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Nature Boy Florida |
Jesus was silent - does it mean he is complicit?
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Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
8/16/19 6:51 am
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| Silence |
theedmister |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | Jesus was silent - does it mean he is complicit? |
I wonder if the silence (no answer yet, or at least avoiding it by restating an obvious question) here is also complicity? hum |
Friendly Face
Posts: 231
8/16/19 8:23 am
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Dave Dorsey |
Are you guys seriously asking me if I think Jesus was complicit in Herod's sin because he was silent?
Read the line that Tom quoted again:
"Silence, of course, can be wisdom. But it can also be complicity."
There is a spectrum of silence from wisdom to complicity. This concerns everything, including Trump.
No - I do not believe Jesus was complicit in sin. (Did I really need to say that?)
Yes - I do believe pro-Trump evangelicalism is complicit in Trump's wickedness to varying degrees. |
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Posts: 13654
8/16/19 8:26 am
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Dave Dorsey |
"What constitutes wisdom and what constitutes simplicity?" <<< this could have been a great conversation
"hurr durr is Jesus a sinner?" <<< you guys can have this one on your own |
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Posts: 13654
8/16/19 8:38 am
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| Better option? |
famousflavius |
| Is there a better option who will be open for Christian leaders to come into the Whitehouse and pray? Is ther a better option who will stand up for the unborn? Is there a better option who will be pro Israel? Is ther a better option who will fight for America and the laws of the land? Is there a better option who will say Merry Christmas and not cower in fear to the Atheists? Who is your better option? |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2447
8/16/19 8:40 am
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| Re: Better option? |
Dave Dorsey |
| famousflavius wrote: | | Is there a better option who will be open for Christian leaders to come into the Whitehouse and pray? Is ther a better option who will stand up for the unborn? Is there a better option who will be pro Israel? Is ther a better option who will fight for America and the laws of the land? Is there a better option who will say Merry Christmas and not cower in fear to the Atheists? Who is your better option? |
False dichotomy. Evangelicals could vote for Trump as the lesser of two evils without being complicit in his sin by openly celebrating policies and antichristian character that they should be able to recognize as wicked and deserving of biblical rebuke.
Guys - I'm done. If you want to interpret that as cowardice, please feel free, but we're not going to have a meeting of the minds here so we might as well just let it go and talk about things we can hold in common. |
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Posts: 13654
8/16/19 8:44 am
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| Re: Better option? |
Nature Boy Florida |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | famousflavius wrote: | | Is there a better option who will be open for Christian leaders to come into the Whitehouse and pray? Is ther a better option who will stand up for the unborn? Is there a better option who will be pro Israel? Is ther a better option who will fight for America and the laws of the land? Is there a better option who will say Merry Christmas and not cower in fear to the Atheists? Who is your better option? |
False dichotomy. Evangelicals could vote for Trump as the lesser of two evils without being complicit in his sin by openly celebrating policies and antichristian character that they should be able to recognize as wicked and deserving of biblical rebuke.
Guys - I'm done. If you want to interpret that as cowardice, please feel free, but we're not going to have a meeting of the minds here so we might as well just let it go and talk about things we can hold in common. |
Very sorry you don't want to engage when everybody doesn't accept your premise. I support Trump and have never " openly celebrat(ed) policies and antichristian character"...and I am tired of you clowns that say that I do. But thank you for pointing out that silence doesn't mean complicity.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
8/16/19 9:35 am
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| No better option. |
famousflavius |
| My point being, There is no better option right now. One consolation for me is that Mike Pence is at the ready should some calamity occur. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2447
8/16/19 9:40 am
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| Re: Better option? |
Dave Dorsey |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | Very sorry you don't want to engage when everybody doesn't accept your premise. I support Trump and have never " openly celebrat(ed) policies and antichristian character"...and I am tired of you clowns that say that I do. But thank you for pointing out that silence doesn't mean complicity. |
Probably wouldn't mind if it wasn't so exhausting.
I never said you did any of that. I said "evangelicals" specifically to use a very general term. I don't believe you do that, nor do I believe that of most others on this forum do.
The trustless engagement gets so tiring and old. I'm probably a contributor to that, but I don't want to be anymore. |
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Posts: 13654
8/16/19 9:46 am
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Cojak |
Fact of life, Christians have not always completely agreed with each other. That is what I have appreciated about this forum. Even if we do not come to an agreement we are still part of HIS Kingdom. Opinions are like the nose (a better part of the anatomy) every one has one but we all do not like prefer same scents. My wife gets sick with some perfumes, but loves Chanel #5. It makes a friend of hers nauseous, so she never wears it when they plan to meet.
I am glad you guys stick around, even those who tone it down, still know how to sharpen their knife when necessary. OUCH!
I had two BILs, very good men, both Democrats (not at all unusual in our town) I was closer to them than my own brothers we seldom discussed politics but when we did we would finally agree to disagree. They never knew the Democratic party had left them back in 1954.
Anyway, God bless you all. I never fail to learn something in these heated discussions. I must admit there are good points on all sides or my brothers would not see some good there. 
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Posts: 24275
8/16/19 10:13 am
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| Dave a question..... |
caseyleejones |
When you say Trump's wickedness, what examples are you referring to?
I am a Trump supporter and he will get my vote. But that is because his actions for this country closely align with the Word than any other potus I can remember. Are his personal actions a problem....yes and I don't mind saying so.
By the way, this is not a pile on.
I will finish with this....Obama will look like a choir boy when the dems get the WH. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11791
8/16/19 8:12 pm
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| Re: Dave a question..... |
diakoneo |
| caseyleejones wrote: | When you say Trump's wickedness, what examples are you referring to?
I am a Trump supporter and he will get my vote. But that is because his actions for this country closely align with the Word than any other potus I can remember. Are his personal actions a problem....yes and I don't mind saying so.
By the way, this is not a pile on.
I will finish with this....Obama will look like a choir boy when the dems get the WH. |
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Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
8/16/19 8:46 pm
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Tom Sterbens |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Tom: Is your question to me, "Do you believe Jesus was complicit in Herod's wickedness?" |
That wasn't what I said/asked...but then, I probably could of worded it better regardless. 
What I should have written was: Based on the premise of the article would the same not be true of Jesus regarding His silence about Herod. John's beheaded for the sake of entertainment and yet from Jesus there is not a word.
Thanks. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4507
8/16/19 11:04 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
Tom, that's a really good question and a challenging thought. Obviously I would say that Jesus' silence falls in the wisdom category, rather than the complicity category.
But how, and why -- that is a good question. If you want to discuss, shoot me an email (daveddorsey (at) gmail.com) and we can. I don't have a quick answer, but I would love to explore it with you. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
8/17/19 4:25 am
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Tom Sterbens |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | Tom, that's a really good question and a challenging thought. Obviously I would say that Jesus' silence falls in the wisdom category, rather than the complicity category.
But how, and why -- that is a good question. If you want to discuss, shoot me an email (daveddorsey (at) gmail.com) and we can. I don't have a quick answer, but I would love to explore it with you. |
Right now I think (which could change ) that the "silence" we talk about may be a misread of sorts.
I have always been curious about what Jesus addressed and did not address...and with Paul as well. Certainly many, many others have mused over the same thing.
I think Jesus came with the absolute view to the economy of human existence (a gross understatement) and on that basis simply does not become engaged in what we may otherwise see as critical matters of social justice. I have said for years that Jesus did not come primarily to stem the tide of social realities...but rather, to pluck people from that tidal surge - one at a time. One of the clearest refutations of human solicitation for Him to engage the sociopolitical affairs of mankind happens in John 6 and 7 (which is again, well known...).
And while I do not seek to make Donald Trump any sort of would-be Messiah - I do think his leadership has brought changes that serve the ultimate interests of everyone at least from an economic standpoint.
That being said - I do not believe there is any final solution for the sociopolitical ills of mankind prior to the full eschatological realization of the order brought through the fulfillment of The Kingdom on Earth at the end of the age. An inaugurated eschatology would seem to suggest a sort managed misery until that time!
Liberation Theology seems to equate ecclesiastical legitimacy to the direct level of engagement with, and war against, the expressions of perceived utilitarian political and social of oppression and disregard of the poor and disenfranchised. However, that final governmental and sociological resolution will only be fulfilled in the final solution brought by Jesus Christ at the end of the age.
And what I just wrote does express an apathetic approach to the pain of human suffering and the poor in particular. I will indeed work against it... BUT...I will not make the mistake of thinking that the Redemption which can only be brought the entry Kingdom of God can somehow be accomplished through the "kingdoms of this world."
Trump indeed says some really dumb and divisive things.
I also think what he does (particularly through social media) is intuitively strategic in terms of keeping his detractors off balance. But at the same time, I do not think they are biblical methods of redemptive leadership.
On the other hand - he also says some incredibly pragmatic and very true things.
Just thinking out loud...and will probably be sorry I hit the "submit" button!
I've never written or said publicly much of what I've just written here! |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4507
8/19/19 12:41 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
Tom - I think you make some great points at all levels. I would for sure agree there is strategic utility to Trump's social media approach, and would likewise agree that it is not redemptive leadership. That is part of what makes it so frustrating to me to see believers embracing the approach for the sake of the results without realizing what is being compromised by the process.
I also broadly agree with the eschatological lens of your post, which is not surprising since I know we hold the same views on the significance of inaugurated eschatology. (G. K. Beale for president!)
I'd love to dig into this further. I have always held a great deal of respect for you and I think that sometimes when considering the structure of my replies in the context of how they will be seen by others watching the discussion (and considering points of attack that I might receive from others, though I am writing replies to you), I have not always adequately expressed the respect that I hold for you. Shoot me an email if you'd like and let's break bread! |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
8/19/19 12:56 pm
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Tom Sterbens |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | Tom - I think you make some great points at all levels. I would for sure agree there is strategic utility to Trump's social media approach, and would likewise agree that it is not redemptive leadership. That is part of what makes it so frustrating to me to see believers embracing the approach for the sake of the results without realizing what is being compromised by the process.
I also broadly agree with the eschatological lens of your post, which is not surprising since I know we hold the same views on the significance of inaugurated eschatology. (G. K. Beale for president!)
I'd love to dig into this further. I have always held a great deal of respect for you and I think that sometimes when considering the structure of my replies in the context of how they will be seen by others watching the discussion (and considering points of attack that I might receive from others, though I am writing replies to you), I have not always adequately expressed the respect that I hold for you. Shoot me an email if you'd like and let's break bread! |
Kind words!...that made my heart smile (and my face)!
I have forgotten where you live...and you axed you Facebook account so I couldn't refresh that point of knowledge! Anyway - thinking you're NOT close (re: breaking bread). |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4507
8/19/19 2:04 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | believers embracing the approach for the sake of the results |
There you go again.
I don't know of one Christian or even one so-called Christian that has EMBRACED TRUMPS APPROACH. Why do you insist - that we embrace Trumps approach?
We like the results. The approach is crazy.
How many times must it be stated? What is the driving force that makes you continually state things like this?
Keep in mind of course - that he is batting maybe 30% on the things I wish a President would do...but that is multiple times better than Bush or Obama.
OH, I will join you and Tom in breaking bread to keep you in line - as long as you are buying - and we are going to Ruth's Chris steakhouse.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
8/19/19 3:13 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
Has anyone considered how harsh the Apostles were at times as recorded in Acts? I dare say Dave would be slamming them if they were among us today.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
8/22/19 5:27 am
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Dow Moses |
I was a very reluctant Trumper. I felt he was another Clinton as far as moral low ground. I was not interested in voting for him, but did only as a vote against Hillary. I believe both was the bottom of the run morally and very self serving.
I cringe every time I hear Christians talking about his Christianity while he is cruising and call people names. I like his push to rebuild American manufacturing job. I agree with much of his political views, but i hate many of his actions. I find it hard seeing a Democratic I could support, but still
Not excited about supporting Trump. I could support him much more it he quit talking to much.
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DOW MOSES |
Friendly Face
Posts: 100
9/1/19 2:56 pm
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