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 Do all speak with tongues ? |
Da Sheik |
1 Cor 12:30
New International Version
Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
Paul seems to anticipate a negative answer. And yet most of us would say “yes, at least initially, and then maybe later “
Thought I would stir up a little discussion. |
Acts Enthusiast
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4/29/19 7:03 pm
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| Re: Do all speak with tongues ? |
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| Da Sheik wrote: | 1 Cor 12:30
New International Version
Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
Paul seems to anticipate a negative answer. And yet most of us would say “yes, at least initially, and then maybe later “
Thought I would stir up a little discussion. |
I hear it carries the sense of 'Not all speak with tongues, do they?"
Yeah, it's a problem for the initial evidence viewpoint. But don't worry, people will solve the problem by creating different categories of tongues not enumerated in scripture and claim that Paul is also speaking of a certain category of tongues.
That kind of reminds me of how some cessationists try to get read of the gifts of healing and the working of miracles by putting them in the 'sign gifts' category and then argue that tongues have already ceased and try to do away with miracle and healing gifts at the same time.
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Acts-perienced Poster
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4/29/19 7:31 pm
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diakoneo |
| Whether we want to admit it or not, tongues are an easily human manufactured or faked gift. I have seen people give out messages in tongues one minute and the next threaten physical harm to a believer whom they disagreed with. If the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, then someone who has been baptized in the Holy Spirit would surely evidence a true God kind of love in their life, right? Like Stephen (full of the Holy Spirit) who when being stoned, prayed for the forgiveness of those who were killing him! |
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4/29/19 8:19 pm
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Cojak |
Very seldom. I have never been given an interpretation.
I never heard my dad speak in tongues, except thru a wall at home and much of that was groaning type sounds. But I never met a more honest or humble man. I never heard my parents 'badmouth' ANY church member, they were family.
My mother on the other hand spoke in tongues fairly often.
I lived in the parsonage for 17 years and they were always 'steady as a rock.'
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4/29/19 9:03 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| For one thing, it’s the least of the gifts and was the most preached among all gifts in the COG when I was growing up. I’m not sure about it now and can’t speak for 6000 churches. And without LOVE it’s nothing. |
Acts-pert Poster
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4/30/19 8:15 am
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| diakoneo wrote: | | Whether we want to admit it or not, tongues are an easily human manufactured or faked gift. I have seen people give out messages in tongues one minute and the next threaten physical harm to a believer whom they disagreed with. If the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, then someone who has been baptized in the Holy Spirit would surely evidence a true God kind of love in their life, right? Like Stephen (full of the Holy Spirit) who when being stoned, prayed for the forgiveness of those who were killing him! |
Judas was given the power to do miracles along with the other apostles. Jesus implied that Satan could not cast out Satan, but there will be people who come to him on that day claiming to have cast out devils in His name, and also to having prophesied and to having done many wonderful works in His name.
Balaam prophesied. Caiaphas prophesied. Speaking in tongues isn't a guarantee of eternal salvation, and if someone has a gift and falls into sin, would that mean the gift would necessarily stop working?
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4/30/19 9:18 am
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sheepdogandy |
The difference is between the evidence of tongues and the gift of tongues.
ALL who receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit will manifest the evidence of tongues.
The gift of tongues (giving out a message) will not be manifest in everyone.
I have the gift of interpretation.
I manifest the evidence of tongues.
I do not possess the gift of tongues.
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Congregational Church of God
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7298
4/30/19 12:55 pm
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| Totally agree with Sheepdog |
brotherjames |
All will manifest tongues as initial physical evidence but not all will have the GIFT of tongues. He's dealing with the gifts. The problem for many is that they equate the initial evidence also known as a prayer language with the gift of tongues. This is a particular problem in the cog. This gives rise to the poor teaching that says every tongue must be interpreted. Only the gift needs to be interpreted if it is to be of value to those in a gathering but any one can pray at will in tongues with or without an interpretation. Oral Roberts prayed in tongues and then asked for the interpretation and God often gave it to him which is how he directed his life and ministry. Oral Roberts university was birthed out of a time praying in tongues.
I personally believe that this is one of the greatest tools given to man, to be able to have the Spirit of God pray thru us. And, according to Rom 8 :28 it is the perfect prayer. According to jude 20 it will build our faith. How? Because praying in tongues/spirit is prayer prayed by the Spirit and it is according to His Will. Snd according to 1 John 5:12-13 if we ask anything according to His will He hears us and the next verse says we will have the petition we asked for. That should build our faith. God is hearing and answering our prayers prayed by the Spirit of God thru us, for us and by our tongue. HALLELUJAH! |
Acts-celerater
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4/30/19 4:49 pm
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revuriah |
| sheepdogandy wrote: | The difference is between the evidence of tongues and the gift of tongues.
ALL who receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit will manifest the evidence of tongues.
The gift of tongues (giving out a message) will not be manifest in everyone.
I have the gift of interpretation.
I manifest the evidence of tongues.
I do not possess the gift of tongues. |
This has been my understanding as well. I see a real difference here between tongues as a gift within the body assembled and the initial evidence, or even praying in the Spirit where my mind isn’t comprehending the language but my spirit is built up.
Several years ago, I was praying for a Puerto Rican brother at the altar time. I quietly began praying in tongues, but loud enough that he could hear me. I prayed like this for a few moments and sensed a release. I went on the platform, strapped my guitar on, and played altar music. Fast forward a few months, and this brother pulled me aside to talk with me. He reminded me of that Sunday when I spoke in tongues while praying for him. He told me that I began to say to him in Spanish, “it’s time to come out of the caveâ€...I was blown away. I don’t speak Spanish, even with 3 years of it in school. I can’t tell you how to come out of the bathroom, let alone the cave! But that day, God used me in the gift of tongues to encourage a hurting child of God that had found himself shut away from everything.
It’s never happened since.
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5/3/19 6:31 pm
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Cojak |
| revuriah wrote: | | sheepdogandy wrote: | The difference is between the evidence of tongues and the gift of tongues.
ALL who receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit will manifest the evidence of tongues.
The gift of tongues (giving out a message) will not be manifest in everyone.
I have the gift of interpretation.
I manifest the evidence of tongues.
I do not possess the gift of tongues. |
This has been my understanding as well. I see a real difference here between tongues as a gift within the body assembled and the initial evidence, or even praying in the Spirit where my mind isn’t comprehending the language but my spirit is built up.
Several years ago, I was praying for a Puerto Rican brother at the altar time. I quietly began praying in tongues, but loud enough that he could hear me. I prayed like this for a few moments and sensed a release. I went on the platform, strapped my guitar on, and played altar music. Fast forward a few months, and this brother pulled me aside to talk with me. He reminded me of that Sunday when I spoke in tongues while praying for him. He told me that I began to say to him in Spanish, “it’s time to come out of the caveâ€...I was blown away. I don’t speak Spanish, even with 3 years of it in school. I can’t tell you how to come out of the bathroom, let alone the cave! But that day, God used me in the gift of tongues to encourage a hurting child of God that had found himself shut away from everything.
It’s never happened since. |
I like that testimony my friend. God is good!
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5/3/19 10:29 pm
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Link |
| sheepdogandy wrote: | The difference is between the evidence of tongues and the gift of tongues.
ALL who receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit will manifest the evidence of tongues.
The gift of tongues (giving out a message) will not be manifest in everyone.
I have the gift of interpretation.
I manifest the evidence of tongues.
I do not possess the gift of tongues. |
The Bible doesn't define the gift of tongues or 'divers tongues.' If we take it literally, wouldn't it include Acts 2 and I Corinthians 14 types of tongues?
Smith Wigglesworth thought that when he spoke in tongues once, the first times, that was the initial evidence, but he could not do it again. Later, he testified that he received the ability to do so and thought that was the 'gift of tongues.'
Paul doesn't differentiate between different types of tongues with his wording that we can tell. He asks 'Do all speak with tongues?' He also uses the same wording to describe tongues to edify the body as tongues to edify the individual (e.g. I Cor. 14:28.)
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5/4/19 7:41 pm
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diakoneo |
| Link wrote: | | sheepdogandy wrote: | The difference is between the evidence of tongues and the gift of tongues.
ALL who receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit will manifest the evidence of tongues.
The gift of tongues (giving out a message) will not be manifest in everyone.
I have the gift of interpretation.
I manifest the evidence of tongues.
I do not possess the gift of tongues. |
The Bible doesn't define the gift of tongues or 'divers tongues.' If we take it literally, wouldn't it include Acts 2 and I Corinthians 14 types of tongues?
Smith Wigglesworth thought that when he spoke in tongues once, the first times, that was the initial evidence, but he could not do it again. Later, he testified that he received the ability to do so and thought that was the 'gift of tongues.'
Paul doesn't differentiate between different types of tongues with his wording that we can tell. He asks 'Do all speak with tongues?' He also uses the same wording to describe tongues to edify the body as tongues to edify the individual (e.g. I Cor. 14:28.) |
My opinion has certainly evolved on this subject over the years. One of the big reasons is the abuse I have witnessed. Most in person and some via the Internet (otcp's duelling tongues, for instance). It seems these abuses occur because the abuser had the desire to edify himself/herself. Of course that goes against the reason for tongues( and all the gifts for that matter) anyway...which is church edification. As to initial evidence, it is a witness of the Holy Spirit. In |
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5/5/19 7:56 am
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| Tongues - Answers |
MI6 |
1. There is a difference between Praying in the Spirit and Speaking in Tongues.
2. Everyone should be praying in the Spirit.
3. NOT everyone has the Gift of Speaking in Tongues.
4. There is not a single verse that states that Speaking in Tongues is the Initial Evidence. That is only surmised by the COG and other Pentecostals.
5. There is not a single verse that states that everyone that has been Baptized in the Holy Spirit must Speaking in Tongues - again only surmised by the COG and other Pentecostals.
6. Much of the Pentecostal Teaching that is in the COG and other Pentecostal denominations is based on EXPERIENCE and not on SCRIPTURE.
7. We should all Praying in the Spirit and pray that the Holy Spirit would give us the Spiritual Gifts that we need. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 140
5/5/19 10:15 am
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| Well Mat |
brotherjames |
I don't know how you were taught exegesis but where I come from the pattern from the book of acts having 4 proof texts kind of is proof that the initial physical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues. My EXPERIENCE merely confirms God's Word to me.
I spoke to a older Baptist pastor years ago who taught and preached against the baptism as taught by Pentecostals as evidence with tongues. He was adamant against it. One day after speaking out very strongly against tongues he went home and got on his knees and honestly prayed. Lord, show me about this. Give me wisdom." While praying, suddenly he was filled with the Spirit in the way he had taught against, with tongues as an evidence. He began telling others his experience which was validated by the Word not vice versa. He was kicked out of his church but eventually he became an adjunct professor at Oral Robert's University. True story. The Word of God validates my experience. Your statements are erroneous. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
5/5/19 5:08 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| The initial evidence that the Holy Spirit arrives here was on the Day of Pentecost. But the gifts are for their children and children’s children. All the gifts given to whomever He chooses. He asks us to seek the best gifts. What are the best gifts? |
Acts-pert Poster
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5/5/19 6:36 pm
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| Think of it this way |
brotherjames |
| Every believer has the Holy Spirit at salvation. It causes our spirit to be born again. The baptism in the Holy Spirit changes the dynamic. Now the Spirit has us as we are immersed into him fully. The physical evidence for that experience is speaking in unknown tongues. But that is just the beginning. It is the entrance into the supernatural Kingdom of God where God has prepared gifts, charisma for those filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the key to the kingdom. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit unlocks the door to the Kingdom but on the other side is the fullness of the kingdom of God waiting to be embraced, entered into and walked out for those who have been filled. And while 1 cor 12 does tell us the Spirit gives our these gifts according to His will, 1 cor 14 tells us as you mentioned to earnestly desire the best gifts, to prophesy etc. I think they are all wonderful but I have walked in the gifts of healing, words of knowledge, prophecy and tongues and the interpretation of tongues as well as faith. I would love to manifest the gifts of healing and miracles in a greater anointing to set people free from their suffering and pain and lead them to Jesus. I have done this around the world and I desire this in a greater and greater measure. To God be the Glory! |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
5/5/19 9:28 pm
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Da Sheik |
| I have tried for many years to reconcile our beliefs regarding tongues and initial evidence and what the scriptures actually teach. I have come to the conclusion that we create a dichotomy that doesn't actually exist. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
5/7/19 10:49 am
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| If you approach a teaching with a preconceived bias |
brotherjames |
| It will be unlikely for you to dispel your bias as you read the proof texts through your filter. Seeing the scriptures that indicate the initial physical evidence as tongues and the pattern they spell out is not difficult unless your are trying to disagree with them from the outset of your examination of them. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
5/8/19 8:15 pm
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| Re: Well Mat |
Link |
| brotherjames wrote: | | I don't know how you were taught exegesis but where I come from the pattern from the book of acts having 4 proof texts kind of is proof that the initial physical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues. My EXPERIENCE merely confirms God's Word to me. |
Moses went to Sinai/Horeb and heard God's audible voice.
Israel went to Sinai and heard God's audible voice.
Elijah went to Horeb and heard God's voice (likely audible, but still and small.)
Is it guaranteed that anyone who ever goes to Sinai/Horeb will hear God speak?
Isn't this the same type of 'hermenuetics' used to teach the initial evidence doctrine?
Except that in Acts 10, at least some spoke in tongues and at least some magnified God, and in Acts 19 at least some spoke in tongues and at least some prophesied. There is no mention of tongues in Acts 8. There are only three prooftexts that mention tongues.
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5/12/19 9:47 pm
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| Re: If you approach a teaching with a preconceived bias |
Da Sheik |
| brotherjames wrote: | | It will be unlikely for you to dispel your bias as you read the proof texts through your filter. Seeing the scriptures that indicate the initial physical evidence as tongues and the pattern they spell out is not difficult unless your are trying to disagree with them from the outset of your examination of them. |
I'm not a cessationist so there is no inherent bias in my exegesis. I have spoken in tongues and believe in their continuing manifestation in the church age. But to turn your own argument around, your dogmatic belief in the initial evidence doctrine prevents you from believing Paul's own rhetorical question(s). The obvious answer to Paul's question is "no"- not all do speak with tongues. But your adherence to tongues as exclusive initial evidence requires you to answer "no, but, yes, at least once initially, then maybe or maybe not subsequently". Sometimes the most obvious answer, is the correct answer. |
Acts Enthusiast
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5/13/19 10:39 am
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