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 A question about women in the pulpit |
Eddie Robbins |
| Our churches have always made room for women preachers. We don’t for a lot of offices and that’s for a another debate. Right now there is a debate going on in the SBC and Beth Moore is right in the middle of it. So, my question to anybody who will not allow a woman to teach or preach to men is....why is it OK for a woman to sing the Word but not speak the Word? It seems to me if she will only put some music to her preaching, she’s good. |
Acts-pert Poster
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5/13/19 5:56 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
That's why we turn the lights out during singing now. We aren't able to see the women singing....makes it ok.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
5/14/19 5:20 am
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| I Agree with the Southern Baptists on This One |
FG Minister |
Here is a direct quote from the Southern Baptist Conference:
Southern Baptists believe the place to begin in this, as in all doctrinal questions, is to ask, "What does the Bible say?" Even a cursory reading of the pertinent texts prompts three important observations: 1) there were no known women pastors in New Testament times; 2) none of the instructions regarding church order include instructions for women pastors; and 3) some texts on church order explicitly forbid women to occupy that role. In 1 Timothy 2:12, written with the specific purpose of regulating the office of pastor and the orderly function of the churches, Paul writes, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man" (NIV). Paul does not expect that women will not or cannot learn or teach (compare with Titus 2:3-5 and 2 Tim. 1:5; 3:14,15). He concludes women cannot have a pastoral position, or perform the pastoral function, for that puts them in authority over men in the life of the church.
The question at hand is not whether women are of equal value to men, nor is it whether they can minister effectively. They are, and they do! Nor, is it an issue of the autonomy of the local church. It is, rather, that the Scripture assigns the role of pastor to males.
The Bible's teaching on pastoral qualifications does not mean it is anti-woman. On the contrary, numerous passages speak clearly and forcibly to the inherent worth and value of women. Women in the New Testament engaged in significant ministry, performing valuable service in sometimes difficult situations. This is readily seen in the Acts of the Apostles. Both Priscilla and Aquila spoke privately to Apollos at Ephesus (Acts 18:24-26), correcting his incomplete and flawed theology. Further, women clearly played a considerable role in the work of the apostle Paul. In his letter to the Romans, Paul identified sixteen noteworthy helpers in ministry (16:1-16), and at least ten of them were women. Women in the New Testament, as they do today, participated in varied ministry, which served to strengthen and conserve the churches.
Southern Baptists are not anti-woman; indeed, they affirm the leadership of women in family, business, politics, and a wide array of human endeavors. Furthermore, women are an integral and invaluable part of the Body of Christ, serving in a broad variety of important roles both as volunteers and vocational ministers. We don't know how to say this more strongly: women and men are of equal value! However, because Scripture speaks specifically to the role of pastor, churches are under a moral imperative to be guided by that teaching, rather than the shifting opinions of human cultures. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 874
5/14/19 7:01 am
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| Just another example of mischaracterization of the scriptures |
brotherjames |
Author Message
FG Minister
PostPosted: 5/14/19 7:01 am Post subject: I Agree with the Southern Baptists on This One
Here is a direct quote from the Southern Baptist Conference:
Southern Baptists believe the place to begin in this, as in all doctrinal questions, is to ask, "What does the Bible say?" Even a cursory reading of the pertinent texts prompts three important observations: 1) there were no known women pastors in New Testament times; 2) none of the instructions regarding church order include instructions for women pastors; and 3) some texts on church order explicitly forbid women to occupy that role. In 1 Timothy 2:12, written with the specific purpose of regulating the office of pastor and the orderly function of the churches, Paul writes, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man" (NIV). Paul does not expect that women will not or cannot learn or teach (compare with Titus 2:3-5 and 2 Tim. 1:5; 3:14,15). He concludes women cannot have a pastoral position, or perform the pastoral function, for that puts them in authority over men in the life of the church.
The question at hand is not whether women are of equal value to men, nor is it whether they can minister effectively. They are, and they do! Nor, is it an issue of the autonomy of the local church. It is, rather, that the Scripture assigns the role of pastor to males.
The Bible's teaching on pastoral qualifications does not mean it is anti-woman. On the contrary, numerous passages speak clearly and forcibly to the inherent worth and value of women. Women in the New Testament engaged in significant ministry, performing valuable service in sometimes difficult situations. This is readily seen in the Acts of the Apostles. Both Priscilla and Aquila spoke privately to Apollos at Ephesus (Acts 18:24-26), correcting his incomplete and flawed theology. Further, women clearly played a considerable role in the work of the apostle Paul. In his letter to the Romans, Paul identified sixteen noteworthy helpers in ministry (16:1-16), and at least ten of them were women. Women in the New Testament, as they do today, participated in varied ministry, which served to strengthen and conserve the churches.
Southern Baptists are not anti-woman; indeed, they affirm the leadership of women in family, business, politics, and a wide array of human endeavors. Furthermore, women are an integral and invaluable part of the Body of Christ, serving in a broad variety of important roles both as volunteers and vocational ministers. We don't know how to say this more strongly: women and men are of equal value! However, because Scripture speaks specifically to the role of pastor, churches are under a moral imperative to be guided by that teaching, rather than the shifting opinions of human cultures.
Not a question of shifting opinions or shifting cultures but merely the normal mysogninistic reading of scriptures that without critical examination seem to imply what men want them to say to back up their bias. The AG has always ordained women and we stand on the inerrancy of scriptures to do so. Total baloney from the SBC and cog. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
5/14/19 8:03 am
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| Double post sorry |
brotherjames |
| Deleted[/img] |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
5/14/19 8:04 am
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Eddie Robbins |
| The women should remain silent in the churches. That’s scripture too. Why do they not uphold this scripture? It’s all a matter of misinterpretation. It’s all about culture. Again, they allow women to sing the Word. So, all a woman has to do is add a little melody to her sermon and she’s alright. That’s how silly it all is. In the last days, women will prophesy. I guess they aren’t allowed to do it in church. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
5/14/19 9:04 am
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| I'm not as theologically smart as all you here...... |
caseyleejones |
But this is what I have seen...observation only....
There are those groups that adhere to scripture and say that women cannot be pastors.
The other group will say it's an issue of culture...Paul wasn't speaking to us but only to them at that time.
Do we use the culture card when we don't like what certain passages say? At the same time, I have seen some very successful women pastors and God was on their life at the time.
Really... I don't have an answer... |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11792
5/14/19 9:35 am
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Eddie Robbins |
| That is correct. They excuse scriptures they don’t like to the culture of that day and use the ones they claim are for today. It’s bull for the most part. Why would God confuse by saying that our daughters will prophesy knowing that denominations won’t permit it? God is saying, to hell with the old culture, in the last days, your daughters will prophesy. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
5/14/19 12:53 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | God is saying, to hell with the old culture |
No question - that is how God communicates. To hell with it. 
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
5/14/19 2:04 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | Eddie Robbins wrote: | | God is saying, to hell with the old culture |
No question - that is how God communicates. To hell with it. |
That’s actually His idea. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
5/14/19 2:06 pm
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| Why Southern Baptists Miss It So Very Often... |
Aaron Scott |
| brotherjames wrote: | Author Message
FG Minister
PostPosted: 5/14/19 7:01 am Post subject: I Agree with the Southern Baptists on This One
Here is a direct quote from the Southern Baptist Conference:
Southern Baptists believe the place to begin in this, as in all doctrinal questions, is to ask, "What does the Bible say?" Even a cursory reading of the pertinent texts prompts three important observations: 1) there were no known women pastors in New Testament times; 2) none of the instructions regarding church order include instructions for women pastors; and 3) some texts on church order explicitly forbid women to occupy that role. In 1 Timothy 2:12, written with the specific purpose of regulating the office of pastor and the orderly function of the churches, Paul writes, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man" (NIV). Paul does not expect that women will not or cannot learn or teach (compare with Titus 2:3-5 and 2 Tim. 1:5; 3:14,15). He concludes women cannot have a pastoral position, or perform the pastoral function, for that puts them in authority over men in the life of the church.
The question at hand is not whether women are of equal value to men, nor is it whether they can minister effectively. They are, and they do! Nor, is it an issue of the autonomy of the local church. It is, rather, that the Scripture assigns the role of pastor to males.
The Bible's teaching on pastoral qualifications does not mean it is anti-woman. On the contrary, numerous passages speak clearly and forcibly to the inherent worth and value of women. Women in the New Testament engaged in significant ministry, performing valuable service in sometimes difficult situations. This is readily seen in the Acts of the Apostles. Both Priscilla and Aquila spoke privately to Apollos at Ephesus (Acts 18:24-26), correcting his incomplete and flawed theology. Further, women clearly played a considerable role in the work of the apostle Paul. In his letter to the Romans, Paul identified sixteen noteworthy helpers in ministry (16:1-16), and at least ten of them were women. Women in the New Testament, as they do today, participated in varied ministry, which served to strengthen and conserve the churches.
Southern Baptists are not anti-woman; indeed, they affirm the leadership of women in family, business, politics, and a wide array of human endeavors. Furthermore, women are an integral and invaluable part of the Body of Christ, serving in a broad variety of important roles both as volunteers and vocational ministers. We don't know how to say this more strongly: women and men are of equal value! However, because Scripture speaks specifically to the role of pastor, churches are under a moral imperative to be guided by that teaching, rather than the shifting opinions of human cultures.
Not a question of shifting opinions or shifting cultures but merely the normal mysogninistic reading of scriptures that without critical examination seem to imply what men want them to say to back up their bias. The AG has always ordained women and we stand on the inerrancy of scriptures to do so. Total baloney from the SBC and cog. |
First, of all, the SBC is wrong about Pentecost.
Second, of all, they are wrong about OSAS.
But I digress....
They have placed a little "escape clause" in their argument. Very simply, they want women to keep silent...except in those cases where they approve of a woman speaking, etc.
The SBC wrote:
Paul does not expect that women will not or cannot learn or teach (compare with Titus 2:3-5 and 2 Tim. 1:5; 3:14,15). He concludes women cannot have a pastoral position, or perform the pastoral function, for that puts them in authority over men in the life of the church.
No, Paul VERY CLEARLY says that women cannot teach. The SBC is trying to make this passage applicable ONLY to women PASTORS.
But Paul was perfectly capable of stating exactly what he meant, right?
But the SBC, knowing how full of holes was the notion of women LITERALLY keeping silent in the church, decided to say, "Well, yes, but Paul was speaking ONLY of women PASTORS. It's perfectly fine with us if women teach and sing and testify, etc.--after all, if they didn't we wouldn't have enough adults to teach Sunday School or sing in the choir...so OBVIOUSLY this is not what Paul meant."
Me? I just flat out reject it as a statement intended for the whole church. It may have been meant for a specific church that had Beulah's running around left and right...or it might be just some left over Pharisaic perspectives.
In the Church of God, we have interpreted this to mean women can do anything in ministry...except serve in leadership in the denomination. Of course, it may very well be that we are pulling a stunt like the SBC--i.e., interpreting in the way that best suits our purposes.
I personally believe that the examples of scripture lead us to an all-male (or at least "virtually all-male") leadership model. At the same time, I also admit that the Bible does not clearly exclude women from denominational leadership. The examples, traditions, and scriptures clearly lean toward our traditional take on such matters, but there is not a clear statement to include OR EXCLUDE women. So I have stopped resisting it, even though I believe it will bring special difficulties with it. I only say something if someone rings it up wrong.
To call the traditional take misogynistic is just the other side of the coin of us calling the AG politically correct or what have you--i.e., it is not based in scripture, but to get our way, we will use whatever tools we need to to paint the other side in such a way to get them to agree with us. No, for or against, have no solid reason to act like the other side has no basis for doing it their way. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
5/14/19 2:45 pm
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Cojak |
Along with the spirit, I also appreciate logic. In the COG I only know one woman pastor from the 50-70s era, Sister Wineberger in the Gaston county area of North Carolina. She must have been a great pastor, I NEVER heard anything 'negative' about that woman. My dad held her in high regard.
I am thinking God must have blessed her above many men pastors, her churches seemed to grow and worship God.
BUT yes, most 'Religious Organizations' do by their actions wan to keep women on the back pew and at the back of the bus.
I have no problem with people who interpret scripture different than I see it, even Highly educated and respected 'scholars' on both sides of the fence cannot agree, how can one HS drop out actually 'declare' the exact interpretations whether cultural or timeline.
I just do the best I can...   
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24277
5/14/19 10:12 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
Perhaps Sister Flippo would like to comment on this thread.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
5/15/19 4:49 am
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| My only problem with it honestly... |
roughridercog |
Is that too many hit a specific vocal tone that after 5 minutes sounds like WAAAAH WAAAAH WAAAH to me. Learn to vary voice tone and don't lapse into a high monotone.
Other than that, preach on.
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
5/15/19 6:04 am
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| Women in ministry has ... |
Mat |
Women in ministry has been a recurring question throughout the history of both the Church of God Movement and the Pentecostal Movement. I think AJT and our other founding fathers struggled with the application of all scriptures related to the subject. Perhaps they were in error, but they concluded that women (wives) should not have a voice in the business of the church, but liberty in the ministry of the church, to some degree. There was a thinking that if the State or General Overseers appointed a woman to a ministry she was not "usurping" authority of a the man, but rather under authority of those in authority. Guys, just because your a man does not mean you are in spiritual authority over all women. Try to take authority over my wife and see what I'll do.
The current focus is, "we" have given women a voice in the business of the church, but limit the level of ministry and offices of ministry they can be elected to. The COG (among others) as kept women out of the real elections (General Council) while allowing them a few hours and votes in the General Assembly. What if all the women, and some of the men, voted against everything proposed by the General Council with their vote in the General Assembly?
One result would be wives contradicting their husbands in church business, which may have been the real warning in I Corinthians 14 in the first place. The warning to women (wives) not speaking in church, may have been a warning against "side-bar" conversations with undercut both their husbands' leadership and that those speaking in the role of ministry.
As you look at the qualification of Bishops and Deacons, using the same approach of interpenetration in regards to women in ministry, there are no Bishops who have more than one wife, or a broken home, or an unbelieving wife, or unruly children, etc. However, with a good amount of explanation, there have been "work-a-rounds" to a strict stance. As for Ordained Deacons, well, they got in the way of the party.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
5/15/19 7:20 am
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| I Love the Argument |
FG Minister |
| The SBC is wrong on this point and that point, so they must be wrong on women in the pulpit. They also believe one must be saved by faith in Jesus. Are they wrong on that point as well? Women can preach, but pastors are elders and elders are to have one wife. That excludes women - unless... |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 874
5/19/19 6:41 am
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