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 If charismatic theology is legitimate... |
Dave Dorsey |
...then it makes sense that the devil would continually attack it by trying to water it down, muddy it up, confuse it, and distort it.
Some of us are real good about taking our cessationist brothers to task for watering it down.
Why aren't more of us concerned with the more dangerous attacks of muddying it, confusing it, and distorting it?
For the most part, the ministers and members of this forum do a good job taking the error to task in all its forms, IMO. But why aren't more people like that?
Why are there so many in our tribe who want to excuse, explain away, or deflect criticism from even the most outlandish and disturbing distortions of charismatic belief? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
6/6/19 6:17 am
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| Dave...consider |
Aaron Scott |
It wasn't too long ago that Pentecostals were considered weirdos, of the devil, outlandish, etc. It might be a carryover from those times. That is, we might be trying to avoid making hard claims about certain things, for we once were on the receiving end of such comments.
At the same time, I think there is a legitimate concern that we don't want to put God in OUR box. Yes, I am wonderfully comfortable with Pentecostalism, but might God do something that is a little "out-there" even for us? Sure.
At the same time, there are things that we cannot accept because of the scriptures...or because it is clearly at odds with out spirit. In such cases, we should speak out. But do so in live, since we COULD have the wrong interpretation of the scripture...and we COULD be wrong about what we feel in our spirit.
Speak, but speak with loving correction, for the most part. At other times, go in for the kill, so to speak. I am sure that MacArthur is absolutely certain that we are wrong and even of the devil. Yet he spoke out in a way that was not redemptive or corrective. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
6/6/19 11:00 am
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| There’s gross error here in my opinion.... |
caseyleejones |
Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!â€
I don’t have a lot of expendable time. I’ve been out of pocket from acts till recently, likely go back to hiding due to upcoming projects. I see error in just about every camp. God didn’t call me to spend my time correcting or exposing others. For one, you change very few peoples minds. Much of the outrage exhibited whether right or wrong changes little. It is a time waster for me. I have several upcoming projects that I am currently working on that are focused on God and people. He called me to follow him. So if I see something that doesn’t quite jive with me....follow him. Is it wrong for me to correct error when I see it? Depends. Just like FB can be a time waster, so can spending time seeing all the error and bringing it to light. If someone feels called to the area of correcting others, Godspeed. It’s not my calling at this time in my life. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11794
6/6/19 11:17 am
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| One more thing, contrary to popular Christian belief.. |
caseyleejones |
The preachers that believe you should have nice things doesn’t make us look bad. I’m with a group of 100,000 members in a secular forum where the IE interview came up. Most didn’t care because they don’t give. Those identified as Christian were meh...
The thing that did bug them most were Christians who file bankruptcy or don’t pay bills, got divorced, or had a girlfriend on the side. What makes Christianity look bad to the world is many time found in our local assembly. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11794
6/6/19 11:25 am
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| Re: One more thing, contrary to popular Christian belief.. |
Dave Dorsey |
| caseyleejones wrote: | The preachers that believe you should have nice things doesn’t make us look bad. I’m with a group of 100,000 members in a secular forum where the IE interview came up. Most didn’t care because they don’t give. Those identified as Christian were meh...
The thing that did bug them most were Christians who file bankruptcy or don’t pay bills, got divorced, or had a girlfriend on the side. What makes Christianity look bad to the world is many time found in our local assembly. |
I know I've been pretty hard on Copeland and his ilk, so let me clarify that I do not think Christians or Christian ministers need to be poor or of modest means. There are people of all walks of life who are rich, poor, and everything in between -- so as you say, it makes sense that Christians and ministers would be the same.
I think there are temptations and snares that rich Christians need to watch out for, but there's no biblical basis for thinking Christians or Christian ministers can't be rich. (There is strong biblical admonition against wanting to be rich, c.f. 1 Tim 6:9.)
I've got a real problem with Christian ministers who have stolen their money using false promises of their false teaching, though. Folks who have stolen from widows and offered long prayers and promises of multiplication as a pretense.
Those people make us look real bad. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
6/6/19 11:34 am
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| Again, I will defer to my previous comment that |
caseyleejones |
| those “ilk†as you call them are not the ones causing the problems in my experience. Nobody is talking about them. Once again, while I do not condemn the previous actions I mentioned, in my community which is small, business owners would always say they hated lending to Christians. My wife who works in a public entity deals with nasty Christians and the mistreatment by them. A local COG pastor was known to hustle the price down when buying things. Christian couples are getting divorced right and left who were previously in church, it breaks my heart. They’re dropping like flies around me. But people will say...they were such good church going people. Again, maybe your neck of the woods they talk about charismatics. In mine, it’s the average church going Christian. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11794
6/6/19 11:49 am
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Dave Dorsey |
Fair. I'm not really approaching this conversation from the topic of what does the world think (I know others are). I'm more concerned about the false doctrine and how it leads believers astray.
But I'd also note that the plural of anecdote isn't data.  On the whole, I think there's good reason to believe these folks are making Christianity as a whole look bad. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
6/6/19 12:02 pm
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Cojak |
I know I am too wishy-washy but reading along I can see the points on both sides. The professing Christian who takes advantage, who gives the 'finger' to anyone they do not agree with, who cheat the system AND those who take advantage of other Christians with the promise of RICHES, hurts Christianity.
BUT I cannot help but feel the Multi-millionaires who are preachers and promise the same to 'givers', hurt on the larger scale.
I will admit I view both from a position they are both WRONG. I also must say I am a product of dedicated Christians who gave (most of their excess above living costs) to the cause of Christ and Missions. My parents passed away leaving $750 and a car I had given them. They always said their reward was on the other side. somehow I cannot believe giveing to 'copeland Ministries' is mor holy than COG missions, and my parents never did see those riches on earth. HOWEVER I BELIEVE THEY ARE (or will be) ENJOYING RICHES BEYOND COMPARE.
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24277
6/6/19 9:32 pm
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| Re: There’s gross error here in my opinion.... |
Dave Dorsey |
| caseyleejones wrote: | Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!â€
I don’t have a lot of expendable time. I’ve been out of pocket from acts till recently, likely go back to hiding due to upcoming projects. I see error in just about every camp. God didn’t call me to spend my time correcting or exposing others. For one, you change very few peoples minds. Much of the outrage exhibited whether right or wrong changes little. It is a time waster for me. I have several upcoming projects that I am currently working on that are focused on God and people. He called me to follow him. So if I see something that doesn’t quite jive with me....follow him. Is it wrong for me to correct error when I see it? Depends. Just like FB can be a time waster, so can spending time seeing all the error and bringing it to light. If someone feels called to the area of correcting others, Godspeed. It’s not my calling at this time in my life. |
I missed this post the first time around.
This is just not true. Eph 5:11, 1 John 4:1, 1 Tim 5:20, Matt 7:15-20, 2 Tim 3:5, 1 Pet 4:17, Titus 1:10-16, and honestly this list could go on and on. There are dozens of verses about our responsibility, especially as ministers, to publicly rebuke false teaching and false teachers so that people are not led astray.
Now, a lot of this applies first and foremost to a local assembly -- but on a forum like this, we all can all help each other be better equipped to confront this error in our local assemblies and help guard the faith of our brothers and sisters in Christ.
And then there's the folks here who buy into WoF and/or hypercharismatic doctrine and actually approve of it! Maybe those folks won't change because of something posted here, but at least the truth will have been proclaimed to them.
OTCP and others proclaimed that truth on this forum to my stiff ears for many years before God granted me repentance from that error. At times, I despised them for it! But now I am so grateful that they kept planting seeds of biblical truth because one day those seeds bore fruit in my heart. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
6/7/19 12:46 pm
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| Dave, do you believe in the baptism of the HS and tongues? |
caseyleejones |
| Do you believe in the Gifts of the HS? This is not a gotcha but wondering how far you have switched your theology. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11794
6/7/19 5:19 pm
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| Re: Dave, do you believe in the baptism of the HS and tongues? |
Dave Dorsey |
| caseyleejones wrote: | | Do you believe in the Gifts of the HS? This is not a gotcha but wondering how far you have switched your theology. |
Yes, absolutely. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
6/7/19 5:57 pm
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| Re: Dave, do you believe in the baptism of the HS and tongues? |
caseyleejones |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | caseyleejones wrote: | | Do you believe in the Gifts of the HS? This is not a gotcha but wondering how far you have switched your theology. |
Yes, absolutely. |
Got it...THANKS |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11794
6/7/19 7:25 pm
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