything. I'll wait.
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11/10/19 2:27 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
Dave Dorsey wrote:
It'd be real easy to prove me wrong, by the way. Just condemn chattel slavery and its purveyors. Say it's objectively morally wicked to hold people against their will, force them to work, and torture them if they try to escape. Say anyone who did that acted wickedly and should have their actions condemned regardless of the time in which they lived. Say that while such men are never beyond the reach of God's grace, there are no extenuating circumstances of context that could ever excuse such evil.

Real simple. Very basic statements that even people who are sensitive to the South's view of the war as northern aggression should easily be able to affirm.

But you can't do that, can you?


This is what liberals like you do best. You try to put people on the defensive who have done nothing wrong. You and I have had this conversation before. In one conversation you commended me for acknowledging that slavery was wrong, which to me had never been in question. Again, you are a fundamentally dishonest person, a product of brainwashing.
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11/10/19 2:31 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
Resident Skeptic wrote:
Again, you are a fundamentally dishonest person, a product of brainwashing.

Sure, so can you to disprove my "dishonest" statements by affirming some very basic and obvious statements of truth about chattel slavery and the people who willingly practiced it?

Not just that slavery was wrong -- but that it was evil -- and that the people who willingly practiced it participated in evil, even if they did not fully understand or intend the evil of their actions?

If you can't affirm this, then you are excusing the practice of slavery even if you acknowledge that slavery itself was wrong. You cannot affirm something as sin and then say its practitioners are not sinners. I would love to be shown that my understanding of your posts is incorrect.
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11/10/19 2:34 pm


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Post Re: Reformation Outcomes Patrick Harris
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Mat wrote:
Who here today would not consider a nation (and there are some) which still practices slavery a civilized people?

Excellent point. Really drives home how ludicrous it is to try to whitewash American slavery as some kind of twisted social good.

People like RS will quickly decry these nations as full of savages still today, while at the same time trying to excuse American slaveowners on the basis that it was African nations who originally captured and sold people into slavery -- never at any point realizing how deeply they are contradicting themselves.

Blacks who participate in slavery are cruel savages. Whites who participate are perhaps misguided, but ultimately trying to work social good on behalf of their slaves. Hmm. I wonder what could explain this difference in perspective?

I’m southern through and through as were my ancestors who fought in the Civil War.
So, just so I’m clear on what you are saying and believe. I should repent if I don’t renounce what my ancestors did, as in fighting for the south or owning slaves.
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11/10/19 3:59 pm


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Post Re: Reformation Outcomes Dave Dorsey
Patrick Harris wrote:
I’m southern through and through as were my ancestors who fought in the Civil War.
So, just so I’m clear on what you are saying and believe. I should repent if I don’t renounce what my ancestors did, as in fighting for the south or owning slaves.

I guess I'm not following you. What is a reason why you wouldn't want to renounce the practice of owning slaves?

My ancestors were southern as well, though they were Texan and to my knowledge didn't own slaves. If they did, it seems like it would be pretty simple to unequivocally say that practice was wrong and sinful. Would they have been a product of their time? Sure, but what contextualization exactly can excuse the practice of owning humans as property, forcing them to work, and torturing them if they refuse or try to escape?

As to whether you should repent if you can't renounce slave-owning (and tbh Patrick, I'm really surprised you asked the question which is why I'm having trouble understanding where you're going here), I guess that's a question between you and God. I'm just not sure why you wouldn't be able to renounce slaveowning, even if you acknowledge (as I do) that slaveowners were men who were not at all beyond the reach of God's mercy and forgiveness.

I won't address fighting in the Civil War because I think that's a much more complicated issue. My polemic against RS has involved his inability to acknowledge the evil of participation in chattel slavery and I'd like to keep the conversation focused on that point.
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11/10/19 4:22 pm


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Post Re: Reformation Outcome Patrick Harris
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Patrick Harris wrote:
I’m southern through and through as were my ancestors who fought in the Civil War.
So, just so I’m clear on what you are saying and believe. I should repent if I don’t renounce what my ancestors did, as in fighting for the south or owning slaves.

I guess I'm not following you. What is a reason why you wouldn't want to renounce the practice of owning slaves?

My ancestors were southern as well, though they were Texan and to my knowledge didn't own slaves. If they did, it seems like it would be pretty simple to unequivocally say that practice was wrong and sinful. Would they have been a product of their time? Sure, but what contextualization exactly can excuse the practice of owning humans as property, forcing them to work, and torturing them if they refuse or try to escape?

As to whether you should repent if you can't renounce slave-owning (and tbh Patrick, I'm really surprised you asked the question which is why I'm having trouble understanding where you're going here), I guess that's a question between you and God. I'm just not sure why you wouldn't be able to renounce slaveowning, even if you acknowledge (as I do) that slaveowners were men who were not at all beyond the reach of God's mercy and forgiveness.

I won't address fighting in the Civil War because I think that's a much more complicated issue. My polemic against RS has involved his inability to acknowledge the evil of participation in chattel slavery and I'd like to keep the conversation focused on that point.



Quote:
Did they believe they were fighting to preserve slavery? I am sure they did not. Was their fighting inseparable from the preservation of slavery? It absolutely was.

They were wicked men. Did they intend to be? I am sure they did not. But were they? Yes, without question and indefensibly so.


This is the statement that is causing me the issue. You are calling them wicked for fighting in the defense of the south, despite the fact that they may not have owned slaves or felt they were defending that institution.
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11/10/19 4:42 pm


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Post Re: Reformation Outcome Dave Dorsey
Patrick Harris wrote:
This is the statement that is causing me the issue. You are calling them wicked for fighting in the defense of the south, despite the fact that they may not have owned slaves or felt they were defending that institution.

Got it. Thanks for clarifying. In my personal opinion this is a really gray area, and it gets to the discussion about the causes of the war. My personal opinion is that the two are not separable, however I concede that there could be considerable and fair disagreement on this point and I would in no way condemn someone holding a different view.

The discussion of repentance emerged after that, based on other posts RS made where it seemed clear (to me, at any rate) that he did not particularly view the practice of slaveowning as anything someone should want to condemn (and seemed to be suggesting one would have to be riddled with white guilt or brainwashed to think that participation in American chattel slavery was something that all decent people should be able to condemn).
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11/10/19 4:47 pm


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Post Re: Reformation Outcome Patrick Harris
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Patrick Harris wrote:
This is the statement that is causing me the issue. You are calling them wicked for fighting in the defense of the south, despite the fact that they may not have owned slaves or felt they were defending that institution.

Got it. Thanks for clarifying. In my personal opinion this is a really gray area, and it gets to the discussion about the causes of the war. My personal opinion is that the two are not separable, however I concede that there could be considerable and fair disagreement on this point and I would in no way condemn someone holding a different view.

The discussion of repentance emerged after that, based on other posts RS made where it seemed clear (to me, at any rate) that he did not particularly view the practice of slaveowning as anything someone should want to condemn (and seemed to be suggesting one would have to be riddled with white guilt or brainwashed to think that participation in American chattel slavery was something that all decent people should be able to condemn).


Thank you.
The reason I’m a little sensitive about this is that some today think I should personally repent and be ashamed of my ancestors for pretty much everything they did.
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11/10/19 4:59 pm


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Post Re: Reformation Outcome Dave Dorsey
Patrick Harris wrote:
Thank you.
The reason I’m a little sensitive about this is that some today think I should personally repent and be ashamed of my ancestors for pretty much everything they did.

I understand that sensitivity, and I think it's very reasonable to take serious issue with that claim.

For one, none of us can be asked to repent for the actions of someone else. We are also not responsible to participate in struggle sessions where we denounce them and everything they did, even if we are related to them.

I personally believe that most everyone at any time should be able to recognize and acknowledge that keeping another human being against their will and forcing that person to work is wrong. At many times throughout history, the context of the era has blinded peoples' hearts to the reality of that sin, but that doesn't change the fact that it was sin. I do think we should all be able to look back and acknowledge that owning slaves was an objectively evil act (and I imagine you agree).

With that said, and without at all minimizing or excusing the gravity of that sin, we are all purveyors of evil to varying degrees and we are all in need of a savior. I will not be at all surprised to find southern slaveowners among the saints in Heaven whom God has redeemed.
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11/10/19 5:09 pm


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Post Re: Reformation Outcome Carolyn Smith
Patrick Harris wrote:
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Patrick Harris wrote:
This is the statement that is causing me the issue. You are calling them wicked for fighting in the defense of the south, despite the fact that they may not have owned slaves or felt they were defending that institution.

Got it. Thanks for clarifying. In my personal opinion this is a really gray area, and it gets to the discussion about the causes of the war. My personal opinion is that the two are not separable, however I concede that there could be considerable and fair disagreement on this point and I would in no way condemn someone holding a different view.

The discussion of repentance emerged after that, based on other posts RS made where it seemed clear (to me, at any rate) that he did not particularly view the practice of slaveowning as anything someone should want to condemn (and seemed to be suggesting one would have to be riddled with white guilt or brainwashed to think that participation in American chattel slavery was something that all decent people should be able to condemn).


Thank you.
The reason I’m a little sensitive about this is that some today think I should personally repent and be ashamed of my ancestors for pretty much everything they did.


Many of you do not believe in generational curses. And yet you think we should renounce something our ancestors did that we had absolutely nothing to do with?

Wow Shocked
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11/10/19 9:30 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Resident Skeptic wrote:
Again, you are a fundamentally dishonest person, a product of brainwashing.

Sure, so can you to disprove my "dishonest" statements by affirming some very basic and obvious statements of truth about chattel slavery and the people who willingly practiced it?

Not just that slavery was wrong -- but that it was evil -- and that the people who willingly practiced it participated in evil, even if they did not fully understand or intend the evil of their actions?

If you can't affirm this, then you are excusing the practice of slavery even if you acknowledge that slavery itself was wrong. You cannot affirm something as sin and then say its practitioners are not sinners. I would love to be shown that my understanding of your posts is incorrect.


You have a short memory. You and I have had this conversation before. In one conversation you commended me for acknowledging that slavery was wrong, which to me had never been in question. This happened about a year ago, or less.
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Post Cojak
Okay, I am confused. Anyone with one ounce of common sense knows slavery is WRONG and was wrong (Humanity wise). For some reason it was accepted in early days here in the south. BUT ain't no way I can change that. I cannot repent nor fix the past I think we all know that. Shucks I can't repent for my grandpa's sins of any kind. I think he did chew tobacco but It sure wasn't slavery. LOL

I never heard of repenting for anyone's sins but mine, but then I ain't that deep in theology! Maybe renouncing is much different than repenting, but it is somewhat the same. Maybe I shouldn't read this thread. Confused Idea

I'm one of those ignorant people who knows (thinks) the basic reason for the UNCIVIL war was slavery. At least that is wht my Great=Grandpa Hilley in Red Hill Georgia thought. and his daddy was in the war. Cool
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Last edited by Cojak on 11/10/19 9:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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11/10/19 9:49 pm


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Post Re: Reformation Outcome Dave Dorsey
Carolyn Smith wrote:
Many of you do not believe in generational curses. And yet you think we should renounce something our ancestors did that we had absolutely nothing to do with?

Wow Shocked

...no?

I think we should all be willing to condemn a grotesque evil from our history, regardless of "relative theology" as roughrider puts it. I'm not suggesting anyone today holds culpability for anything their ancestors did, but why is it such an insane suggestion to say that we should all be willing to condemn the practice of owning human beings regardless of who did it?
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Post Dave Dorsey
Cojak wrote:
Okay, I am confused. Anyone with one ounce of common sense knows slavery is WRONG and was wrong (Humanity wise). For some reason it was accepted in early days here in the south. BUT ain't no way I can change that. I cannot repent nor fix the past I think we all know that. Shucks I can't repent for my grandpa's sins of any kind. I think he did chew tobacco but It sure wasn't slavery. LOL

I never heard of repenting for anyone's sins but mine, but then I ain't that deep in theology! Maybe renouncing is much different than repenting, but it is somewhat the same. Maybe I shouldn't read this thread. Confused Idea

You can say it was wicked (let's use a stronger word than wrong), and that the people who did it were wrong to practice it, which you did.

That is the baseline level of sanity that I'm pleading for in this thread.

And if someone can't do that for whatever reason, then yes, they should repent of being unable to denounce slavery and its practitioners as wrong. That has nothing to do with anyone today repenting for something someone else did in the past.


Last edited by Dave Dorsey on 11/10/19 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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11/10/19 9:50 pm


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Post Cojak
[quote="Dave Dorsey"]...
You can say it was wrong, and that the people who did it were wrong to do it, which you did.

Yep, I thought that was common sense. Confused Confused
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Post Dave Dorsey
Cojak wrote:
Yep, I thought that was common sense. Confused Confused

Yeah, me too.
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Post Dave Dorsey
Resident Skeptic wrote:
You have a short memory. You and I have had this conversation before. In one conversation you commended me for acknowledging that slavery was wrong, which to me had never been in question. This happened about a year ago, or less.

And what of the wickedness of its practitioners?
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11/10/19 9:58 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Resident Skeptic wrote:
You have a short memory. You and I have had this conversation before. In one conversation you commended me for acknowledging that slavery was wrong, which to me had never been in question. This happened about a year ago, or less.

And what of the wickedness of its practitioners?


As I stated previously, my detachment as a historian prevents me from labeling all slave owners as "wicked". Now do one of your liberal rants if you like. I don't care.
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