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Post Mayday! Mayday! Stinkin Cheese2
How far does a state have to drop before Cleveland gets a clue that something ain't right? How many churches do you have to lose? How many pastors leaving the denomination does it take before someone notices that something is not right? Does anyone in Tennessee even notice or care that across the state churches are in decline and we are in trouble? The ship is taking on water!

Last edited by Stinkin Cheese2 on 6/9/19 7:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post Stinkin Cheese... Aaron Scott
When I was in the business world, there was a problem that needed fixing, but no fixes were forthcoming. So I wrote a memo to upper management and advised them of the problem, since I was sure that once they knew, they would act.

What they said changed my course of action. They said, "We KNOW there's a problem, but we don't know the solution."

And that was my signal to find the solution (I did).

Don't you think, my friend, that if Cleveland knew how to fix things, they would.? I guarantee you they know about the problem.

But what is the SOLUTION? That's where we come in, I imagine. Because until they are made aware of the solution (assuming there is one), they cannot help.
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5/21/19 7:51 pm


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Post Re: Stinkin Cheese... Nature Boy Florida
Aaron Scott wrote:
When I was in the business world, there was a problem that needed fixing, but no fixes were forthcoming. So I wrote a memo to upper management and advised them of the problem, since I was sure that once they knew, they would act.

What they said changed my course of action. They said, "We KNOW there's a problem, but we don't know the solution."

And that was my signal to find the solution (I did).

Don't you think, my friend, that if Cleveland knew how to fix things, they would.? I guarantee you they know about the problem.

But what is the SOLUTION? That's where we come in, I imagine. Because until they are made aware of the solution (assuming there is one), they cannot help.


Must be blood moon time...Aaron Scott is right on here. No one has the solution - within our current framework.

We're like Sears - we want to be like Amazon - but don't know how to get there from here.
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5/22/19 6:41 am


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Post It may be... roughridercog
That to fix a situation, they would have to admit they made a horrendous mistake to begin with.
That's hard.
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Post Da Sheik
One might infer from the OP, that a simple change of leadership (likely the AB) will bring about dramatic change throughout a state. Change begins at the grass-roots level. Sam Walton understood this concept. Churches grow when leadership systems are in place and the laity are equipped to do ministry. Too many churches are waiting on SuperPastor to come flying in and make the church grow. That’s not how it typically happens unless the pastor already has a huge following.

Likewise, a new AB isn’t going to be able to come in and “fix” all the ills of a given state. And he certainly isn’t culpable for all of the failures of individual churches. Forgive me if I am reading this scenario all wrong (it wouldn’t be the first time), but it sounds to me like someone has a quarrel with a state leader. I’m not defending any actions of said person or taking sides. Just observing from the outside in.
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Post sheepdogandy
De-centralization.

It's going to happen, one way or another.

It's the local congregations.

They matter.
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Post Stinkin Cheese2
Shocked

Last edited by Stinkin Cheese2 on 6/9/19 7:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post roughridercog
Stinkin Cheese2 wrote:
No the Cheese does not really have a personal quarrel with the AB. While I think leadership is definitely a problem it would be incorrect to lay it all at the feet of this one AB. The problem has gone on in this state for a long, long time through several changes of administration. But I would have to say that the current leadership is exasperating the situation. A Cheese need only look at what has been happening in his tenure and it is pretty obvious that something smells and it's not the Cheese. During his tenure, many churches have been closed and sold, a leading church with a pastor on the State Council pulled his church independent telling the AB that he could no longer work within the denomination where the Minutes are so flagrantly violated. The largest church in the state suffered a major split with a new independent church started as a direct result of the AB's actions. Two pastors with very long tenures in the Church of God have resigned their churches and gone to work with independent churches. A pastor was removed from a troubled church and blamed for their woes, yet the next pasotor stayed for less than 10 months and they are trying to sell the property now. Another long-term pastor was in the process of planting a new COG was falsely accused of proselytizing people from other Church of God's and even though the people in question wrote letters clearly stating that the pastor had NEVER contacted them and they came to the new church on their own accord he and his church were booted from the Church of God. Attendance is down around the state and pastors have said to one another that they do not trust the AB and that he has a problem with the truth, but they are all in fear because of what they've seen and heard so they will not confront him. All over the state the whisper is, "he will be gone in 15 months." Cleveland, you have a problem. We know that while you do not post, you read Acts-celerate regularly. Do you care? Accuse me of having a grudge or whatever you want, but the fact remains, you are dangerously close to losing an entire state!


How many churches, pastors, and members will be gone in 15 months?
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Post Nature Boy Florida
Stinkin Cheese2 wrote:
No the Cheese does not really have a personal quarrel with the AB. While I think leadership is definitely a problem it would be incorrect to lay it all at the feet of this one AB. The problem has gone on in this state for a long, long time through several changes of administration. But I would have to say that the current leadership is exasperating the situation. A Cheese need only look at what has been happening in his tenure and it is pretty obvious that something smells and it's not the Cheese. During his tenure, many churches have been closed and sold, a leading church with a pastor on the State Council pulled his church independent telling the AB that he could no longer work within the denomination where the Minutes are so flagrantly violated. The largest church in the state suffered a major split with a new independent church started as a direct result of the AB's actions. Two pastors with very long tenures in the Church of God have resigned their churches and gone to work with independent churches. A pastor was removed from a troubled church and blamed for their woes, yet the next pasotor stayed for less than 10 months and they are trying to sell the property now. Another long-term pastor was in the process of planting a new COG was falsely accused of proselytizing people from other Church of God's and even though the people in question wrote letters clearly stating that the pastor had NEVER contacted them and they came to the new church on their own accord he and his church were booted from the Church of God. Attendance is down around the state and pastors have said to one another that they do not trust the AB and that he has a problem with the truth, but they are all in fear because of what they've seen and heard so they will not confront him. All over the state the whisper is, "he will be gone in 15 months." Cleveland, you have a problem. We know that while you do not post, you read Acts-celerate regularly. Do you care? Accuse me of having a grudge or whatever you want, but the fact remains, you are dangerously close to losing an entire state!


How about some names and church names so we can fact check all of this?

Hard to get riled up with a bunch of mumbo jumbo - saying nothing.
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Post The Elephant in the Room Tom Sterbens
Stinkin Cheese2 wrote:
Cleveland, you have a problem. We know that while you do not post, you read Acts-celerate regularly. Do you care? Accuse me of having a grudge or whatever you want, but the fact remains, you are dangerously close to losing an entire state!


OK...enough of the veiled cryptic inuendo.
If you are talking about Illinois the fact is there are approximately 65 reporting churches. (http://www.illinoiscog.org/districts/) While I do not know the history, I would still say that you saying the CHurch of God is "dangerlously close to losing an entire state!" is a bit of dramatic overstatement.
But that's me...

Last - have you accepted the invitation extended by the Illinois Bishop (on this forum) to call him and express your concerns or inquire for clarity?
Have you called any of the leadership you've questioned?

Thanks...
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5/22/19 1:49 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
I guess this is why we weren't able to fact check.

This post really does stink - worse than cheese.
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Post Darrell Garrett
Hey, I've got nothing to lose since I'm no longer a part of the good ole boy system... I mean the Church of God. I believe that it was mentioned previously that pastors in the state are secretly talking to one another saying that the overseer will be gone so to just wait. I've had several contact me to tell me that if I will be patient and wait until there is a change that they will see to it that my credentials are restored. They presuppose that I would want them back. I won't say "never" but I seriously doubt that I would ever come back. I bled Church of God all of my life, but the last 5 months have opened my eyes to the real working behind the scenes.

The original post is correct. There has been a trend downward in Illinois for years and it's not right to cast all that on the shoulders of the current man in office, but I will say, he is not helping himself at all with the manner in which he deals with people, myself included. I'll leave it at that. It's not my fight. I wish you all well.
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Post Re: Stinkin Cheese... Mat
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
Aaron Scott wrote:
When I was in the business world, there was a problem that needed fixing, but no fixes were forthcoming. So I wrote a memo to upper management and advised them of the problem, since I was sure that once they knew, they would act.

What they said changed my course of action. They said, "We KNOW there's a problem, but we don't know the solution."

And that was my signal to find the solution (I did).

Don't you think, my friend, that if Cleveland knew how to fix things, they would.? I guarantee you they know about the problem.

But what is the SOLUTION? That's where we come in, I imagine. Because until they are made aware of the solution (assuming there is one), they cannot help.


Must be blood moon time...Aaron Scott is right on here. No one has the solution - within our current framework.

We're like Sears - we want to be like Amazon - but don't know how to get there from here.


Technology, well placed warehouses and home delivery, at least that Amazon. So, a networks for large churches which also "deliver" home ministry? Sears, surrendered their catalog advantage for large overhead "brick and stick" mall stores where the customer must travel to them. So, it was a "you have to come to us" if you want it approach.

Mat
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5/22/19 4:38 pm


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Post Tom Sterbens
Darrell Garrett wrote:
Hey, I've got nothing to lose since I'm no longer a part of the good ole boy system... I mean the Church of God.


So...is the implication that any of us who should remain are "part of the good ole boy system"?

I have supported you publicly and privately - but I think that generalization is a bit of overkill.
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Post Re: The Elephant in the Room Cojak
Tom Sterbens wrote:
...
Last - have you accepted the invitation extended by the Illinois Bishop (on this forum) to call him and express your concerns or inquire for clarity?
Have you called any of the leadership you've questioned?

Thanks...


Looking in from the outside, if SC is a pastor in that state (or any state) and wants to protect his ability to pastor a COG, he will think three times (at least) before calling anyone in admin, state or national unless he has a 'name' or 'in' family wise more so than the overseer.

I am COG was born COG and I love it, but 'facts is facts' as my brother used to say.
For the record I have NEVER had a problem with ANY COG official and have known many. BUT I have good friends that have had 'run ins' and regretted it. Shocked

PS: I think that is the reason for 'pen names' here. I am sure some one in Cleveland has read this, and it they are smart will look into the 'problem' honestly. If they do not, it is their loss. Shocked
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5/22/19 10:56 pm


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Post Darrell Garrett
Tom Sterbens wrote:
Darrell Garrett wrote:
Hey, I've got nothing to lose since I'm no longer a part of the good ole boy system... I mean the Church of God.


So...is the implication that any of us who should remain are "part of the good ole boy system"?

I have supported you publicly and privately - but I think that generalization is a bit of overkill.


Tom, my reference was toward the politics of the church and not toward pastors or members. We all know what it is and we have known so for years. If you were in the right fraternity, ran with the right guys or are related to them, you're in. Otherwise, you're not. Oh sure, there have been a few exceptions, but by and large it's true. And if you are a part of that group or get accepted into the inner circle in other ways, it does not matter what you do, "brothers" stick together. Messes "disappear", and accountability... forget it. If you went to Lee you know that Upsilon and Chi live by the motto that if one rises, he pulls others up with him. I'm sure that statement will draw ire by some, but that is just the way it is and has been.

If I offended you Tom, (and others) I apologize. It was not intended as a slam of the COG; rather the politics of the COG.
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Post Tom Sterbens
Darrell Garrett wrote:

If I offended you Tom, (and others) I apologize. It was not intended as a slam of the COG; rather the politics of the COG.


I was not offended. I did read into it the next "SheepdogAndy" overtone - you know, "All of you who remain part of a centralized form of government are less than enlightened."

Nonetheless, I have encouraged and supported you through the unfortunate transition. From what little I know I think you have taken the high road - did not want to see that change.

Thanks
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Post sheepdogandy
Don't speak for me Tom.

I am quite capable of speaking for myself.

Clearly and without need for interpretation.

"The system" has been defined numerous times on this board.

The excesses and abuse is well documented here.

I would not say "less enlightened".

I will say that one day we all will give an account to God.

Some behave as if we won't.
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Post OK, system or no system ... Mat
OK, system or no system, the number of local churches and membership seem relevant to this conversation. Maybe someone could pick a comparative year against the current year (1999 against 2019) for statistics in IL, if that is the focus of this thread. What were the numbers reported in 1999 (it seems like that would be in the minutes) and what are they now?

A deeper study would be total giving and attendance, but I'm guessing you would have to access the State Office for those numbers, and that might be problematic.

Here's my two cents worth, when things are going great at my local church, the system is just fine, and when they are not, well, "off with their heads!"

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5/23/19 10:55 am


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Post Tom Sterbens
sheepdogandy wrote:
Don't speak for me Tom.

I am quite capable of speaking for myself.

Clearly and without need for interpretation.

"The system" has been defined numerous times on this board.

The excesses and abuse is well documented here.

I would not say "less enlightened".

I will say that one day we all will give an account to God.

Some behave as if we won't.

I made no claim to "speak for you."
I simply stated my opinion of your recurring message over the years and my perception of the message - implicit or explici (note the term "overtone").
I will stand by that opinion.

Anything else??? Smile
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5/24/19 2:07 pm


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