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 Is Israel a racist state? |
Resident Skeptic |
I am interested in your opinion.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
9/4/19 1:52 pm
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| An emphatic |
brotherjames |
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are many Arabs and Christians living and voting in Israel. Just don't expect them to embrace people who want to wipe them off the face of the earth. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
9/4/19 5:10 pm
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| Re: An emphatic |
Resident Skeptic |
| brotherjames wrote: | NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are many Arabs and Christians living and voting in Israel. Just don't expect them to embrace people who want to wipe them off the face of the earth. |
What about their laws on intermarriage?
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
9/4/19 8:43 pm
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| Marriages in israel |
brotherjames |
| Still ruled by orthodox rabbinical standards under the law of Moses. Civil marriages are recognized however and some muslims practice polygamy. Biblical (Mosaic) law forbids intermarriage so while technically you could say that is racist, Israel is living to the standard set by God Himself. Is God a racist? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
9/5/19 5:52 am
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| Re: Marriages in israel |
Dave Dorsey |
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| Well 2 things |
brotherjames |
While Moses was married to zipporah a midianite, the law of course had not been given. 2. Ezra made all the intermarried israelites give up their non Hebrew wives.
And asking if God was / is a racist was tongue in cheek. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
9/5/19 6:58 am
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Dave Dorsey |
Re: Ezra, one particular instance does not a doctrine make -- especially when the rest of Scripture is clear and unified on the subject.
We need to be careful about this for two reasons. First, because of the long history of racists trying to use the Bible to drive a wedge between races or prohibit interracial marriage as sinful. Second, because the message of the gospel is offensive enough without us adding man-made doctrines to it that could cause additional stumbling.
For these reasons it is critical that we be crystal clear: OT and NT prohibitions on intermarriage are purely theological/religious in nature, and absolutely are not racial.
Defending any kind of ban against interracial marriage (though I assume Israel's is theological/religious, not racial) by saying "well, they're just following the standard God set, is that racist?" is incorrect and unhelpful. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
9/5/19 7:11 am
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| Dave |
brotherjames |
| Israel does have an intermarriage ban based upon religious beliefs, OT. Some people might still call that racist even though it is not and Israel is pretty diverse in its society at large. Ezra's is hardly the only instance of that OT decree as you surely know. And I reiterate I was being sarcastic in asking if God is a racist although there are surely some in this crazy woke world who might claim He is. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
9/5/19 7:53 am
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| Re: Dave |
Dave Dorsey |
| brotherjames wrote: | | Ezra's is hardly the only instance of that OT decree as you surely know. |
No. There are no instances of prohibition on interracial marriage anywhere in the Bible. Ezra's example is the one example that comes closest, but a careful review will show that even in that unique, extreme circumstance the prohibition was still religious rather than racial.
https://www.christiantoday.com/article/which-bible-book-bans-interracial-marriage-and-why/99821.htm
I'm not just trying to pick at you. This is important. With respect, you should stop conflating interracial marriage with religious/theological intermarriage because doing so is errant and dangerous. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
9/5/19 8:37 am
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| Dave, not sure what you are saying |
brotherjames |
Of course the prohibition against intermarriage was religious. It was a commandment of Almighty God after all. The problem is, whether you and I see it as religious, others will not. It will be seen as racial. Which is why Resident Skeptic asked the question initially. It is not racial, it is also OT and of course does not apply to us but there are many references against it beyond Ezra. See below.
Deu 7:2-5Â And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Â (3)Â Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. Â (4)Â For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. Â (5)Â But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.
Jos 23:11-12Â Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the LORD your God. Â (12)Â Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you:
Jdg 3:5-8Â And the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, Hittites, and Amorites, and Perizzites, and Hivites, and Jebusites: Â (6)Â And they took their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters to their sons, and served their gods. Â (7)Â And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and forgat the LORD their God, and served Baalim and the groves. Â ( Â Therefore the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he sold them into the hand of Chushanrishathaim king of Mesopotamia: and the children of Israel served Chushanrishathaim eight years.
1Ki 11:1-6Â But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites; Â (2)Â Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love. Â (3)Â And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart. Â (4)Â For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father. Â (5)Â For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. Â (6)Â And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
Neh 13:24-27Â And their children spake half in the speech of Ashdod, and could not speak in the Jews' language, but according to the language of each people. Â (25)Â And I contended with them, and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, Ye shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves. Â (26)Â Did not Solomon king of Israel sin by these things? yet among many nations was there no king like him, who was beloved of his God, and God made him king over all Israel: nevertheless even him did outlandish women cause to sin. Â (27)Â Shall we then hearken unto you to do all this great evil, to transgress against our God in marrying strange wives?
Maybe I am obtuse but I am not concerned here with how the world sees this and I repeat that God is not racial (Is God a racist) but He had a purpose for Israel to remain pure. The nation of Israel is still living under the law. But, that doesn't make them racist. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
9/5/19 2:40 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
I've been responding to your statement that someone could "technically [say]" the biblical prohibition on religious intermarriage was racist. To suggest someone could say something technically implies that the statement is truthful in a technical or certain way. That, of course, is absolutely not true: it is not technically true, or any other kind of true, to suggest the Bible prohibits or has ever prohibited interracial marriage, or that the biblical prohibition on religious intermarriage has a racial element to it.
If you weren't saying that it was "technically true" that the biblical prohibition against intermarriage could be racist, or that the biblical prohibition on religious intermarriage has a racial element, then we're probably on the same page.
I agree that the world is likely to call out the biblical prohibition on religious intermarriage as racist. If the world is going to accuse something biblical of being racist, what I am saying is that it is is all the more important to ensure we are being accurate and precise in our presentation and defense of that doctrine.
God did have a purpose to keep His chosen nation pure, and He continues to have that purpose in His church. Hopefully you understand why it is incredibly important to make sure this purity is never understood as being racial in nature. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
9/5/19 3:39 pm
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| Re: Dave |
Resident Skeptic |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | brotherjames wrote: | | Ezra's is hardly the only instance of that OT decree as you surely know. |
No. There are no instances of prohibition on interracial marriage anywhere in the Bible. Ezra's example is the one example that comes closest, but a careful review will show that even in that unique, extreme circumstance the prohibition was still religious rather than racial.
https://www.christiantoday.com/article/which-bible-book-bans-interracial-marriage-and-why/99821.htm
I'm not just trying to pick at you. This is important. With respect, you should stop conflating interracial marriage with religious/theological intermarriage because doing so is errant and dangerous. |
According to Wikipedia, Israeli law forbids marriage between ethnic Jews and Jewish converts of other races. But again, I agree that this is unbiblical.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
9/5/19 4:14 pm
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| Re: Dave |
Dave Dorsey |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | According to Wikipedia, Israeli law forbids marriage between ethnic Jews and Jewish converts of other races. But again, I agree that this is unbiblical. |
Wow, I didn't know that. I'd have to read more about it, but yeah, that sounds pretty sketchy. And as you pointed out, definitely not in keeping with any biblical command. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
9/5/19 4:18 pm
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| Re: Dave |
Resident Skeptic |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | According to Wikipedia, Israeli law forbids marriage between ethnic Jews and Jewish converts of other races. But again, I agree that this is unbiblical. |
Wow, I didn't know that. I'd have to read more about it, but yeah, that sounds pretty sketchy. And as you pointed out, definitely not in keeping with any biblical command. |
Are we sure that God's covenant with the Jews was based on religion and not race? After all, God chose a man, BEFORE the Law, and ordained that his descendants would be His chosen people/nation. I see evidence to support both arguments.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
9/7/19 1:27 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
I think it's a mistake to say God's election of Israel was based on race, yes. For the most part they all shared a race as descendants of Abraham, but consider Esau and his descendants. The Edomites could trace their lineage directly back to Abraham, in fact from Esau they only had to go back two generations. Israel and Edom shared the same race. They had the same father and lived in the same home. But one was chosen and one was not. One was loved and one was hated.
See also Romans 9:6-8. How is it possible that God's promise to Abraham concerning his descendants could, seemingly, not be completely true? "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.†This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
9/7/19 2:23 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | I think it's a mistake to say God's election of Israel was based on race, yes. For the most part they all shared a race as descendants of Abraham, but consider Esau and his descendants. The Edomites could trace their lineage directly back to Abraham, in fact from Esau they only had to go back two generations. Israel and Edom shared the same race. They had the same father and lived in the same home. But one was chosen and one was not. One was loved and one was hated.
See also Romans 9:6-8. How is it possible that God's promise to Abraham concerning his descendants could, seemingly, not be completely true? "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.†This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." |
I think Romans 9:6-8 does show a strong case for "fulfillment theology" (not "replacement theology"). Romans 3 also bears this out referring to one who is a Jew INWARDLY. Yet, Talmudic Judaism is about as racist as it gets. Many famous Jews of modern times get way with saying to abhorrently racist things.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
9/7/19 3:25 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
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Resident Skeptic |
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| Israel a Racist State? NO! |
spartanfan |
| No way. It is not a racist state. Israel makes it a point to allow those of other nationalities/cultures/religions to operate peaceably within her boarders. They allow Christians and Muslims on the Temple Mount within their country. Have Arab quarters/Armenian quarters/Christians quarters/ also in the Old City. Even have Palestinean neighborhoods and cities and Druid cities in their country. And that's not to mention they allow the Palestineans to have their own land within their land - so they can fire rockets and send drones carrying fire into their forests and fields. I'd say they are more tolerant than we would be in our country (well, some of us). Now that doesn't mean that they don't have a lot of racists in their land - maybe on the same level as we do in the USA. But as far as being a racist state - no way. Remember, most of Israel is very secular (lots of athiests and agnostics) and the hard-liners (practicing Orthodox) are in the minority by far. So as far as a Racist state - no. More embracing,accepting and tolerant than most for sure. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3638
9/7/19 8:29 pm
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| Re: Israel a Racist State? NO! |
Resident Skeptic |
| spartanfan wrote: | | No way. It is not a racist state. Israel makes it a point to allow those of other nationalities/cultures/religions to operate peaceably within her boarders. They allow Christians and Muslims on the Temple Mount within their country. Have Arab quarters/Armenian quarters/Christians quarters/ also in the Old City. Even have Palestinean neighborhoods and cities and Druid cities in their country. And that's not to mention they allow the Palestineans to have their own land within their land - so they can fire rockets and send drones carrying fire into their forests and fields. I'd say they are more tolerant than we would be in our country (well, some of us). Now that doesn't mean that they don't have a lot of racists in their land - maybe on the same level as we do in the USA. But as far as being a racist state - no way. Remember, most of Israel is very secular (lots of athiests and agnostics) and the hard-liners (practicing Orthodox) are in the minority by far. So as far as a Racist state - no. More embracing,accepting and tolerant than most for sure. |
I agree. Sometimes titles and labels can be misleading. Certainly, racism exists in Israel. But that does not make it a racist "state".
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI
Last edited by Resident Skeptic on 9/9/19 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
9/7/19 8:32 pm
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