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Niece, born raised in pentecost, embracing LGBTQ belief.....
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Post Niece, born raised in pentecost, embracing LGBTQ belief..... caseyleejones
I don't get it. She was born and raised in a pentecostal home/fam. Went on mission trips to India on her dime. She is not in that lifestyle but embracing it as okay.

I have watched the gay thing play out. I am seeing more and more young people see it as okay. This however took me aback.

Why? Is it because it's hip to embrace that as acceptable?

Again, I am stumped....
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10/12/19 1:05 pm


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Post FLRon
Don't know how old your niece is,but there is a definite trend among younger people that these things just don't matter.
Case in point,in the CoG I attend there is a lady there who has two lesbian daughters. She is devastated by this,as they were raised in the church. This lady has went on dozens of mission trips all around the world and her daughter's as well.
I chalk it up to the hour we are living in. And none of us should think our family is exempt from these issues
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10/12/19 4:39 pm


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Post Re: Niece, born raised in pentecost, embracing LGBTQ belief..... UncleJD
caseyleejones wrote:
I don't get it. She was born and raised in a pentecostal home/fam. Went on mission trips to India on her dime. She is not in that lifestyle but embracing it as okay.

I have watched the gay thing play out. I am seeing more and more young people see it as okay. This however took me aback.

Why? Is it because it's hip to embrace that as acceptable?

Again, I am stumped....


Has she heard the Biblical truth more or less often than the world's lies? I'd say most people going this way have had more indoctrination from social media than from church. Same with abortion when you have people claiming to be Christians but "pro-choice". for the most part, its the fault of the parents and Church (not always I'm sure, but largely).
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10/12/19 4:45 pm


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Post Dean Steenburgh
We've had youth in our church who went through the high school years & embraced the gay lifestyle (one of these youth was my Asst, Pastor's oldest son).
We had a really pretty girl in our church who would cause most boys to stop in their tracks & beg her for attention - one day she decided to go lesbian & she went hard core butch all the way & even covered her flawless skin in tattoos.
Multiple people in our church have family members who are full blown into the gay lifestyle.
One lady who has 3 sons & 2 daughters struggles that both girls (early 20) are both lesbians.
This is the fulfillment of scripture concerning the hardening of hearts & the words of Prophet David Wilkerson who said being gay would be popular just before the return of the Lord.

(this isn't exactly the same thing but I just found out this morning that one of my regular, faithful Kids Church volunteers decided to move in with her new boyfriend & enjoy not being lonely, she has grown children - some of my leadership said, "she seems really happy & this guy is good to her." ...HUH??????)
The church is losing it's bearings!!
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10/12/19 6:18 pm


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Post Cojak
It is definitely connected with age and school. 'Everyone knows the Bible is out of date! This is the enlightened era."
That thought permeates the younger generation. For Shame. YOu can blame church, parents, et all, but it is this Generation. What we must do is try to reach SOME! Shocked Crying or Very sad
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10/12/19 10:10 pm


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Post FLRon
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
We've had youth in our church who went through the high school years & embraced the gay lifestyle (one of these youth was my Asst, Pastor's oldest son).
We had a really pretty girl in our church who would cause most boys to stop in their tracks & beg her for attention - one day she decided to go lesbian & she went hard core butch all the way & even covered her flawless skin in tattoos.
Multiple people in our church have family members who are full blown into the gay lifestyle.
One lady who has 3 sons & 2 daughters struggles that both girls (early 20) are both lesbians.
This is the fulfillment of scripture concerning the hardening of hearts & the words of Prophet David Wilkerson who said being gay would be popular just before the return of the Lord.

(this isn't exactly the same thing but I just found out this morning that one of my regular, faithful Kids Church volunteers decided to move in with her new boyfriend & enjoy not being lonely, she has grown children - some of my leadership said, "she seems really happy & this guy is good to her." ...HUH??????)
The church is losing it's bearings!!


This sounds familiar to me. The church of God I attend has at least two unmarried couples living together. They are active in the church and one of them holds an important position.
What do you do when the pastor says he doesn't have a problem with it? The answer I believe is to move on.
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10/13/19 9:08 am


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Post Re: Niece, born raised in pentecost, embracing LGBTQ belief..... buttrfli24
caseyleejones wrote:
I don't get it. She was born and raised in a pentecostal home/fam. Went on mission trips to India on her dime. She is not in that lifestyle but embracing it as okay.

I have watched the gay thing play out. I am seeing more and more young people see it as okay. This however took me aback.

Why? Is it because it's hip to embrace that as acceptable?

Again, I am stumped....


Just curious about what conversations you have had with your niece about her decision to embrace this. Have you talked to her about why she thinks its ok and what she feels the scripture is saying? No judgment. Just wondering what her thoughts have been.
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10/14/19 10:04 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
FLRon wrote:
What do you do when the pastor says he doesn't have a problem with it? The answer I believe is to move on.

A pastor who won't confront someone else's sin won't confront yours either. After properly voicing my concerns, if things did not change, I would absolutely move on. I want to know there is someone who will lovingly call me out if I become deceived and enter into sin.

Church discipline is a loving, compassionate means through which the Lord works to return the wayward to Himself. A pastor who will not confront unrepentant sin hates those who are engaging in it. There is no nicer way to say it.

He does not need to kick them out of his church. He does not need to shame them or publicly rebuke them. Their attendance should be encouraged and their presence welcomed. But his posture toward them should be one of evangelism toward unbelievers, rather than inclusion in the community of faith.
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10/14/19 10:16 am


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Post Resident Skeptic
The church is going to have to embrace some sort of separation akin to monasticism. I mean we are going to have to build our own concurrent society and institutions. Really, if we got back to an originalist view of the Constitution, all this sin could be dealt with by Christian local authorities without Federal Courts evoking imaginary constitutional rights for ebauchery. Christians have limited their civic involvement to a few protests rather than aggressive reform, all in the name of "the imminent rapture".
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10/14/19 11:11 am


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Post As a retired high school teacher... roughridercog
I can tell you that it is quite a fad for girls to have girl on girl experiences and even required for some sorority initiation. Sometimes a girls boyfriend is encouraged to join in.
Has the church relaxed its standards to the point where conviction for sin is gone and acceptance has taken its place?
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10/14/19 12:10 pm


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Post Eddie Robbins
It’s not the church’s place to condemn those who are outside the church and that’s exactly what is happening and it keeps people away. When their only exposure to Christians is a hatred towards them, why should they listen to anything a Christian has to say? So, are we concerned about the soul of a person or just repulsed by a lifestyle and just want to yell at them that they’re going to hell in a tone that almost seems like we’re happy about it? I can tell you this, what we’re doing now isn’t working. It’s time that a Christian comes across more loving than Ellen. If I were gay, the last place I would want to go is a church where I’m going to be told that I’m going to hell because of something I have no control over. Who needs that? Acts-pert Poster
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10/14/19 12:21 pm


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Post FLRon
Dave Dorsey wrote:
FLRon wrote:
What do you do when the pastor says he doesn't have a problem with it? The answer I believe is to move on.

A pastor who won't confront someone else's sin won't confront yours either. After properly voicing my concerns, if things did not change, I would absolutely move on. I want to know there is someone who will lovingly call me out if I become deceived and enter into sin.

Church discipline is a loving, compassionate means through which the Lord works to return the wayward to Himself. A pastor who will not confront unrepentant sin hates those who are engaging in it. There is no nicer way to say it.

He does not need to kick them out of his church. He does not need to shame them or publicly rebuke them. Their attendance should be encouraged and their presence welcomed. But his posture toward them should be one of evangelism toward unbelievers, rather than inclusion in the community of faith.


Excellent comments Dave. I agree wholeheartedly that their salvation should be of the utmost importance. It’s like when I told the pastor I was made aware of someone in the church that is a social drinker he responded by saying there were several in the church that drank. That was a shock to me! I pressed him as to why he never reiterated the COG beliefs concerning alcohol to the congregation, thinking of course that a little training/education might be beneficial. The answer was that he didn’t want to offend the people. That and one of his children openly drinks alcoholic beverages. So there you have it. We no longer confront ‘sin in the camp’ yet wonder why our children are falling off the cliff into immorality.
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10/14/19 12:37 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
Posted with great respect, FLRon -- I would gently submit that the conflation of moderate social drinking with fornication might be a part of the problem. I understand the COG practical commitments on the matter and I respect a COG pastor's right to ask his members to adhere to the practical commitments. But the reality is that one is objectively biblically sinful and the other is an issue of conscience that has been codified into a denominational requirement that goes beyond the requirements of Scripture.

When everything is a sin, nothing is. People can look in their Bibles and see that the moderate consumption of alcohol is a biblical issue of conscience, so I think it may ultimately be unhelpful to present it as being sin in the camp alongside biblically objective sins like fornication, etc.

With all that said, I think the issue of a pastor "not wanting to offend" is indeed probably the main reason why real sin is not confronted. Again, I would rather be offended by a man then cast away from the Lord for having lived a life of unrepentant offense toward Him!

My church takes discipline very seriously. In the last 10 years or so there have been no more than five or so issues that have gone to the end of the Matthew 18 process, and half of those ultimately resulted in repentance. It is not an every day part of the church's culture, for sure. But it is incredibly comforting to know that if I am ever deceived into unrepentant sin, my church will take it seriously.
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Post Cojak
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Posted with great respect, FLRon -- I would gently submit that the conflation of moderate social drinking with fornication might be a part of the problem. I understand the COG practical commitments on the matter and I respect a COG pastor's right to ask his members to adhere to the practical commitments. But the reality is that one is objectively biblically sinful and the other is an issue of conscience that has been codified into a denominational requirement that goes beyond the requirements of Scripture.

When everything is a sin, nothing is. People can look in their Bibles and see that the moderate consumption of alcohol is a biblical issue of conscience, so I think it may ultimately be unhelpful to present it as being sin in the camp alongside biblically objective sins like fornication, etc.

With all that said, I think the issue of a pastor "not wanting to offend" is indeed probably the main reason why real sin is not confronted. Again, I would rather be offended by a man then cast away from the Lord for having lived a life of unrepentant offense toward Him!

My church takes discipline very seriously. In the last 10 years or so there have been no more than five or so issues that have gone to the end of the Matthew 18 process, and half of those ultimately resulted in repentance. It is not an every day part of the church's culture, for sure. But it is incredibly comforting to know that if I am ever deceived into unrepentant sin, my church will take it seriously.

I prefer not to quote an entire comment, so I usually pick a part and delete the rest. But I do agree with this comment. I might have missed it but the statement 'when everything is a sin nothing is', is new to me and takes some thinking.
anyway an amen to the comment! Cool
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Last edited by Cojak on 10/14/19 7:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post People often have relative theology roughridercog
Sin is sin until a close relative gets involved in it. Plus to speak out against the sin of homosexuality brings about physical persecution and isolation (by students) in schools. In some countries, it's even illegal. It will rapidly become illegal soon in the United States.
Our youth is inundated by these brainwashing techniques via the media and the school system. They have our kids more than the church does.
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Post FLRon
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Posted with great respect, FLRon -- I would gently submit that the conflation of moderate social drinking with fornication might be a part of the problem. I understand the COG practical commitments on the matter and I respect a COG pastor's right to ask his members to adhere to the practical commitments. But the reality is that one is objectively biblically sinful and the other is an issue of conscience that has been codified into a denominational requirement that goes beyond the requirements of Scripture.

When everything is a sin, nothing is. People can look in their Bibles and see that the moderate consumption of alcohol is a biblical issue of conscience, so I think it may ultimately be unhelpful to present it as being sin in the camp alongside biblically objective sins like fornication, etc.

With all that said, I think the issue of a pastor "not wanting to offend" is indeed probably the main reason why real sin is not confronted. Again, I would rather be offended by a man then cast away from the Lord for having lived a life of unrepentant offense toward Him!

My church takes discipline very seriously. In the last 10 years or so there have been no more than five or so issues that have gone to the end of the Matthew 18 process, and half of those ultimately resulted in repentance. It is not an every day part of the church's culture, for sure. But it is incredibly comforting to know that if I am ever deceived into unrepentant sin, my church will take it seriously.


I do not disagree with your position Dave. To be completely honest, I do not entirely agree with the COG position on alcohol. I was merely pointing out to the pastor that if you’re going to pastor in a denomination that preaches total abstinence, then perhaps the reason the people are not complying is that they haven’t been taught the denominations expectations.
At the time, it made sense to me. At the end of the day however, my thoughts on the matter were pretty much dismissed.
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10/14/19 6:55 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
A sidelight to this conversation...

Isn't it widely accepted that alcoholic consumption by young ladies makes it easier to get her to commit fornication?

Couldn't it easily be said that one led to the other? (I know it is often given the credit for it)

If so, why teach that the Bible teaches it is ok for young single (or married) ladies to drink? Are the writers of the Practical Commitments so stupid that they can't read and interpret the Bible as well as we can?

And if it would be best if young ladies don't drink - what about the 20 something young men that so easily give in to excess...excess speed, binge drinking, etc.. (all well documented in medical and insurance publications). Young men are much more susceptible to one beer leading to twenty. (all documented)

If that's the case - why green light it to anyone?

It's just foolishness...which is all we are anymore.

So, why would we be surprised when kids have sex with the same sex - doing things that are so unnatural, foolish. What we are teaching them is so dumb, maybe their secular humanist teachers, movie stars, athletes are right. Gay sex might be what makes them happy. Perhaps mutilating themselves like Caitlyn Jenner will make them happy.

Just a thought. Feel free to disagree. Our Christianity is having so little effect in America anymore - we've passed the point of no return.
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Post revuriah
I know a family from my home church in Michigan, a COG, that I believe has a son that has “come out”. I knew this kid when he was young. This mom has lately come out in strong support of the LGBTQ community, posting nothing but praise on a gay-friendly Baptist church in Ann Arbor (a very liberal city, home of U of M). It is saddening for my wife and myself, because we were fairly close to this family. They do not attend the COG there anymore (at least they weren’t there on my last visit in August).

I read somewhere that it’s called “relative theology”. People are against that sin till a relative comes out.
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Post Resident Skeptic
revuriah wrote:
I know a family from my home church in Michigan, a COG, that I believe has a son that has “come out”. I knew this kid when he was young. This mom has lately come out in strong support of the LGBTQ community, posting nothing but praise on a gay-friendly Baptist church in Ann Arbor (a very liberal city, home of U of M). It is saddening for my wife and myself, because we were fairly close to this family. They do not attend the COG there anymore (at least they weren’t there on my last visit in August).

I read somewhere that it’s called “relative theology”. People are against that sin till a relative comes out.



My former fiancee, who I dated from 1991-1993, turned to lesbianism after first marriage ended in 1998. Thankfully, her parents have stood strong against her sin while loving her unconditionally. When she entered into her first lesbian "marriage," her parents did not attend the wedding. Furthermore, they made it clear that though their new "daughter-in-law" was very welcome in their home, separate sleeping arrangements would be required under their roof. They truly have been loving and kind to their DIL through it all, while believing God for their daughter to repent and return to Christ. It looks as if though the "marriage' is failing as the daughter is in an "adulterous" relationship.
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Post Resident Skeptic
Eddie Robbins wrote:
It’s not the church’s place to condemn those who are outside the church and that’s exactly what is happening and it keeps people away. When their only exposure to Christians is a hatred towards them, why should they listen to anything a Christian has to say? So, are we concerned about the soul of a person or just repulsed by a lifestyle and just want to yell at them that they’re going to hell in a tone that almost seems like we’re happy about it? I can tell you this, what we’re doing now isn’t working. It’s time that a Christian comes across more loving than Ellen. If I were gay, the last place I would want to go is a church where I’m going to be told that I’m going to hell because of something I have no control over. Who needs that?


"Having no control over it" has never mattered to God when it comes to any sin. Heterosexual whore-hounds have no control over it, either. Neither do drunks and thieves. Christ came to free us from both the condemnation and control of sin. God has promised grace to those who humble themselves. Gays should not be treated any different than anyone else. God commandeth men everywhere to repent and to acknowledge their inability in themselves to live a life pleasing to God.
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