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When one of our churches are sold...
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Post When one of our churches are sold... roughridercog
What happens to any surplus money?
Can it be spent for any purpose?
Is it required to be used for planting new works?

Where is the checks and balances system?

Just asking the hard questions.
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Last edited by roughridercog on 7/15/19 8:34 am; edited 2 times in total
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4/4/19 6:50 am


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Post Darrell Garrett
Those are questions that need to be asked and DEMAND answers.
The Minutes clearly state what should be done, but "loopholes" have been utilized to circumvent the will of the General Assembly. Sooner or later the "secret" is going to get out and it is going to be an ugly scandal that could be the undoing of the Church of God. Monies are being misappropriated and they know it, justifying their actions by a clause that should have been removed from the 1994 Minutes, but was not. That clause does not circumvent the measure passed in 2010 and I predict that sooner or later it is going to get challenged in court and when it does... watch out for the implosion!
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4/4/19 9:07 am


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Post AdamJ
No checks and balance to my understanding. The complaint in our state is the money just gets used to pay the salary and administration expenses. No one can hold administration accountable. He holds their credentials in his hands. Hey, DOC
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4/17/19 7:54 pm


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Post Travis Johnson
AdamJ wrote:
No checks a balance to my understanding. The complaint in our state is the money just gets used to pay the salary and administration expenses. No one can hold administration accountable. He holds their credentials in his hands.


That can’t be real. If it was, you should talk to the Overseer and state council.

There is no provision for a state office to use proceeds from sold properties to pay salaries.

Now, if particular property is sold and the state office paid to cut the lawn, pay the mortgage or utilities while the defunct property was being sold, that money should be recouped by the state office and spent however it likes. That is fair and addressed by the GA.

There is no provision for the state office to recoup monies from the expenses of property A from the sale of property B. That should not happen in any state.

The General Assembly passed clear direction on that. I cant imagine a state doing that. If it is, the state council should address it. They are responsible for that as well...not only the state Overseer.
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4/17/19 8:18 pm


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Post AdamJ
Travis Johnson wrote:
AdamJ wrote:
No checks a balance to my understanding. The complaint in our state is the money just gets used to pay the salary and administration expenses. No one can hold administration accountable. He holds their credentials in his hands.


That can’t be real. If it was, you should talk to the Overseer and state council.

There is no provision for a state office to use proceeds from sold properties to pay salaries.

Now, if particular property is sold and the state office paid to cut the lawn, pay the mortgage or utilities while the defunct property was being sold, that money should be recouped by the state office and spent however it likes. That is fair and addressed by the GA.


There is no provision for the state office to recoup monies from the expenses of property A from the sale of property B. That should not happen in any state.

The General Assembly passed clear direction on that. I cant imagine a state doing that. If it is, the state council should address it. They are responsible for that as well...not only the state Overseer.


We know what the GA rulings are. We just have no power to enforce it. How can we sell multiple buildings and still have almost nothing for church planting. If you use the word misappropriation you can be destroyed. So
We just have to keep watching as we die.
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4/18/19 8:47 am


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Post Darrell Garrett
Travis Johnson wrote:
AdamJ wrote:
No checks a balance to my understanding. The complaint in our state is the money just gets used to pay the salary and administration expenses. No one can hold administration accountable. He holds their credentials in his hands.


That can’t be real. If it was, you should talk to the Overseer and state council.

There is no provision for a state office to use proceeds from sold properties to pay salaries.

Now, if particular property is sold and the state office paid to cut the lawn, pay the mortgage or utilities while the defunct property was being sold, that money should be recouped by the state office and spent however it likes. That is fair and addressed by the GA.

There is no provision for the state office to recoup monies from the expenses of property A from the sale of property B. That should not happen in any state.

The General Assembly passed clear direction on that. I cant imagine a state doing that. If it is, the state council should address it. They are responsible for that as well...not only the state Overseer.


Trust me, it is real. This is not pointing a finger at an AB because this has gone on for years, through at least 4 state administrative bishops. Ask Dow Moses why he turned in his credentials and left the COG. Ask many others. The COG has been cannibalizing itself for a long time and it has taken a serious toll on this state.
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Post Travis Johnson
The number 1 listed responsibility of the state council is oversight of this specific money.

A state overseer AND a state council are to appropriate money in the manner directed below. It’s a General assembly mandate. It simply says what it says. Both offices have a job to do...doesn’t mean it’s easy. But, it is very clear.

Quote:
II. Duties and Authorities

The State Council shall:

1. With the state overseer, have supervision of the state missions money, surplus tithes, state parsonage, campground, and all other funds received and disbursed by the state treasury.

The proceeds from the sale of property of disbanded churches, less expenses incurred by the state/ regional offices for that particular church, shall be disbursed exclusively for church assistance and church planting (73rd A., 2010).
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4/18/19 10:22 am


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Post Darrell Garrett
And this is the loophole they are using. I don't have a book of Minutes here, but there is a previous part from the 1994 Minutes that has not been removed and it has been determined that since that clause is still in the Minutes, it supersedes the 2010 passage you quoted. I'm no expert, but that would seem like a clear violation of the intent of the will of the General Assembly and a dereliction of duty. But that "loophole" is being used in multiple states to spend monies that should be going to strengthen and plant churches. Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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4/18/19 12:18 pm


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Post Darrell Garrett
The part they are using from the 1994 Minutes is section 42 Church Property. Look at Item V part B. It is on page 211.

Thank you to the one who corrected my section number on this and provided the link to the 1994 Minutes.
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4/18/19 12:43 pm


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Post Travis Johnson
Cite it/quote it. Acts-dicted
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4/18/19 3:29 pm


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Post cogcia
Travis Johnson wrote:
The number 1 listed responsibility of the state council is oversight of this specific money.

A state overseer AND a state council are to appropriate money in the manner directed below. It’s a General assembly mandate. It simply says what it says. Both offices have a job to do...doesn’t mean it’s easy. But, it is very clear.

Quote:
II. Duties and Authorities

The State Council shall:

1. With the state overseer, have supervision of the state missions money, surplus tithes, state parsonage, campground, and all other funds received and disbursed by the state treasury.

The proceeds from the sale of property of disbanded churches, less expenses incurred by the state/ regional offices for that particular church, shall be disbursed exclusively for church assistance and church planting (73rd A., 2010).


That looks really good on paper. When you see an AB taking cereditials of anyone that opposes him you either let him have his way, hold your peace or walk away. How can a state councilmen hold an AB accountable unless he is more connected to the COG system than the AB. I’ve seen them try to absolutely no effect. I’ve also seen a couple Councilmen that carried enough influence to do it more effectively.
If an AB rules with an iron fist they are not looking for Council. Unless it helps them get their way.
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4/18/19 4:42 pm


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Post Travis Johnson
cogcia wrote:
Travis Johnson wrote:
The number 1 listed responsibility of the state council is oversight of this specific money.

A state overseer AND a state council are to appropriate money in the manner directed below. It’s a General assembly mandate. It simply says what it says. Both offices have a job to do...doesn’t mean it’s easy. But, it is very clear.

Quote:
II. Duties and Authorities

The State Council shall:

1. With the state overseer, have supervision of the state missions money, surplus tithes, state parsonage, campground, and all other funds received and disbursed by the state treasury.

The proceeds from the sale of property of disbanded churches, less expenses incurred by the state/ regional offices for that particular church, shall be disbursed exclusively for church assistance and church planting (73rd A., 2010).


That looks really good on paper. When you see an AB taking cereditials of anyone that opposes him you either let him have his way, hold your peace or walk away. How can a state councilmen hold an AB accountable unless he is more connected to the COG system than the AB. I’ve seen them try to absolutely no effect. I’ve also seen a couple Councilmen that carried enough influence to do it more effectively.
If an AB rules with an iron fist they are not looking for Council. Unless it helps them get their way.


I don’t think an overseer can just take someone's Credentials.
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4/18/19 4:48 pm


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Post State Office takes the money MI6
They spend the money from SOLD Property on anything... property, payroll,
insurance payments, legal fees, utilities ... just pick a topic. State Budgets are tight and there is not any extra money. Panic mode has set in. AND the Good Ole Boy system is still in place.


Last edited by MI6 on 4/20/19 11:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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4/18/19 5:51 pm


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Post AdamJ
Travis Johnson wrote:
cogcia wrote:
Travis Johnson wrote:
The number 1 listed responsibility of the state council is oversight of this specific money.

A state overseer AND a state council are to appropriate money in the manner directed below. It’s a General assembly mandate. It simply says what it says. Both offices have a job to do...doesn’t mean it’s easy. But, it is very clear.

Quote:
II. Duties and Authorities

The State Council shall:

1. With the state overseer, have supervision of the state missions money, surplus tithes, state parsonage, campground, and all other funds received and disbursed by the state treasury.

The proceeds from the sale of property of disbanded churches, less expenses incurred by the state/ regional offices for that particular church, shall be disbursed exclusively for church assistance and church planting (73rd A., 2010).


That looks really good on paper. When you see an AB taking cereditials of anyone that opposes him you either let him have his way, hold your peace or walk away. How can a state councilmen hold an AB accountable unless he is more connected to the COG system than the AB. I’ve seen them try to absolutely no effect. I’ve also seen a couple Councilmen that carried enough influence to do it more effectively.
If an AB rules with an iron fist they are not looking for Council. Unless it helps them get their way.


I don’t think an overseer can just take someone's Credentials.


Brother I wouldn’t be posting under a pen name if that was true. He can take your credentials. He can take your church. We must be in 2 different denominations. We call it the COG graveyard in our state. We had a state leader challenge the AB about removing a pastor from his church with no notice to be told I’m the AB and can do whatever I want to do. And he did.
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4/18/19 9:00 pm


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Post Travis Johnson
AdamJ wrote:
Travis Johnson wrote:
cogcia wrote:
Travis Johnson wrote:
The number 1 listed responsibility of the state council is oversight of this specific money.

A state overseer AND a state council are to appropriate money in the manner directed below. It’s a General assembly mandate. It simply says what it says. Both offices have a job to do...doesn’t mean it’s easy. But, it is very clear.

Quote:
II. Duties and Authorities

The State Council shall:

1. With the state overseer, have supervision of the state missions money, surplus tithes, state parsonage, campground, and all other funds received and disbursed by the state treasury.

The proceeds from the sale of property of disbanded churches, less expenses incurred by the state/ regional offices for that particular church, shall be disbursed exclusively for church assistance and church planting (73rd A., 2010).


That looks really good on paper. When you see an AB taking cereditials of anyone that opposes him you either let him have his way, hold your peace or walk away. How can a state councilmen hold an AB accountable unless he is more connected to the COG system than the AB. I’ve seen them try to absolutely no effect. I’ve also seen a couple Councilmen that carried enough influence to do it more effectively.
If an AB rules with an iron fist they are not looking for Council. Unless it helps them get their way.


I don’t think an overseer can just take someone's Credentials.


Brother I wouldn’t be posting under a pen name if that was true. He can take your credentials. He can take your church. We must be in 2 different denominations. We call it the COG graveyard in our state. We had a state leader challenge the AB about removing a pastor from his church with no notice to be told I’m the AB and can do whatever I want to do. And he did.


Without getting into the particulars of any state because I just wouldn’t know what I’m talking about, I can say that an overseer cannot take something he didn’t give.

State Trustees don’t trump the state Overseer or state council on properties. The General Assembly gave that authority to ABs and Councils. And Trustees serve at the pleasure of the overseer.

And, State Overseers don’t trump the General Overseer on credentials. In order for a minister to take your credentials, you would need to be brought up on charges and brought before a trial board. They can’t just be taken. It’s impossible.

There is process for all of this. If the state council isn’t doing its job, that’s another story. State councils in every state need to watch the property. We have indeed sold off tons of property and have nothing to show for it...which is why I wrote and submitted the 2010 motion on property. If someone has since sold that property without the ABs knowledge, he needs to find out why someone subverted his authority. If an overseer sold property and distributed money improperly, the state council needs to find out why an aB subverted their authority. That’s just the way it is.

That motion passed by a substantial margin because the ministers and members don’t want to see hard won properties be cannibalized to fund administrative overhead that is too big and needs to be artificially propped up, which is what happens when sold property is funding admin in that manner.

But, that clearly is not just an issue for state overseers. It’s also a job for the state council. Leadership is bleedership. Sometimes, you just have to have real conversations among yourselves.

Now, what a state Overseer can do is remove you from a church. He has that power. If something has been done improperly, there is a way to deal with that.

Along those lines, I long decided not to use a pen name for that reason. If I was going to get knifed, I decided it would be best done in the middle of the arena and not in a dark alley.

That’s just me having some really honest talk.
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4/18/19 10:06 pm


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Post Travis Johnson
I’d still like to see that other loophole that is being referred to when you get a chance. Acts-dicted
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4/18/19 10:09 pm


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Post Judge Roy Bean
Travis Johnson wrote:
AdamJ wrote:
Travis Johnson wrote:
cogcia wrote:
Travis Johnson wrote:
The number 1 listed responsibility of the state council is oversight of this specific money.

A state overseer AND a state council are to appropriate money in the manner directed below. It’s a General assembly mandate. It simply says what it says. Both offices have a job to do...doesn’t mean it’s easy. But, it is very clear.

Quote:
II. Duties and Authorities

The State Council shall:

1. With the state overseer, have supervision of the state missions money, surplus tithes, state parsonage, campground, and all other funds received and disbursed by the state treasury.

The proceeds from the sale of property of disbanded churches, less expenses incurred by the state/ regional offices for that particular church, shall be disbursed exclusively for church assistance and church planting (73rd A., 2010).


That looks really good on paper. When you see an AB taking cereditials of anyone that opposes him you either let him have his way, hold your peace or walk away. How can a state councilmen hold an AB accountable unless he is more connected to the COG system than the AB. I’ve seen them try to absolutely no effect. I’ve also seen a couple Councilmen that carried enough influence to do it more effectively.
If an AB rules with an iron fist they are not looking for Council. Unless it helps them get their way.


I don’t think an overseer can just take someone's Credentials.


Brother I wouldn’t be posting under a pen name if that was true. He can take your credentials. He can take your church. We must be in 2 different denominations. We call it the COG graveyard in our state. We had a state leader challenge the AB about removing a pastor from his church with no notice to be told I’m the AB and can do whatever I want to do. And he did.


Without getting into the particulars of any state because I just wouldn’t know what I’m talking about, I can say that an overseer cannot take something he didn’t give.

State Trustees don’t trump the state Overseer or state council on properties. The General Assembly gave that authority to ABs and Councils. And Trustees serve at the pleasure of the overseer.

And, State Overseers don’t trump the General Overseer on credentials. In order for a minister to take your credentials, you would need to be brought up on charges and brought before a trial board. They can’t just be taken. It’s impossible.

There is process for all of this. If the state council isn’t doing its job, that’s another story. State councils in every state need to watch the property. We have indeed sold off tons of property and have nothing to show for it...which is why I wrote and submitted the 2010 motion on property. If someone has since sold that property without the ABs knowledge, he needs to find out why someone subverted his authority. If an overseer sold property and distributed money improperly, the state council needs to find out why an aB subverted their authority. That’s just the way it is.

That motion passed by a substantial margin because the ministers and members don’t want to see hard won properties be cannibalized to fund administrative overhead that is too big and needs to be artificially propped up, which is what happens when sold property is funding admin in that manner.

But, that clearly is not just an issue for state overseers. It’s also a job for the state council. Leadership is bleedership. Sometimes, you just have to have real conversations among yourselves.

Now, what a state Overseer can do is remove you from a church. He has that power. If something has been done improperly, there is a way to deal with that.

Along those lines, I long decided not to use a pen name for that reason. If I was going to get knifed, I decided it would be best done in the middle of the arena and not in a dark alley.

That’s just me having some really honest talk.


We are seeing a movement starting, I tell you what. We are seeing some mighty good fellas leave the denomination because of bullying and intimidation techniques used by some of these AB's. If a fella doesn't do what an AB wants, he can threaten to pull their papers by the thin charge of insubordination.
As a result, you can have a state council of yes men or men who don't want to commit ministerial suicide by standing up to a bully.
So what happens? You start seeing multiple good men going independent. Some even take their church body with them. They realize that pastoring is tough enough without having your overseer fight against you. They realize they don't really need an overseer. They leave and continue to minister the gospel.
We all need to look at our individual states. How many good men have left the Church of God due to a bully? Now fellas, I've seen a lot in my time on the bench.
I've seen churches pastored to death. Now we are seeing some of our states overseered to death.
Maybe some time in the bear cage would straighten these fellas out. Maybe I need to get a few more bears and cages.
But it ain't right, Intell you what.
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4/19/19 7:19 am


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Post Mat
Judge Roy Bean wrote:
Travis Johnson wrote:
AdamJ wrote:
Travis Johnson wrote:
cogcia wrote:
Travis Johnson wrote:
The number 1 listed responsibility of the state council is oversight of this specific money.

A state overseer AND a state council are to appropriate money in the manner directed below. It’s a General assembly mandate. It simply says what it says. Both offices have a job to do...doesn’t mean it’s easy. But, it is very clear.

Quote:
II. Duties and Authorities

The State Council shall:

1. With the state overseer, have supervision of the state missions money, surplus tithes, state parsonage, campground, and all other funds received and disbursed by the state treasury.

The proceeds from the sale of property of disbanded churches, less expenses incurred by the state/ regional offices for that particular church, shall be disbursed exclusively for church assistance and church planting (73rd A., 2010).


That looks really good on paper. When you see an AB taking cereditials of anyone that opposes him you either let him have his way, hold your peace or walk away. How can a state councilmen hold an AB accountable unless he is more connected to the COG system than the AB. I’ve seen them try to absolutely no effect. I’ve also seen a couple Councilmen that carried enough influence to do it more effectively.
If an AB rules with an iron fist they are not looking for Council. Unless it helps them get their way.


I don’t think an overseer can just take someone's Credentials.


Brother I wouldn’t be posting under a pen name if that was true. He can take your credentials. He can take your church. We must be in 2 different denominations. We call it the COG graveyard in our state. We had a state leader challenge the AB about removing a pastor from his church with no notice to be told I’m the AB and can do whatever I want to do. And he did.


Without getting into the particulars of any state because I just wouldn’t know what I’m talking about, I can say that an overseer cannot take something he didn’t give.

State Trustees don’t trump the state Overseer or state council on properties. The General Assembly gave that authority to ABs and Councils. And Trustees serve at the pleasure of the overseer.

And, State Overseers don’t trump the General Overseer on credentials. In order for a minister to take your credentials, you would need to be brought up on charges and brought before a trial board. They can’t just be taken. It’s impossible.

There is process for all of this. If the state council isn’t doing its job, that’s another story. State councils in every state need to watch the property. We have indeed sold off tons of property and have nothing to show for it...which is why I wrote and submitted the 2010 motion on property. If someone has since sold that property without the ABs knowledge, he needs to find out why someone subverted his authority. If an overseer sold property and distributed money improperly, the state council needs to find out why an aB subverted their authority. That’s just the way it is.

That motion passed by a substantial margin because the ministers and members don’t want to see hard won properties be cannibalized to fund administrative overhead that is too big and needs to be artificially propped up, which is what happens when sold property is funding admin in that manner.

But, that clearly is not just an issue for state overseers. It’s also a job for the state council. Leadership is bleedership. Sometimes, you just have to have real conversations among yourselves.

Now, what a state Overseer can do is remove you from a church. He has that power. If something has been done improperly, there is a way to deal with that.

Along those lines, I long decided not to use a pen name for that reason. If I was going to get knifed, I decided it would be best done in the middle of the arena and not in a dark alley.

That’s just me having some really honest talk.


We are seeing a movement starting, I tell you what. We are seeing some mighty good fellas leave the denomination because of bullying and intimidation techniques used by some of these AB's. If a fella doesn't do what an AB wants, he can threaten to pull their papers by the thin charge of insubordination.
As a result, you can have a state council of yes men or men who don't want to commit ministerial suicide by standing up to a bully.
So what happens? You start seeing multiple good men going independent. Some even take their church body with them. They realize that pastoring is tough enough without having your overseer fight against you. They realize they don't really need an overseer. They leave and continue to minister the gospel.
We all need to look at our individual states. How many good men have left the Church of God due to a bully? Now fellas, I've seen a lot in my time on the bench.
I've seen churches pastored to death. Now we are seeing some of our states overseered to death.
Maybe some time in the bear cage would straighten these fellas out. Maybe I need to get a few more bears and cages.
But it ain't right, Intell you what.


Not sure what a "bear cage" is, but there is an old saying, "people do not change until they hurt enough." The loss of promising pastors and the churches they will develop, income decline from "zero sum" policies, the use of authority to maintain position, will contribute to change in any denomination sooner or later. The problem is, some people would rather "rule in hell than serve in heaven" as the saying goes. Better to have the title and position than to face the prospect of returning to being a pastor. Here's a third old saying, "once they see the city how you going to keep them on the farm." Once a man is in a position of power, has the title and the benefits, there is little inclination for personal sacrifice, but great willingness to make the subornation pay the price. If you don't like what your leaders are doing, stop sending them money, stop feeding the bear!

Mat
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4/19/19 10:23 am


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Post Darrell Garrett
Quote:
Once a man is in a position of power, has the title and the benefits, there is little inclination for personal sacrifice, but great willingness to make the subornation pay the price. If you don't like what your leaders are doing, stop sending them money, stop feeding the bear!


Sadly, this is happening again and again as people have had enough and are departing from the denomination. In the last week I have spoken with 2 people/families who attended where I used to pastor. Both have been a part of the COG for more than 40 years and both indicated the same thing; that they've had and seen enough and are leaving. One person said to me that she had seen the handwriting on the wall and knew that she was feeding system rather than a church and she and her husband have given their last dime to the COG. Unless God steps in and changes things and hearts, it will most likely lead to yet another location where we used to have a COG.
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4/19/19 11:29 am


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Post roughridercog
Darrell Garrett wrote:
Quote:
Once a man is in a position of power, has the title and the benefits, there is little inclination for personal sacrifice, but great willingness to make the subornation pay the price. If you don't like what your leaders are doing, stop sending them money, stop feeding the bear!


Sadly, this is happening again and again as people have had enough and are departing from the denomination. In the last week I have spoken with 2 people/families who attended where I used to pastor. Both have been a part of the COG for more than 40 years and both indicated the same thing; that they've had and seen enough and are leaving. One person said to me that she had seen the handwriting on the wall and knew that she was feeding system rather than a church and she and her husband have given their last dime to the COG. Unless God steps in and changes things and hearts, it will most likely lead to yet another location where we used to have a COG.


But somehow the kingdom of God continues.
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