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John MacArthur
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Post John MacArthur Nature Boy Florida
Glad I got rid of my McArthur leadership books when he ripped the Holy Spirit Strange Fire junk.

I can't trust anything the guy says.
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10/22/19 1:47 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
What brought this up?
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10/22/19 2:05 pm


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Post Re: John MacArthur Resident Skeptic
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
Glad I got rid of my McArthur leadership books when he ripped the Holy Spirit Strange Fire junk.

I can't trust anything the guy says.


I think he misses the mark as well on Strange Fire, but I don't see it as an attack on the Holy Spirit.
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10/22/19 2:17 pm


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Post Link
A woman spoke at the Strange Fire conference.
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10/22/19 3:12 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
Link wrote:
A woman spoke at the Strange Fire conference.


I guess that made it really strange.
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10/22/19 4:35 pm


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Post John MacArthur - A Hater - And where he is wrong MI6
PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING STORY CONCERNING JOHN MACARTHUR AND HIS VIEWS CONCERNING BETH MOORE. I AM PLACING A SCRIPTURE BEFORE AND AFTER THE STORY TO SHOW WHERE JOHN MACARTHUR IS IN OPPOSITION AGAINST GOD AND THE SCRIPTURE - HE
NEVER SPEAKS TO THE 5 FOLD MINISTRY - BUT ATTACKS WOMEN IN GENERAL and women DOING ANYTHING IN THE MINISTRY...

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

////////


Lamenting what he sees as a heretical “plunge” away from biblical order, Pastor John MacArthur, who leads Grace Community Church in California, skewered popular Bible teacher Beth Moore, President Donald Trump’s spiritual adviser Paula White and evangelicals who support the idea of women preachers in general.

“I think the church is caving in to women preachers. Just the other day the same thing happened with Paula White. A whole bunch of leading evangelicals endorsed her new book. She’s a heretic and a prosperity preacher, three times married. What are they thinking?” MacArthur said of the televangelist who chairs the evangelical advisory board of the Trump administration during the “Truth Matters Conference,” held Oct. 16-18 at Grace Community Church. MacArthur’s 50th year in pulpit ministry was also celebrated during the event.

MacArthur’s reference to White comes in the wake of recent criticism of several prominent evangelical leaders, including Franklin Graham, president of Samaritan’s Purse and the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, who encouraged his two million followers to support White’s latest book, Something Greater, noting that she has lived an “interesting life.”

My friend @Paula_White has a wonderful new book releasing tomorrow about God’s power to transform lives. Read SOMETHING GREATER and give it to anyone looking for hope! pic.twitter.com/n2ci3DMvM6
— Dr. Robert Jeffress (@robertjeffress) October 15, 2019

White’s book also attracted support from other prominent evangelicals such as Jack Graham, pastor of Prestonwood Baptist Church in Plano, Texas, Robert Jeffress, pastor of First Baptist Dallas, and Jerry Falwell Jr., president of Liberty University, who said on Twitter: “Paula’s life is an encouragement to so many and I’m sure this book will encourage you.”

MacArthur’s comments on White and women in ministry, however, were sparked during a panel discussion in which he was asked to give a pithy response to “Beth Moore,” who is a prominent evangelical Bible teacher, author and founder of Living Proof Ministries.

The veteran Bible teacher bluntly replied: “Go home.”

He then followed that up with: “There is no case that can be made biblically for a woman preacher. Period. Paragraph. End of discussion.”


JOEL - And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:


ACTS - And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
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10/22/19 4:52 pm


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Post Link
The idea of 'strange fire' as a metaphor for disorder in church goes back a long time in the Reformed movement. John Knox preached along these lines.

The idea is supposed to be that doing stuff in church that the Bible does not instruct us to do is akin to Nadab and Abihu offering 'strange fire' before the Lord. They died of course, for using the strange fire from outside of the temple that God did not command them to use instead of the fire from the altar. And of course 'altar' in the Bible means a place for burning sacrifices or incense, not a place of prayer in front of a pulpit.

The idea that doing something you are not commanded to do--in church-- is an idea expressed in the 'Regulative Principle.' People in many of the congregations in the US that call themselves 'Church of Christ' will use this as an argument against musical instruments.

It is a huge leap to assume that a passage about an activity done for atonement in the New Testament applies to activities we do for mutual edification in church. But if it does, who is offering the strange fire?

There are not many passages that tell us what to do in church. The longest most detailed one is arguably I Corinthians 14. Neither this passage, nor any other passage, nor any other, tells us to sing three songs, hear one long sermon, have communion (monthly or weekly) sing three songs, pray and leave.

In fact, Paul gives 'commandments' of the Lord and implies they are universal (what came the word of God out from you or came it unto you only?) But he is dealing with meetings where 'every one of you' has a psalm, teaching, tongue, revelation, and/or interpretation. He says, 'Let all things be done unto edifying' and gives a few more restrictions on this.

Paul's instructions, commandments of the Lord, allow for speaking in tongues and interpretation. He commands the church to let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge. If another sitting by receives a revelation, let the first hold his peace, for ye may all prophesy one by one....

So if a church teaches that the preacher is 'prophesying' and he does not shut up and let someone who gets a revelation talk, is that strange fire?

If a pastor. pastors or congregation does not allow orderly speaking in tongues and interpreting, is that strange fire?

If a church does not allow 'every one of you' to teach 'unto edifying' within the parameters laid down in the passage, is that offering strange fire?

I don't know about the 'strange fire' allegorical interpretation, but I am concerned about the part where Paul says that the prophet or spiritual one should acknowledge that what he writes are the commandments of the Lord.

The real issue we should consider is whether not allowing these things is disobedience to the commandments of the Lord for church meetings.

To some extent Pentecostals follow Protestant tradition rather than scripture with church meetings. Some examples would be having one sermon and not allowing teaching 'from the floor' as we allow for tongues and prophesying.

I don't know if this is always disobedience or just a lack of prophetic activity, but have any of you ever seen a prophet hold his peace to let someone else give a revelation, an do Pentecostal churches truly allow all to prophesy one by one? We may be further along in some way than the 'strange fire' folks, but I don't think the Pentecostal or Charismatic movements are all the way there yet. And it seems like it has gone backwards in some ways from Azusa Street based on what I read of the expression of gifts at that revival.
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10/22/19 4:54 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
Where is Rafael when we need him.

I like JM. Great Bible teacher. Few Pentecostals actually teach the word anymore.
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10/22/19 6:40 pm


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Post FLRon
I think MacArthur is a brilliant scholar. Even brilliant scholars, however, get it wrong some times. John M is a cessationist and a five point Calvinist, which of course most Pentecostals are not. I am on board with him concerning a lot of the “extra biblical” excesses that he often speaks about, but I have a problem with the way he lumps all Pentecostals together with every extreme fringe group in the church, which is not fair to do IMO.

One of the first books I ever read of his was “Ashamed of the Gospel” which contained a lot of truth, and dare I say could almost be considered ‘prophetic’ to a small degree.
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10/22/19 8:14 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
FLRon wrote:
I think MacArthur is a brilliant scholar. Even brilliant scholars, however, get it wrong some times. John M is a cessationist and a five point Calvinist, which of course most Pentecostals are not. I am on board with him concerning a lot of the “extra biblical” excesses that he often speaks about, but I have a problem with the way he lumps all Pentecostals together with every extreme fringe group in the church, which is not fair to do IMO.

One of the first books I ever read of his was “Ashamed of the Gospel” which contained a lot of truth, and dare I say could almost be considered ‘prophetic’ to a small degree.


I think your feelings and perceptions of JM are shared by many of us. Great post.
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10/23/19 5:25 am


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Post Nature Boy Florida
FLRon wrote:

One of the first books I ever read of his was “Ashamed of the Gospel” which contained a lot of truth, and dare I say could almost be considered ‘prophetic’ to a small degree.


Sorry man. That would be strange fire. I hope his holiness MacArthur doesn't hear about this and turn his wrath on you.
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10/23/19 5:58 am


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Post Mixed Messaging - Grace or not? Mat
JM has some mixed messaging - his church is named "Grace" Community Church, but sometimes he's not so gracious to those he disagrees. However, when I read the various comments on women in ministry (and leadership) on COG pages, I also see mixed messaging. Also, there's a reference to JM's strong Calvinist beliefs, but I read postings by COG and other Pentecostals that seem to be supportive of Eternal Security, especially in cases of suicide.

We have seem many raised in Pentecostal churches leave to attend "Baptist" churches where the HS gifts are not practiced and "once saved always saved" message is primary. Even in Cleveland, TN, the largest local church in town/county is a Baptist church which is populated by former Pentecostals, many of which were COG.

JM way reflect more of the beliefs of COG members in the pews and some pulpits than we like to admit.

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10/23/19 8:00 am


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Post Da Sheik
Some of the leading voices of modern-day Calvinism can be extremely smug and arrogant. Having said that, I would not completely dismiss JM as a resource. His reference materials are very thorough and provide amazing historical context . Many of us COG guys could implement more of that in our preaching. The “leading voices” of Pentecost are woefully short on content and heavy on fluff. When was the last time you heard a Pentecostal on a major Christian network preaching a robust, expository message on a passage of scripture ? Acts Enthusiast
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10/23/19 2:48 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
I agree with many of the comments here about the quality of MacArthur's teaching. I especially agree with Da Sheik's comment.

With that said, MacArthur is a voice that is often difficult to listen to, not because of the content, but because of the presentation. I disagree with him about a few very significant things, but I think I could still really enjoy his exposition of Scripture if not for how he so often chooses to style his presentation. And unfortunately this was another great example of that. If his intention was to urge Beth Moore's repentance concerning some of the more troubling/difficult parts of her teaching, he did not advance the ball with his remarks during the Truth Matters conference.
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10/23/19 4:02 pm


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Post sheepdogandy
Da Sheik wrote:
Some of the leading voices of modern-day Calvinism can be extremely smug and arrogant. Having said that, I would not completely dismiss JM as a resource. His reference materials are very thorough and provide amazing historical context . Many of us COG guys could implement more of that in our preaching. The “leading voices” of Pentecost are woefully short on content and heavy on fluff. When was the last time you heard a Pentecostal on a major Christian network preaching a robust, expository message on a passage of scripture ?


Never.

That is a sad commentary.

We had Dollas Messer on the local cable channel.

Great response, at the end of the program folks would call in with questions.
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10/23/19 5:15 pm


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Post Re: Mixed Messaging - Grace or not? Dave Dorsey
Mat wrote:
JM way reflect more of the beliefs of COG members in the pews and some pulpits than we like to admit.

Well if the issue is the security of believers who die as a result of mental illness, then thank God for this.
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10/23/19 5:38 pm


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Post Re: Mixed Messaging - Grace or not? Mat
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Mat wrote:
JM way reflect more of the beliefs of COG members in the pews and some pulpits than we like to admit.

Well if the issue is the security of believers who die as a result of mental illness, then thank God for this.


Dave,

I find post-mortem assurance of salvation to be more for the bereaved's comfort than a function of the Gospel. Once this life ends, on our part it is speculation. We cannot preach the drunker in to heaven, though it is said alcoholism is a diseases, and we cannot condemn those we define as pharisees (you know, those old-time COG holiness folks) to hell (thou I have seen some try). The argument that if there is a one time confess of faith in Christ ensures that no matter what the future actions the individual takes we can assure the living that the dead are in heaven (or as Charles Stanley often says, once you take God's hand He never lets go). If we follow Calvinism to its full course, it is only the "elect" who have salvation and and heaven. Sovereign grace is dependent on the Sovereign, not the preacher, so not even JM can guarantee heaven for the dead, no matter the cause. Even our good Baptist brethren will say, if a person who once confessed Christ returns to a depraved lifestyle (like homosexuality), they must not have been saved in the first place.

Food for thought, but I still think its a "love - hate" relationship we Pentecostals have with JM and Calvinism in general. I wonder what the esteemed forefathers of the COG would say on the subject? What would Charles Conn say?

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10/24/19 6:06 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
I am not suggesting, nor do I believe, that a one-time confession of faith guarantees one's eternity (though I do hold to a properly understood Reformed view of the perseverance of the saints).

What I am opposing is the notion that people who die by suicide sin in their death, while people who die by cancer do not.
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10/24/19 6:17 am


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Post There is point .. Mat
Dave Dorsey wrote:
I am not suggesting, nor do I believe, that a one-time confession of faith guarantees one's eternity (though I do hold to a properly understood Reformed view of the perseverance of the saints).

What I am opposing is the notion that people who die by suicide sin in their death, while people who die by cancer do not.


There is the point, mental illness which leads to suicide is not a "saving grace" or assurance of salvation. God is the judge on the disposition of the eternal soul of man, and suicide, for whatever reason, is not a "back door" to heaven. There may be many who are in heaven who died as result of suicide brought on by mental illness, there will be many in hell who died as a result of suicide brought on by mental illness. Just as all cancer "victims" do not have a free pass into heaven because they had cancer (my mom died of cancer at age 65, but what defined her was her faith in God before and during cancer), but there will be those who died of cancer in heaven.

Will there be Women Bishops in heaven? Not in JM's heaven! Sad Shocked Rolling Eyes

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10/24/19 6:42 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting mental illness saves. I'm not suggesting it's a back door. With respect, that is ridiculous.

I do not think Jeffrey Epstein is in heaven because he killed himself.

I do emphatically affirm that a faithful believer who trusts in Christ and is justified by grace through faith cannot be snatched from His hand by mental illness.
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