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 Questions about tithing |
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If a preacher uses verses about paying tithes to Aaronic priests or the fatherless, widows, stranger and Levites within Israeli gates to collect a tithes from his congregation, then uses some of that money for himself to live off of, is He misappropriating funds, since the verse he used was about supporting the kohenim and not himself? Might the LORD hold him responsible for robbing God, or for using the LORD's tithe for the priests for himself?
Paul indicated that those who are of faith are not under the curse of the law like those who seek to be justified by the law. Are Christians who do not tithe cash income to the local church because they are poor or give elsewhere or whatever other reason under the church mentioned in Malachi?
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Acts-perienced Poster
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4/29/19 6:34 am
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Resident Skeptic |
Interesting that the tithe teachers remain silent.
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Acts-dicted
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4/29/19 12:54 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Interesting that the tithe teachers remain silent. |
They should be along shortly to characterize a proper exegesis of Malachi as just wanting permission to be selfish and not give. |
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4/29/19 1:30 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | They should be along shortly to characterize a proper exegesis of Malachi as just wanting permission to be selfish and not give. |
This is bad faith on my part. I apologize for this comment. I look forward to folks with different opinions bringing views based in Scripture to this thread so we can have a robust discussion. |
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4/29/19 2:43 pm
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| Re: Questions about tithing |
FLRon |
| Link wrote: | If a preacher uses verses about paying tithes to Aaronic priests or the fatherless, widows, stranger and Levites within Israeli gates to collect a tithes from his congregation, then uses some of that money for himself to live off of, is He misappropriating funds, since the verse he used was about supporting the kohenim and not himself? Might the LORD hold him responsible for robbing God, or for using the LORD's tithe for the priests for himself?
Paul indicated that those who are of faith are not under the curse of the law like those who seek to be justified by the law. Are Christians who do not tithe cash income to the local church because they are poor or give elsewhere or whatever other reason under the church mentioned in Malachi? |
I have to be honest and admit that I am at a fork in the road with the issue of tithing. All of my Christian life I have tithed. I have preached and taught that it was the biblical thing to do. I used the scriptures in Malachi to defend the practice, as well as the fact that Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek which I believed was a clear lesson that we were to tithe even though there was no law at that time commanding such practice.
Today, however, I find myself increasingly uneasy with saying tithing is required of a New Testament believer. Of course, I believe one should financially support their local church. How else will the doors remain open? I just struggle every Sunday now with marking that envelope as “tithesâ€, and find I am tempted more and more to mark it simply as an offering in an effort to appease my conscience. That way it at least stays in the local church.
As I’m still trying to come to terms with this issue, I’m sorting out all kinds of emotions. The pastor says every service without fail that it’s time to receive the “tithes and offeringsâ€. He expects the membership to tithe, especially those involved in ministry. I struggle with instances of financial improprieties because of things I’ve been told, and that raises numerous red flags. For this reason alone I cannot give over and above, even though that is something I’ve always done.
I don’t like making any decisions based upon emotions however, so I feel like when it’s all said and done I will likely continue to tithe, but it will because I want to do so, not because it is a biblical mandate. Either that or I will simply mark everything as offering. I guess time will tell.
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4/29/19 3:49 pm
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| Re: Questions about tithing |
Dave Dorsey |
| FLRon wrote: | | so I feel like when it’s all said and done I will likely continue to tithe, but it will because I want to do so, not because it is a biblical mandate |
This was pretty much where we ended up. My wife and I came to a place where we just couldn't accept that tithing was the one part of the Mosaic law that still bound believers. We couldn't accept that a temple tax for theocratic Israel was somehow still in force today. We couldn't make OT tithing compatible with NT scriptures about giving.
So, with much trepidation and uncertainty, we gave the belief up... and continued to give exactly the same as we had before when we were tithers.
Honestly, giving does feel much more rewarding and joyful now. I no longer feel like I'm doing something to avoid a curse. I feel like I'm giving freely and without compulsion, and it's become a true delight.
The percentage we give has not changed... but I feel like our hearts have. |
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4/29/19 3:55 pm
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Darrell Garrett |
| No one should give "because they have to" or to avoid a curse. If you want to go strictly by what we see in New Testament, then none of us are giving as we should. I give my tithe and offering because I get to and because I love giving to the Lord's work. The blessings are a byproduct, not the motive. |
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4/29/19 4:21 pm
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Darrell Garrett |
| By the way, I have told our people many, many times, if you are giving because you "have to" then put it back in your wallet or purse, and I mean it. When someone asks me, "do I have to tithe," I tell them you don't HAVE to do anything. You get to choose what you will do. |
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4/29/19 4:23 pm
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Da Sheik |
Simply put, it requires a hybrid of law and grace to say that tithing is mandatory for NT Christians. I think the tithe is a great model for giving, but I realize many of my peers don’t like the word “modelâ€. When you understand grace, you stop saying things like “do I have to?†and start pleading to participate in giving as the Macedonian believers did with Paul.
In my own experience, I’ve had members that tithed to the penny but God forbid they should be asked for any further involvement. Such is the dichotomy between law & grace. Law (by nature) seeks to do the bare minimum. Grace is extravagant ! |
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4/29/19 5:30 pm
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Darrell Garrett |
| Da Sheik wrote: | Simply put, it requires a hybrid of law and grace to say that tithing is mandatory for NT Christians. I think the tithe is a great model for giving, but I realize many of my peers don’t like the word “modelâ€. When you understand grace, you stop saying things like “do I have to?†and start pleading to participate in giving as the Macedonian believers did with Paul.
In my own experience, I’ve had members that tithed to the penny but God forbid they should be asked for any further involvement. Such is the dichotomy between law & grace. Law (by nature) seeks to do the bare minimum. Grace is extravagant ! |
There you go! |
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4/29/19 6:21 pm
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Cojak |
| Darrell Garrett wrote: | | Da Sheik wrote: | Simply put, it requires a hybrid of law and grace to say that tithing is mandatory for NT Christians. I think the tithe is a great model for giving, but I realize many of my peers don’t like the word “modelâ€. When you understand grace, you stop saying things like “do I have to?†and start pleading to participate in giving as the Macedonian believers did with Paul.
In my own experience, I’ve had members that tithed to the penny but God forbid they should be asked for any further involvement. Such is the dichotomy between law & grace. Law (by nature) seeks to do the bare minimum. Grace is extravagant ! |
There you go! |
Amen and Amen, I do admire how some can say what I wish I had said. OUr friend Da Sheik has a knack of that. Yes and Amen!
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4/29/19 9:12 pm
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revuriah |
This has honestly been a place I’ve wrestled for a long time. I pay my tithes. I check “yes†on my reports for tithing. But I am having a harder and harder time saying it will bring a curse on a born again follower of Christ if they don’t give 10% to the penny. What about the person that gives all they can but it amounts to 8%? Does God see their heart and honor their giving or does He say, “Sorry, child. That was 2% shy of tithe. No blessing or favor for you.â€
I’ve honestly been that guy. I hate that I’ve been there. I’m not now. But I really feel for those that are in that position.
I get to give. I want to give. And those that can’t quite hit 10% still have that desire to give to the Lord. I believe He honors them.
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4/30/19 7:52 am
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Link |
From what I gathered, flocks and herds were to be tithed, but I am unaware of references to laborers and merchants being commanded to tithe their wages and profits in the Old Testament.
Having land enabled Israelites to tithe from the land. But a widow could end up with no inheritance, and a fatherless child might be too small to work an inheritance. Levites had no inheritance and neither did strangers (foreigners.) These were the groups that were to recieve the tithe of the third year.
Just think about the widow, the type of person who would have received Biblical tithes. Many preachers preach tithes but do not make any efforts to put a widow-feeding program in place like the Jerusalem church did and like Paul wrote to Timothy about. There are preachers who will preach a curse at widows who do not tithe, but not use any of the tithe to help them, when widows in the Bible were recipients of one of the tithes. Is this just?
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4/30/19 9:22 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Link wrote: | | Just think about the widow, the type of person who would have received Biblical tithes. Many preachers preach tithes but do not make any efforts to put a widow-feeding program in place like the Jerusalem church did and like Paul wrote to Timothy about. There are preachers who will preach a curse at widows who do not tithe, but not use any of the tithe to help them, when widows in the Bible were recipients of one of the tithes. Is this just? |
This is super scary to think about. The judgment of ministers who scourge their people with OT texts about tithing but do not do anything to help widows. |
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4/30/19 9:26 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
| Link wrote: | From what I gathered, flocks and herds were to be tithed, but I am unaware of references to laborers and merchants being commanded to tithe their wages and profits in the Old Testament.
Having land enabled Israelites to tithe from the land. But a widow could end up with no inheritance, and a fatherless child might be too small to work an inheritance. Levites had no inheritance and neither did strangers (foreigners.) These were the groups that were to recieve the tithe of the third year.
Just think about the widow, the type of person who would have received Biblical tithes. Many preachers preach tithes but do not make any efforts to put a widow-feeding program in place like the Jerusalem church did and like Paul wrote to Timothy about. There are preachers who will preach a curse at widows who do not tithe, but not use any of the tithe to help them, when widows in the Bible were recipients of one of the tithes. Is this just? |
Agreed - it would be scary for me to ask for tithes and not do what the tithes did in the OT. If it's now the govts job to take car of (at least some of) those things - perhaps the govt should get some of the tithes, as well.
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4/30/19 10:01 am
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| Some thoughts... |
Aaron Scott |
Link,
Almost without fail, I have noticed that those who try to "loophole" out of tithing are some of the LEAST GENEROUS people in the church.
Another thing I have found is that folks who want to send their tithes to this or that place instead of to the local church they attend...are usually some of the least generous people. Why? First, while there is nothing wrong with occasionally directing your tithes to something that God has laid on your heart, it is also the case that sending your tithes elsewhere often allows a person to escape accountability. That is, the pastor or the treasurer often has no idea whether the person actually paid tithes, how much was given, etc. It is used, I think, as a ploy to escape accountability (at least for some). But what really STINKS about it is that a church member/attender wants to come and enjoy the services, soak up the air conditioning, partake of the programs,etc., without being a supportive as fairness would dictate.
I can easily make good argument FOR or AGAINST New Testament tithing, but in practice it is just often the case, it seems, that those who do not pay tithes--or don't pay tithes to the local church--are often just trying to find a way to do an end run around tithing (e.g., "I don't tithe because I want all my tithe to go to world missions," etc.)...or an end run about contributing to the support of a pastor they don't care for.
We are made kings and PRIESTS, the Bible tells us. Like Melchizedek, who was both a priest and a king. So I suppose that the pastor could make a case that, if he must be a priest before someone will tithe, then--boom!--the Bible says he's a priest.
Further, we also know that the worker is worthy of his hire. To try to keep money out of the hands of the pastor is suspect at best, and is likely a malicious attempt to undermine him.
Further, we know the dangers (see Ananias and Sapphira) of trying to game the system.
So, if someone doesn't want to pay tithes, THEN TELL THEM NOT TO PAY TITHES. At the same time, they should be permitted to have any leadership role in the church.
But if they are trying to weaponize tithes, look them right in the eye and tell them in a steely voice, "YOU CAN GO STRAIGHT TO...any other church but the one you pastor."
Many years ago, Karl Strader, who was then pastor of the Carpenter's Home Church in Lakeland--at the time the largest church in Florida, I imagine--said something on his radio program that really resonated with me.
He was taking written questions from the audience and answering them in a Biblical fashion. Someone ask about whether someone who didn't have any extra money should still have to tithe.
Bro. Strader had a great deal of wisdom, I thought, in his reply. He said that if a person didn't have enough money with which to tithe...then they needed to manage their money better.
BOOM! And that is the truth! Yes, you might find someone who truly, truly, truly cannot pay for even their basic necessities and still tithe. OK, fine. But when's the last time that was ever true of anyone?
Didn't the widow with the two mites find favor in the eyes of Jesus? It mattered in heaven!
What folks usually mean by not having enough money left to tithe is that they don't want to give that 10% to the church because they want to spend it on something else (not necessities).
But there's something far more important. Tithing is an act of worship, to some degree. It is saying that someone puts God above their wealth. It is saying something about priorities. And when we do such things, there is a SUPERNATURAL element that comes into play.
If it were JUST MONEY, then, yes, keep it, if you wish. But if it's about the Kingdom, then there is far more than money to be gained, for there is now a spiritual dimension. |
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4/30/19 11:43 am
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revuriah |
Aaron, not to throw shade on Bro. Strader, but I don’t necessarily agree with his thoughts. I’ve been that person that had cut everything and was needs only. Basic diet, no extras. I didn’t have room to truly tithe without things like rent being paid late, or missing car payments. It was a very difficult time. I wasn’t mismanaging my money. I simply didn’t make enough to support my family.
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4/30/19 12:36 pm
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sheepdogandy |
Jesus paid my tithes.
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4/30/19 12:48 pm
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| Re: Some thoughts... |
Nature Boy Florida |
| Aaron Scott wrote: |
Many years ago, Karl Strader, who was then pastor of the Carpenter's Home Church in Lakeland--at the time the largest church in Florida, I imagine--said something on his radio program that really resonated with me.
He was taking written questions from the audience and answering them in a Biblical fashion. Someone ask about whether someone who didn't have any extra money should still have to tithe.
Bro. Strader had a great deal of wisdom, I thought, in his reply. He said that if a person didn't have enough money with which to tithe...then they needed to manage their money better.
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Did Strader also have a great quip about accumulating debt that you don't intend to pay back? Or does God not have anything to say about debt? Perhaps John Kilpatrick could assist here.
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4/30/19 1:15 pm
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| Revuriah... |
Aaron Scott |
| revuriah wrote: | | Aaron, not to throw shade on Bro. Strader, but I don’t necessarily agree with his thoughts. I’ve been that person that had cut everything and was needs only. Basic diet, no extras. I didn’t have room to truly tithe without things like rent being paid late, or missing car payments. It was a very difficult time. I wasn’t mismanaging my money. I simply didn’t make enough to support my family. |
I think anyone understands that when someone truly cannot provide for their family, etc., that is an exceptional situation that demands understanding.
AT THE SAME TIME--and everyone has to do what they deem to be the right way on this--I would offer that if we are talking of tithes through the eyes of being nothing more than a business transaction, then, indeed, hold your money and take care of what needs to be taken care of.
On the other hand, I would hope that we also might see that giving when you don't have enough to spare for giving can perhaps cause one to find favor with God.
But Revuriah, I certainly would not want to at all indicate that you not do what YOU feel best for you and your family in such exceptional cases. And I feel confident that God fully and graciously understands in such situation. |
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4/30/19 1:27 pm
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