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roughridercog

Do you believe in a pre trib rapture?

Acts Mod Posts: 25306 **9/18/19 7:09 am**

Because of what you've been taught or what you have studied?
There is a difference. I look forward to discussion on this.
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation

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Acts-celerater Posts: 874 **9/18/19 7:50 am**

I was raised to believe it, but studied all three major positions extensively. While I don't have much of a problem with the mid-trib rapture position, one cannot believe in the imminent return of Christ unless you hold a pre-trib rapture view. I believe the Lord could return at any time, and that belief greatly informs my pre-trib view of the rapture.

sheepdogandy

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 7298 **9/18/19 9:12 am**

Yeah, what he said. Very Happy

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Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God

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Da Sheik

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1860 **9/18/19 12:17 pm**

I don't break fellowship with anyone over timing of the rapture, but I strongly lean towards the Pre-Trib position. I'll offer just a few reasons:

#1- Many people will point to the Gospels as proof that the rapture and 2nd coming are one in the same event. The problem with that view is that Paul told the Corinthians that the doctrine of the rapture was a "mystery"- something previously unrevealed. The Gospels have a very Jewish view of the end-times because Jesus' earthly ministry was primarily to the lost sheep of Israel.

#2- Paul indicates in Romans that something will happen which will again turn the majority of God's dealings to the nation of Israel. In Romans 11:25 Paul says that what will precipitate that is the "fulness of the Gentiles" coming in. The rapture seems to fit perfectly with this scenario. This brings me to my final point in this..

#3- After Revelation chapter 3, the book takes a decided turn towards Israel again

So for me, one of the major defenses of the Pre-Trib position is that it allows for God's dealings with Israel to be fulfilled.

Cojak

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24277 **9/18/19 10:38 pm**

spartanfan

Pre-Trib Only Works

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3638 **9/19/19 7:11 am**

Because of Matthew 24:36 (KJV): "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." and other Scriptures, only pre-trib works for me. The tribulation has a definite easy -to- identify beginning with the signing of a peace treaty between Israel and her Arab enemies. Daniel 9:27 (GNT)says, "That ruler will have a firm agreement with many people for seven years, and when half this time is past, he will put an end to sacrifices and offerings. The Awful horror will be placed on the highest point of the temple and will remain there until the one who put it there meets the end which God has prepared for him." So it starts with the confirming of the agreement and ends 7 years later with Armageddon. So..... if you don't know the day or the hour of His return (only the Father does - as in the Jewish Wedding System), then it has to be pre-trib. If it's mid-trib then you would know Jesus is coming exactly 3 and a half years after it begins. If it's post-trib then you would know He's coming back 7 years after the agreement is signed. So in order for Him to come on a day and hour that only the Father knows - it has to be preTrib. Nothing else works!

SCFIRE

Acts-celerater Posts: 713 **9/19/19 1:46 pm**

I'm wid Da Sheik - & Spartanfan.
I've argued my last time with the Kingdom Folk and will just preach what I believe is truth.
I would rather spend my time winning souls and getting people to Christ than to be bogged down in doctrine disputes.
Yes, Pre-Trib for me in answer to the question above and I'm pre-trib from being taught as well as studying it out for myself.
I've been harassed by ministry coming to my house trying to get me to change, when I was kind enough to let them preach for me, and when I did they would knowingly plant discord in our church.
I have studied with them for hours and even tried not to preach the Pre Trib thing for 3 months to give myself every bit of opportunity to "know the truth".
I've been called unteachable, unreachable, and bull headed but I am at peace in my walk with God. I am fully convinced the Coming of Jesus is imminent and the results in the salvation of souls department is stronger than it has ever been. I'm flying, I ain't dying, and I'm gonna have a hot meal straight off the Table and not any cold cuts at the end. That last line is just corny humor on my part. lol....... But regardless for what goes down, I will be ready.
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IT'S GOD'S TIME FOR SOUTH CAROLINA

SCFIRE

Acts-celerater Posts: 713 **9/19/19 7:20 pm**

I'm wid Da Sheik - & Spartanfan.
I've argued my last time with the Kingdom Folk and will just preach what I believe is truth.
I would rather spend my time winning souls and getting people to Christ than to be bogged down in doctrine disputes.
Yes, Pre-Trib for me in answer to the question above and I'm pre-trib from being taught as well as studying it out for myself.
I've been harassed by ministry coming to my house trying to get me to change, when I was kind enough to let them preach for me, and when I did they would knowingly plant discord in our church.
I have studied with them for hours and even tried not to preach the Pre Trib thing for 3 months to give myself every bit of opportunity to "know the truth".
I've been called unteachable, unreachable, and bull headed but I am at peace in my walk with God. I am fully convinced the Coming of Jesus is imminent and the results in the salvation of souls department is stronger than it has ever been. I'm flying, I ain't dying, and I'm gonna have a hot meal straight off the Table and not any cold cuts at the end. That last line is just corny humor on my part. lol....... But regardless for what goes down, I will be ready.
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IT'S GOD'S TIME FOR SOUTH CAROLINA

Resident Skeptic

Acts-dicted Posts: 8065 **9/20/19 6:31 pm**

In 1990 I realized I could no longer continue the mental and hermeneutical gymnastics required to uphold the pre-trib doctrine. If Christ returns today, then the 1000 (IF the 1000 years are literal) year reign starts today. No secret rapture. No 7 year tribulation. Jesus comes one time.

Christ has known the day and hour of his coming since his glorification. He is the all-knowing Jehovah. Furthermore, he never said men would not be able to narrow down the approximate time of his return. It is clear in Matthew that people will still be caught unaware, in spite of prophecy being fulfilled around them, because they will by that time have been sent strong delusion that they should believe a lie and be damned. The saints will be kept through all this and be spared God's wrath.

I also think a PARTIAL-preterism may be true, that leaves room for a future second coming.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI

sheepdogandy

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 7298 **9/21/19 2:26 pm**

Of course you know how this errant doctrine would go over in the Baptist church.

Like a lead balloon. Rolling Eyes

_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God

www.spwc.church

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Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **9/21/19 2:31 pm**

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Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **9/21/19 2:49 pm**

I grew up believing pre-trib since that was what I was taught. But after reading all the passages, I noticed pre-trib teaching was noticeably absent. Why wasn't there a pre-trib rapture in Revelation?

Pre-trib requires us to interpret one verse about the coming of Jesus to refer to a pre-trib rapture and other references to refer to a post-trib one...assuming one is operating within a 'tribulational' framework.

I Corinthians 1 teaches that they that are Christ's shall be made alive 'at His coming.' The version of pre-trib I was taught has the saints being raptured and resurrected 7 years before the second coming.

If no man knows the day and hour of the Son of Man's coming, then how can pre-trib be true? Men could know 7 years after the rapture, Jesus comes back.

I Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

(NKJV, emphasis in bold mine.)

The word translated 'coming' here is parousia, and is used to refer to the second coming elsewhere. Take this verse for example.

Compare that to the reference to the coming/parousia of the Lord in this passage:

II Thessalonians 2
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
(NKJV, emphasis mine.)

There isn't any Biblical justification for counting the parousia-- the official arrival-- of the Lord as two events. If the 'parousia' refers to one thing, then notice that the lawless one is here for the parousia. Pre-trib doesn't allow the man of sin to show up until after the rapture. In I Thessalonians 4, the church is here for the parousia... right there in that famous rapture passage! If the man of sin is here at the rapture/parousia event, it makes sense that this occurs after the presentation.

So what happens at the parousia? The saints are here, sanctified body soul and spirit (hopefully) at the parousia according to I Thessalonians 5. The dead in Christ are raised and the remaning saints are raptured according to I Thessalonians 4. And the man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of Christ's parousia.

On the pre-trib side of the argument, I just read really strained attempts at logical argument. Paul says we are not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation. That is stretched to mean that the church can't be hear when God pours out wrath on the earth. Not being hear for bowls of wrath wouldn't necessitate a full 7 year pre-trib rapture anyway, but God preserved Israel while he poured out wrath on Egypt.

If the 'not appointed unto wrath' verse means the church won't be here during the tribulation, then why do pre-tribbers say there will be tribulational saints. Revelation sure seems to praise them. Why would we think God pours His wrath on them? I Thessalonians says not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Are the tribulational saints appointed to obtain salvation? If so, why would we consider them to be appointed unto wrath.

The whole pre-trib theory seems to be constructed on such strained arguments, and also on just reading pre-trib into passages where it just doesn't fit... just assuming it's true. I have also encountered those who think the reference to the apostacy refers to the rapture, which is an odd interpretation. They justify it based on how the word was translated into English in the past, usually, rather than what it meant in Greek-- a strange bit of sophistry.
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Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **9/21/19 2:55 pm**

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Notice the sequence of events that happen after the tribulation in this passage.
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Resident Skeptic

Acts-dicted Posts: 8065 **9/21/19 5:23 pm**

Aaron Scott

Nope.

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6032 **9/21/19 5:48 pm**

All the actual SCRIPTURAL statements imply tribulation before the return of Jesus. ONLY if you do some mystic (even Gnostic?) or nebulous interpretation of the Bible can you get to a pre-trib rapture.

So, no, it's just not there.

But, yes, Jesus could come tonight.

Why? For these verses:

famousflavius

Pre_ Trib Yes!

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2447 **9/21/19 8:54 pm**

Pre Trib Yes! Because Jack Van Impe says its true!

Bro Bob

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3945 **9/23/19 1:16 pm**

I don't know for sure either way.

But I do know 1/4th of world population dies in one event during the tribulation, and the 1/3rd of those who survived that ( 1/2 total ) die in a later event.

If the Church is still here, will they escape this? Or will the wrath of God fall upon the just and the unjust alike?

And when one says no literal millennial reign of Christ, they might as well say there is no literal Christ. No literal resurrection. We might as well own this, without the resurrection, none of us will be anything other than dust after this life.

BB