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MI6

Disprove Calvinism with Scritpure

Friendly Face Posts: 140 **6/15/19 1:51 pm**

Predestination Salvation and Eternal Security are the foundation doctrines of Calvinism.

Please provide Scriptural Proof that these Doctrines are wrong.

Da Sheik

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1860 **6/15/19 3:28 pm**

My only real issue with Calvinism is the Limited Atonement part of TULIP. I think there is substantial proof for the other tenets. There are verses on both sides that neither want to consider. But if I have to err, I would rather err on the side of the Sovereignty of God. I donâ€™t have time to really develop this right now, but Iâ€™m glad you started the discussion.

Aaron Scott

God is not willing that ANY should perish....

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6032 **6/15/19 5:44 pm**

If so, then double predestination wonâ€™t fly very easily. And while that may not be enough to defeat every element of TULIP, it does enough to not allow it to stand intact.

Calvinism is also predicated on Original Sin,but while there are some verses that have led people to Original Sin, it is an extrapolation, not a clear statement of doctrine.

Dave Dorsey

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/15/19 6:03 pm**

I'm personally not a fan of internet debates about doctrinal disagreements within the family of faith, so while I probably won't be participating much here I am also glad at the prospect of seeing serious theological discussion on Acts.

That said, there are two books I'd highly recommend to anyone who wants to go beyond shallow proof-texting and think seriously and deeply about the ordo salutis and the working of regeneration in Christians. Those books are "For Calvinism" by Michael Horton, and "Against Calvinism" by Roger Olson.

Dr. Horton and Dr. Olson are both extraordinarily writers, scholars, and men of God. And while these books are not dueling, so to speak, they are designed as companion works and each book features a foreword written by the other's author.

Most important of all, Horton and Olson demonstrate that two people can have VERY strong views about Calvinism and Arminianism and can emphatically disagree with each other while still walking together in great love, friendship, and Christian unity.

Dave Dorsey

Re: God is not willing that ANY should perish....

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/15/19 6:54 pm**

Aaron Scott

Dave...you mean my argument is not original?

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6032 **6/15/19 8:13 pm**

Joking.

Of course others have made the argument! And every single one of them was right.

To say it was written to Christians is to say, in so many words, "Those of you who are not going to perish (since you are Christians)...God is not willing that you perish." Clearly, that is a senseless statement, very close to a tautology.

Here's the thing:. Anyone who is determined to hold to Calvinism will reject any argument to the contrary. But having debated this sort of thing for 30 years, I became convinced that while elements of Calvinism have value, there is simply no way it holds up under the numerous issues that scriptures raise against it.

Further, it does not hold up well morally. It's not a slam dunk, but it is very difficult to think of God as good when He determines to send someone to hell before they are even born.

Dave Dorsey

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/15/19 8:18 pm**

Okay. Guess it's just that simple, then. Smile

sheepdogandy

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 7302 **6/16/19 9:13 am**

Having been born and raised in a very stout Southern Baptist community.

Having heard "once saved, always saved" all of my life.

Having debated the issue on numerous occasions.

I just tell 'em to read the book of Hebrews.

If they don't get it, I can't help 'em.
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God

www.spwc.church

MI6

Scriptural Proof Against Calvinism...

Friendly Face Posts: 140 **6/16/19 3:37 pm**

1. Hebrews 6:4-8 - For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2. Hebrews 10:26-34 - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

3. 2 Peter 2:20-22 - For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

4. Specific Sins - "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9)
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19)

5. Matthew 7:21-23 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

6. 1 Corinthians 9:23-27 - And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway[adokimos (ad-ok'-ee-mos); unapproved, rejected; worthless (literally or morally):

7. Depart From the Faith - 1 Tim 4:1-3 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
Depart - aphistemi (af-is'-tay-mee); remove, instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.: (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

Repent â€“ 8. Revelations 2:5 - Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 3:2-3 - Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Aaron Scott

I just assume Calvinists are predestined to hell...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6032 **6/16/19 5:34 pm**

since they canâ€™t receive the truth that Calvinism is wrong.

Itâ€™s just me, but really, is ANYONE going to be surprised if there are no Calvinists that are saved? Not meâ€”besides, they deserve it for being Calvinists.

Remember how they think they are all that because...well, because they are Calvinists? Surely, if anything merits hell, thatâ€™s it.

Dave Dorsey

Re: I just assume Calvinists are predestined to hell...

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/16/19 5:56 pm**

Da Sheik

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1860 **6/17/19 11:30 am**

I could do a similar list of proof texts like MI6 has provided (he sure pulled a "gotcha" by asking a question he already knew the answers to Wink

) on the side of Calvinism but I won't. Cut & pasting proof texts becomes very cumbersome. Let's try looking at one verse at a time. Since you offered the book of Hebrews, let's look at the first one:

1. Hebrews 6:4-8 - For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

If you're going to use this as a proof that a person can lose their salvation, then you must be consistent. If this text is saying a person can lose their salvation due to sin then we must look at the word "impossible". Does that mean there is no hope for the backslider? Notice also the personal pronouns "those, they, them". Then the author switches gears and says:

Heb 6:9Â But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.Â

So what on the surface may seem as if the writer were trying to terrify the initial reader (and us) is actually the opposite. The writer was trying to encourage the believers to press on to maturity. When faced with really difficult passages like this (admittedly it is a sobering passage) it absolutely cannot be divorced from the entire context of the letter.

Dave Dorsey

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/17/19 11:49 am**

It should also be noted that the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is nothing like the southern baptist/IFB "raise your hand and repeat this prayer and your name will forever be written in the Lamb's book of life".

On the very outer surface they both affirm the notion that once someone is saved, they cannot lose that salvation. However, there are layers of context and caveat that make them completely dissimilar otherwise.

An understanding of the concept of the visible church vs. the invisible church is very important to properly interpreting and rightly dividing some of these passages. The doctrines of grace absolutely do not teach that someone who repeats a prayer, raises a hand, goes to an altar, or even walks with God's people for a time is and will always be saved.

Dave Dorsey

Here are some Calvinist proof texts to balance out the discussion

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/17/19 12:42 pm**

Reformed theology tends to be based more on examining the flow and argument of larger blocks of Scripture rather than citing a few verses in isolation to serve as proof texts.

Some good places to look for this would be Genesis 37-50; Exodus 4-14; Isaiah 40-48; John 6, 10-12, & 17; Romans 9-11; and Ephesians 1-2 & 4.

Some useful theological terms to understand for anyone interested in thinking more deeply about this topic: compatibilism, libertarian free will, visible church/invisible church, monergism, synergism

Something that's important for both Arminians AND Calvinists to affirm:

Our will is completely and totally in bondage to sin apart from God. We cannot and will not EVER choose God of our own free will, outside of His assistance. In Calvinist theology, this is addressed by God acting first. Regeneration is a sovereign act of His will based on His unconditional election, and once given a reborn heart and a reborn will, we both can and will choose Him. In Arminian theology, this is addressed by prevenient (or enabling) grace, in which God grants resistable grace to an unsaved person so that they are capable, by God's power, of escaping the bondage of their will to sin and choosing Christ.

However, in both systems of theology, our depravity is total and our wills are completely bound. We cannot and will not ever choose Him without His enabling grace. Some Arminians do not understand this, but for Arminianism to be orthodox and not Pelagian, this must be affirmed.

As always, Dr. Olson is an excellent source on this aspect of orthodox Arminianism. See the ninth paragraph here: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2014/10/arminian-theology-prevenient-grace-and-total-depravity-including-a-review-of-a-new-book-about-prevenient-grace/

Da Sheik

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1860 **6/17/19 1:59 pm**

Great points Dave!

Da Sheik

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1860 **6/20/19 3:49 pm**

Romans 9-11 had always been problematic for me as an Arminian, but I think John 6 was when the proverbial light bulb came on for me.

The Apostle Paul's conversion is also an excellent example of the sovereignty of God in salvation. He was on his way to kill Christians when God apprehended him!

Dave Dorsey

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/20/19 4:46 pm**

I always struggled with Romans 9-11 as well. My mother-in-law, whom I adore, left an abusive, legalistic Calvinist church with her family when my wife was a teenager, and she's always had a firm link in her mind between the ungodliness she experienced and the doctrines of grace in general. As I began to warm to the doctrines of grace 2-3 years ago, she and I would talk now and then. She's a wonderful, faithful believer and a diligent student of her Bible. I'd bring up Romans 9-11 and she'd tell me that was unconditional election, but it was election of nations rather than election of individuals.

But... nations are made up of individuals. Embarassed

I'm where Da Sheik is. I see strong biblical support for everything but limited atonement. In my opinion, limited atonement is an effort to account for the negative side of predestination. It's logical and coherent, but the problem is it's not stated in Scripture, and I do not believe we should fill the silent places of Scripture with philosophical or theological conjecture.

So from my perspective:

- Believers chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world? Check.

- Believers predestined according to His will? Check.

- Unbelievers predestined for eternal damnation? Uh, maybe? I don't know? Scripture doesn't say so we shouldn't either.

As one of my pastors once told me, "Doctrines like election and predestination are meant to give assurance of salvation, joy in adversity, and motivation for missions. They're not algorithms for decoding the actuarial tables of God's secret counsels."

Reformed believers too often participate in the latter when we should all be constrained to the former.

Dave Dorsey

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/21/19 1:14 pm**

Looks like it's just you and me here, Da Sheik.

MI6 is MIA. Laughing

brotherjames

That's because no one has the time to waste disproving tripe.

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **6/21/19 5:25 pm**

I thought you guys were cog not Southern Baptist. C'mon. Really?

Dave Dorsey

Re: That's because no one has the time to waste disproving tripe.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **6/22/19 1:06 pm**