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WNC's Step of "Faith"
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Post WNC's Step of "Faith" Horse Sense
From a recent announcement from the WNC State Office:

Quote:
FULL-TIME STATE USA MISSIONS DIRECTOR – The State Council also moved Matt Gunter from an interim position as State USA Missions Director to full-time status, effective September 1. The ministry demands of this office and the need for evangelism, church planting and church revitalization across this state necessitated this decision. This was a step of faith on the part of the state overseer, state council and Matt and his family. Although the tithe fund receipts still cannot support the cost of a full-time position, the council voted to designate the receipts from the sale of disbanded churches up to $1,000,000 for evangelism in WNC. This is a huge investment in the future of the state. No operational funds are being used to fund this endeavor, so the tithe fund can continue to support the state office operations and the Gateway Retreat Center maintenance.


Just a few questions:
The article states: "This was a step of faith on the part of the state overseer, state council and Matt and his family. Although the tithe fund receipts still cannot support the cost of a full-time position, the council voted to designate the receipts from the sale of disbanded churches up to $1,000,000 for evangelism in WNC."

-So, should pastors in WNC be concerned that, when funds run out to pay the USA Mission Director, their church will be next on the auction block?
-Who determines which churches are closed and sold to fund this salary?
-Have there already been receipts of $1 million from sold churches? If not, who's next to bring us to that number?
-Did the ministers of WNC not vote a few years ago to have one man fill both roles of YD and ED? Does their preference no longer count? Does the State Council have the authority to override the voice of the state ministers?

Finally, it is my understanding that ALL monies from the sale of church properties is to be used for church planting. This is in accordance with General Assembly Minutes. I think it is a tremendous stretch to call a paying an ED salary "church planting".
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8/5/19 12:04 pm


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Post diakoneo
Where is your faith man???

Do you not believe WNC will close enough churches to keep it going Question

Just say to this church be removed and be cast into the sea of forgetfulness, never to be remembered again...

and of course they don't need the pastors of the churches to make these decisions Shocked
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8/5/19 1:55 pm


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Post Dean Steenburgh
In my understanding, a step of faith is where you have "no idea" where the resources are coming from because you're stepping out in faith for God to provide.
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8/5/19 3:15 pm


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Post Da Sheik
diakoneo wrote:
Where is your faith man???

Do you not believe WNC will close enough churches to keep it going Question
Shocked


Thank you for that! Laughing
Much needed comic relief on a Monday
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8/5/19 4:41 pm


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Post Cojak
Maybe the step of faith is that NC would once again grow to the point it was at one time with the planting of new churches.

Many folk in NC were against dividing the state years ago. One rational at the time it was the distance that folk from the coast area to travel to camp meeting and summer Bible School. Since Camp Meeting is really no longer a problem, and we have no 'BIBLE SCHOOL' per say, maybe combining the East and West again and eliminating a few salaries would pay for three Home Missions positions and really do something?

That is off point, but I do wonder about the present 'funds' to pay salaries and plants. Three or four good plants could eat up the mil in a short time. We are supposed to have some wise council members and we do have a good Overseer, surely they have thought this all through without submitting an explanation to the many ? points. Cool
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8/5/19 4:42 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
Perhaps the TOT should be reduced again if a state thinks it has the money (on faith) to hire a full time director - AFTER - the state ministers voted to combine the two offices (ED and YD) into one?!?!?!? Am I the only one that sees this?

This is the same kind of thinking that got us into all these paid state and general office jobs that the rank and file churches voted to eliminate - not propagate.
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8/5/19 6:19 pm


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Post diakoneo
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
Perhaps the TOT should be reduced again if a state thinks it has the money (on faith) to hire a full time director - AFTER - the state ministers voted to combine the two offices (ED and YD) into one?!?!?!? Am I the only one that sees this?

This is the same kind of thinking that got us into all these paid state and general office jobs that the rank and file churches voted to eliminate - not propagate.


Yep!
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8/5/19 8:51 pm


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Post Carolyn Smith
One of the other reasons they voted to divide the state back in the 80s was because there was something like 400 ministers on the books and well over 200 churches (though I am not sure of that number.) Point being, there was a lot that needed overseeing and there was no idea that ECBC would be closed down.

Now that the state has been divided for 35 years, it seems doubtful to me that they would reunite them, especially when they are both considered strong "states" in the COG.

It is my understanding that they have already had to close many churches in WNC. It really doesn't make sense that they would hire someone with the idea of closing churches if they need more $ for his support.
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8/6/19 6:01 am


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Post diakoneo
Carolyn Smith wrote:
It really doesn't make sense that they would hire someone with the idea of closing churches if they need more $ for his support.


It also doesn't make sense to not allow pastors of the state to vote on this issue. Seems the pastors voted to do away with a position and it was put back in via the backdoor. There vote would have even more relevance given that closed churches would be the source of income for the new position.

Understand, I don't bemoan the position or the need. I believe there probably is a need for it, but the method and means should be called into question.

Seriously, everything in this situation could be done with the utmost of care and uprightness, but why start down this road?


It seems to me that "small" churches in the Church of God have been boiled down to buildings and dollar bills. Administrative Bishops have become just and only that. Bishops of Administration. I think if they got back to being pastors, not just of other pastors but of the people in the state, perhaps we would see less attrition and that would make a good start! Yes, I know he can't be every members pastor but there are mega church pastors who pastor more people than many state ABs...
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8/6/19 7:59 am


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Post Re: WNC's Step of "Faith" skinnybishop
Horse Sense wrote:
From a recent announcement from the WNC State Office:

Quote:
FULL-TIME STATE USA MISSIONS DIRECTOR – The State Council also moved Matt Gunter from an interim position as State USA Missions Director to full-time status, effective September 1. The ministry demands of this office and the need for evangelism, church planting and church revitalization across this state necessitated this decision. This was a step of faith on the part of the state overseer, state council and Matt and his family. Although the tithe fund receipts still cannot support the cost of a full-time position, the council voted to designate the receipts from the sale of disbanded churches up to $1,000,000 for evangelism in WNC. This is a huge investment in the future of the state. No operational funds are being used to fund this endeavor, so the tithe fund can continue to support the state office operations and the Gateway Retreat Center maintenance.


Just a few questions:
The article states: "This was a step of faith on the part of the state overseer, state council and Matt and his family. Although the tithe fund receipts still cannot support the cost of a full-time position, the council voted to designate the receipts from the sale of disbanded churches up to $1,000,000 for evangelism in WNC."

-So, should pastors in WNC be concerned that, when funds run out to pay the USA Mission Director, their church will be next on the auction block?
-Who determines which churches are closed and sold to fund this salary?
-Have there already been receipts of $1 million from sold churches? If not, who's next to bring us to that number?
-Did the ministers of WNC not vote a few years ago to have one man fill both roles of YD and ED? Does their preference no longer count? Does the State Council have the authority to override the voice of the state ministers?

Finally, it is my understanding that ALL monies from the sale of church properties is to be used for church planting. This is in accordance with General Assembly Minutes. I think it is a tremendous stretch to call a paying an ED salary "church planting".


It seems a little unusual to fund a position from the sale of disbanded churches. As mentioned, I thought we passed a measure at the GA, that required those funds to be used for church planting.
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8/6/19 8:19 am


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Post Re: WNC's Step of "Faith" Cojak
skinnybishop wrote:
...

It seems a little unusual to fund a position from the sale of disbanded churches. As mentioned, I thought we passed a measure at the GA, that required those funds to be used for church planting.


This is one of the things that can be explained as: The salary is for a man who will be in charge of 'Planting churches". I am assuming the council felt that this was in keeping with the GA ruling or guidelines.
It could also be a good spin. BUT I am hoping there is a planned path for the new position. WAYS to plant that works.

Some of our most successful churches were founded by a 'called' minister and the spouse, who worked, supported themselves and won enough people to 'start' a church, normally in their home.

Things change, life goes on and that is in the rear view mirror. Today we are a forward looking people and things are different. Maybe(?) this will be the best way, I pray that we actually do plant in WNC, we have definitely closed a few. Embarassed
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8/6/19 8:57 am


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Post Re: WNC's Step of "Faith" skinnybishop
Cojak wrote:
skinnybishop wrote:
...

It seems a little unusual to fund a position from the sale of disbanded churches. As mentioned, I thought we passed a measure at the GA, that required those funds to be used for church planting.


This is one of the things that can be explained as: The salary is for a man who will be in charge of 'Planting churches". I am assuming the council felt that this was in keeping with the GA ruling or guidelines.
It could also be a good spin. BUT I am hoping there is a planned path for the new position. WAYS to plant that works.

Some of our most successful churches were founded by a 'called' minister and the spouse, who worked, supported themselves and won enough people to 'start' a church, normally in their home.

Things change, life goes on and that is in the rear view mirror. Today we are a forward looking people and things are different. Maybe(?) this will be the best way, I pray that we actually do plant in WNC, we have definitely closed a few. :oops:


I need to go back and check the Minutes to see exactly how it was worded. I was thinking the measure said the funds were to be used "directly" for planting churches.
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8/6/19 9:36 am


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Post Cojak
I did not get the impression that the salary would be coming from the 'closing' of churches. But it could be taken that way.

Note on closing churches. I am a believer in the older small churches. Ones that some say, and actually are dying. But since those members have paid for that church and can still keep the utilities and maintenance up to date, I think the church should remain open, not matter the value of the property. As long as the core is paying their way, they need a church to attend until they die without being told you need to drive a few extra miles to attend xyz church.

I know there are other opinions, but at least that is mine. Embarassed
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8/9/19 7:17 pm


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Post Re: WNC's Step of "Faith" Richard L Shores
Horse Sense wrote:
-Did the ministers of WNC not vote a few years ago to have one man fill both roles of YD and ED?

Does their preference no longer count?

Does the State Council have the authority to override the voice of the state ministers?


I wondered the same thing.
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8/12/19 9:42 am


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Post Da Sheik
Quote:
FULL-TIME STATE USA MISSIONS DIRECTOR – The State Council also moved Matt Gunter from an interim position as State USA Missions Director to full-time status, effective September 1. The ministry demands of this office and the need for evangelism, church planting and church revitalization across this state necessitated this decision. This was a step of faith on the part of the state overseer, state council and Matt and his family. Although the tithe fund receipts still cannot support the cost of a full-time position, the council voted to designate the receipts from the sale of disbanded churches up to $1,000,000 for evangelism in WNC. This is a huge investment in the future of the state. No operational funds are being used to fund this endeavor, so the tithe fund can continue to support the state office operations and the Gateway Retreat Center maintenance.


You guys can protest if you want to, but the way I see this worded it will fall on deaf ears. I guess I would like to know specifically what the new director will be doing to promote revitalization and planting. We like to talk in platitudes but give us some particulars. I happen to be a part of a parachurch ministry that helps with revitalization. From what I've seen, most state offices have absolutely no clue as to how to undertake a revitalization effort. And as for church planting, the conventional wisdom seems to be "if you plant it, they will come".
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8/12/19 11:38 am


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Post diakoneo
Da Sheik wrote:
Quote:
FULL-TIME STATE USA MISSIONS DIRECTOR – The State Council also moved Matt Gunter from an interim position as State USA Missions Director to full-time status, effective September 1. The ministry demands of this office and the need for evangelism, church planting and church revitalization across this state necessitated this decision. This was a step of faith on the part of the state overseer, state council and Matt and his family. Although the tithe fund receipts still cannot support the cost of a full-time position, the council voted to designate the receipts from the sale of disbanded churches up to $1,000,000 for evangelism in WNC. This is a huge investment in the future of the state. No operational funds are being used to fund this endeavor, so the tithe fund can continue to support the state office operations and the Gateway Retreat Center maintenance.


You guys can protest if you want to, but the way I see this worded it will fall on deaf ears. I guess I would like to know specifically what the new director will be doing to promote revitalization and planting. We like to talk in platitudes but give us some particulars. I happen to be a part of a parachurch ministry that helps with revitalization. From what I've seen, most state offices have absolutely no clue as to how to undertake a revitalization effort. And as for church planting, the conventional wisdom seems to be "if you plant it, they will come".


Where are the boundaries for the AB/Overseer and State Council?

Is there any recourse?
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8/12/19 12:54 pm


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Post Cojak
Da Sheik wrote:
... I happen to be a part of a parachurch ministry that helps with revitalization. From what I've seen, most state offices have absolutely no clue as to how to undertake a revitalization effort. And as for church planting, the conventional wisdom seems to be "if you plant it, they will come".


As a rule I agree, I just hope we are an exception! Embarassed Embarassed Time will certainly tell. Idea
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9/8/19 10:23 pm


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Post Cojak
Thinking a little more, , most admins see throwing money at a problem solves it. In rare cases that is true! Embarassed
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9/8/19 10:26 pm


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Post WNC Step of Faith - MI6
In my opinion - The WNC AB has a plan to finance this project.
In my opinion - This is not an Act of Faith or an Act of Stupidity.
In my opinion - There is not 1 State Office that takes a Step of Faith.
In my opinion - Every State Office Leadership Team (The AB or State Council) Has a PLAN and does not operate without a PLAN and they VOTE on a PLAN.

In my opinion - Many people in the COG are looking the other way and really do not care what happens - as long as it does not impact them personally.


Last edited by MI6 on 9/29/19 8:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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9/9/19 10:33 am


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Post sheepdogandy
Centralized government, you gotta love it. Laughing
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