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 Question for those who do not believe in Eternal Security |
Da Sheik |
Rom 8:29Â For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.Â
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (KJV)
I would love for those that don't believe in eternal security to explain this passage in their own words (please no copy/paste hit & run posts  ). Please limit this discussion to this verse and don't rabbit trail to other proof text arguments. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
10/4/19 12:55 pm
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| I am certainly not going to get involved |
brotherjames |
| In a lengthy fruitless discussion with a Calvinist. Books and books have been written on this subject. I, for one believe that I am eternally saved from the second death and been translated into the kingdom of His dear Son as long as I choose to believe. He knew I would make that choice and once I made it I became part of the elect of God. All are called but few are chosen. He wishes that none would perish but that all will come to repentance. Many will choose not to do so. As lo g as I am in the Kingdom my destiny is heaven, it is predestined that all who are the elect of God are destined, predestined if you will to heaven. If I choose to leave his kingdom my destiny changes with my choice now my destiny is hell and that is predestined that all who will not choose Jesus are destined to hell. All about choice. He fore knows our choices. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
10/4/19 7:27 pm
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| Re: I am certainly not going to get involved |
Dave Dorsey |
| brotherjames wrote: | | As lo g as I am in the Kingdom my destiny is heaven, it is predestined that all who are the elect of God are destined, predestined if you will to heaven. If I choose to leave his kingdom my destiny changes with my choice now my destiny is hell and that is predestined that all who will not choose Jesus are destined to hell. |
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Posts: 13654
10/4/19 7:45 pm
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Brandon Bohannon |
I believe that this text is talking about a class of people and not certain individuals.
Using the whole of Scripture we can certainly see where we must align or choose to keep covenant with Him.
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Proverbs 3:5-6; John 13:34-35; Acts 1:8 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 571
10/4/19 8:30 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Brandon Bohannon wrote: | I believe that this text is talking about a class of people and not certain individuals.
Using the whole of Scripture we can certainly see where we must align or choose to keep covenant with Him. |
Please forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but how would the text change if it was talking about a class of people rather than certain individuals? (I agree with the interpretation of a class here, by the way.)
I'm not sure why brotherjames felt it was necessary to play the "C" card. Let's presume an Arminian soteriology, and that the class of people in Rom 8:29-30 are the elect whom God foreknew would choose him. Looking down the corridors of time and seeing their choice, God predestined them, called them, justified them, and glorified them.
How is it possible that this can be genuinely received, but then lost? In texts concerning apostasy, like 1 John 2:19, it seems clear that those who depart the faith were never actually truly "of" it to begin with. Does the Lord not know those who are his?
And if this genuine salvation is lost, can it be genuinely received again? |
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Posts: 13654
10/5/19 6:43 am
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Da Sheik |
This is a five-fold strand of activity on God's part. God foreknows, God predestines, God calls, God justifies, God glorifies. The entirety of Romans 8 is a powerful expression of the security of the believer. Let's set aside all of the implications of Reformed theology in the first 3 strands (I really don't want to, but to find common ground for discussion, I'll table that for now). Let's just look at the last 2 strands: justification and glorification.
In the final cords of the strand, we read "whom He justified, them He also glorified". There are no exceptions listed here. It does not say, "some that He justified, He also glorified". |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
10/5/19 1:06 pm
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| Re: Question for those who do not believe in Eternal Security |
Aaron Scott |
| Da Sheik wrote: | Rom 8:29Â For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.Â
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (KJV)
I would love for those that don't believe in eternal security to explain this passage in their own words (please no copy/paste hit & run posts ). Please limit this discussion to this verse and don't rabbit trail to other proof text arguments. |
There are people that God does indeed predestinate. They WILL be saved. They WILL have eternal life.
But there are others that, like the City of Jerusalem, COULD have been saved...but refused. Or COULD have been saved...and WERE!
There are verses in BOTH directions. It is impossible to reconcile them without accepting that BOTH can be true. Why else would Jesus be sorrowful about the rich, young ruler unless another choice could have been made. If not, then Jesus was apparently sad that heaven had predestined the guy for hell.
Further, if you do NOT believe in free will, you, of necessity, must except that everyone not predestined to eternal life is predestined to hell. The act of petty, petulant, adolescent God who COULD save everyone...but won't.
I consider that one of the most damnable doctrines ever, and a deep flaw in full Calvinism (even though I know it comes from the best of intentions).
I wouldn't serve a God like that (assuming I had a CHOICE). I'd say, "Nope. You cannot be trusted. You will send good people to burn forever, while giving eternal life to...Hitler. You may make me think I'm saved, only for me to find out I'm not. I'm going to heaven or hell and there is literally NOTHING I can do no matter how I feel about it, so why do ANYTHING except what I want to do. Worst case scenario, I go to hell...but at least I went there doing what I wanted. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
10/5/19 5:50 pm
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| Re: Question for those who do not believe in Eternal Security |
Dave Dorsey |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | You will send good people to burn forever |
I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion about election and reprobation, but you should know that this is the point where your argument runs off the track. Romans 3:10
Arminians and Calvinists would both wholly reject this premise underlying your outrage at God's judgment. |
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Posts: 13654
10/5/19 6:05 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Da Sheik wrote: | | In the final cords of the strand, we read "whom He justified, them He also glorified". There are no exceptions listed here. It does not say, "some that He justified, He also glorified". |
Getting back to the main point:
If this is referring to a group (I agree) whom God justified, then how is it that it the entire group is not also glorified? Where is the note that some of the group that has been justified will become unjustified, and will not be glorified?
How can the plain language of this verse be understood differently than what it says? |
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Posts: 13654
10/5/19 7:43 pm
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sheepdogandy |
Read Hebrews.
Get a life.
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Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7298
10/5/19 9:09 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| sheepdogandy wrote: | Read Hebrews.
Get a life. |
Sorry, what exactly do you mean by "get a life"? |
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Posts: 13654
10/5/19 9:20 pm
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Da Sheik |
| sheepdogandy wrote: | Read Hebrews.
Get a life. |
I’ve defended you many times in this very forum. If someone in your congregation came to you with this question would you respond accordingly? I’m trying to stimulate discussion here and help us think through what we believe and why we do. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
10/7/19 8:19 pm
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sheepdogandy |
For years and years I have debated this question with sincere Christians.
I was raised in a Southern Baptist congregation which held tightly to this errant doctrine.
Indeed this has become my response.
Cut to the chase.
Read Hebrews, get a life!
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Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7298
10/7/19 8:33 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Would recommend you skip these threads, then, rather than acting uncharitably toward people who actually are interested in discussing theology and doctrine. |
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10/7/19 8:41 pm
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Da Sheik |
| sheepdogandy wrote: | | Read Hebrews, get a life! |
I’ll ask you a question Andy. Which was written first? Romans or Hebrews ? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
10/7/19 9:45 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| A lot of people have a belief, then go to the scriptures to find support of their belief. Their belief is the right one. Don’t even question them about it. |
Acts-pert Poster
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10/8/19 6:41 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | A lot of people have a belief, then go to the scriptures to find support of their belief. Their belief is the right one. Don’t even question them about it. |
Yeah. I'm really not interested in winning anyone over to "my" position (whatever that is), but shouldn't we all be eager to engage with out beliefs, think through things biblically, and learn to think theologically?
ESPECIALLY when we have the opportunity to do so in good faith, with orthodox Christian brothers?
Sometimes the reactions you see are very, very sad. If someone doesn't want to engage in a theological discussion, no one is forcing them to. But to give a drive-by insult toward those who are interested in having a theological exchange... it's just super, super sad. |
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Posts: 13654
10/8/19 6:54 am
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| David... |
Aaron Scott |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | You will send good people to burn forever |
I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion about election and reprobation, but you should know that this is the point where your argument runs off the track. Romans 3:10
Arminians and Calvinists would both wholly reject this premise underlying your outrage at God's judgment. |
Truthfully, I could care less what they might say, and for two reasons:
1) They have a vested interest in NOT permitting there to be ANY exception to their theological viewpoint. The notion that there could be BOTH predestination and free will is repugnant to them. Of course, as you will know, that doesn't make the position wrong. In fact, for my money, it almost certainly makes it RIGHT!!! (SMILE)
2) I have to go where MY CONSCIENCE and MY STUDY take me. I cannot wear Saul's armor on theological matters. I wish I could, as it would save me a lot of grief, of getting called a heretic, etc., if I would only, only, only just accept what they tell me is the case. But while I certainly skewer to the Arminian side, we KNOW--ABSOLUTELY KNOW!--that there is some predestination (to one degree or another) going on. To ignore that or try to explain it away is what I have come to detest about most theological positions: Despite there being verses to the contrary, they refuse to allow that it is any way but there way...and so spin off into, for me, uselessness.
I'm not trying to prove one side or another. I am offering a way forward that takes into account ALL the verses pertaining to this matter. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
10/8/19 9:54 am
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| David, I didn't quite answer your question.... |
Aaron Scott |
Yes, I absolutely agree that everyone deserves to go to hell, etc. I get that.
At the same time, we who have recoiled in horror at the cruelties of ancient, pagan, or heathen gods (I'm not sure I understand all those distinctions), will blithely accept that OUR God can be A TRILLION TIMES MORE CRUEL (i.e., to burn someone forever in hellfire)...yet be this wonderful, loving, kind Father?
No. Just no.
Yes, there is a justice that comes with God. And that justice may very well be burning in hell forever for your sins.
But to burn in hell forever JUST BECAUSE GOD ARBITRARILY DID NOT SELECT YOU IN HEAVEN'S LOTTERY is a cruelty that makes me shake my head at people who accept it.
That is, God COULD save EVERYONE (not if they have free will, perhaps, but certainly if He is predestinating everyone), but chooses not to. Which of us would think that a man who saw two drowning people and COULD HAVE SAVED BOTH, but didn't, allowing one to drown, is remotely justified?
Our sense of justice is PRECISELY what allows us to call God good and just when we see Him in action. We know He is good, that is, because we recognize good. He placed that in us, obviously. But Calvinists apparently want to argue that, no, you don't really know good, evil, or justice...otherwise you would rejoice in God's goodness at making millions of unfortunate souls burn forever.
HOGWASH.
That is a twisted Christianity. (Granted, I am giving this the "take it to the extreme" treatment that we use for polemics. I know that your day-to-day Calvinists might find this stuff as hard to swallow as I do, and might claim that that is not what they believe.) And as it is twisted, I reject it.
The God I serve is love. And that includes a love for victims and for those who have had to deal with injustice. Yes, God does right the scales. But to act like He would send someone to hell "just because," nope, I reject that. Just as John and other rejected the twisted Christianity of the Nicolaitans and "that Jezebel," so, too, should we reject twisted Christianity. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
10/8/19 10:07 am
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Brandon Bohannon |
2 Peter 3:9
2 Peter 3:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Here is but one example of why building a doctrine out of one text or proof texts is a flawed methodology. Calvinism as a soteriology is neat and packaged until one begins to do what is being attempted in this conversation and compare it to the whole counsel of Scripture. In general, Calvinists or at least NeoCalvanism of today lack grace, the fruit of the Spirit whilst possessing aggression and anger in these conversations. They tend to attack and bully when other Scriptures are brought into the conversation. They want to stay in the box and only discuss the packaged Scripture.
I believe in the element of man's free will BUT I also believe that God knows everything. How do I quickly square the two? Like many things, the mysteries of God. 
I believe that there will be both Arminians and Calvinists in eternity/heaven/the new earth. Just as there will be those of every tongue, tribe, and nation. That idea is found in Scripture. My only brother, 3 years younger than me, is a Calvinists. When he came out. My COG parents were devastated. My brother might as well had admitted to being gay. My parents felt rejected at first as my baby brother tried with all of his might to convert all of us. Not being willing to lose my relationship with my brother, I prayed and studied, and studied and prayed. I searched the Scripture. I read up on Arminianism and Calvinism. I asked questions from people in both camps.
In the end, two things happened. #1 I discovered in my study that I am very Wesleyan. LOL. I also simultaneously discovered that I am a "classic Pentecostal". My personal beliefs were strongly affirmed. I don't claim to know everything or even anything except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Much to me falls within the mysteries of God. I trust Him. Completely.
#2 I maintained my relationship with my only brother. We agree to disagree and we also agree that we both want to please the Father and to one day hear, "His lord said unto him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. Thou hast been faithful over a few things; I will make thee ruler over many things. Enter thou into the joy of thy lord.’
It is not real likely that I will change my mind on this matter as my mind on it is that neither side really knows and that the Truth contains parts of both. I don't mind discussing it as long as all parties treat each other respectfully and operate in the spirit of love and the demonstration of His fruit. It is an interesting topic and one that can potentially serve as iron sharpening iron.
Finally, we need to maintain long-suffering with each other because this isn't a question that is soon to go away. If you are a growing church, your new people and young people will bring it up. Even if your mind is made up, I pray that you are gracious and kind with someone who disagrees or doesn't know what they believe on it yet. After all, Arminian or Calvinist, aren't we all supposed to point people to the Way, Jesus?
_________________
Proverbs 3:5-6; John 13:34-35; Acts 1:8 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 571
10/8/19 10:54 am
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