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 What does "perish" mean? |
Aaron Scott |
| Quote: | | For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. |
It came to me this morning that this verse does NOT say "so that everyone will not go to hell and burn forever and ever," which is typically our standard approach.
How can one perish if he/she is going to burn forever? Isn't that pretty much the opposite of perishing? In fact, it seems to me that a person in hell would WANT to perish!
At the same time, if Jesus' story is giving us key truths about hell (i.e., the story about the rich man and Lazarus), then we are led to believe that a person does NOT perish in hell, but is cognizant, etc.
But let's say that line one more time another way: "...a person does not perish in HELL."
Since hell is cast into the Lake of Fire, is it possible that they perish there? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
2/12/19 8:05 am
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diakoneo |
Okay and also explain the term "outer darkness". As in cast into outer darkness.
I believe hell to be a place of eternal separation from God. As heaven is described in best of human terms...streets of gold, walls of Jasper etc. Hell is described in terms of worst in human terms
.. torment and burning.
Our souls are eternal. This is a biblical contextual truth and a truth taught in nature( Romans 1:17-20) There will be a judgment. It will be final and eternal. It will occur at the resurrection of the dead...all dead will be resurrected...those in Christ first. If the judgment is not eternal, why bother resurrecting unrighteous dead? Eternal separation from, He who is love, and right and good and light and life and peace... everything glorious and wonderful in our universe is much worse than the physical pain of fire just as being in the presence of that Great one who created us eternally is greater than streets of gold etc.
And it is all because of the gospel. All because of Jesus!
Wrath of God is revealed in nature and the Love of God was revealed on the cross. So let's preach the gospel!
That's my theory of hell, Aaron. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
2/12/19 8:41 am
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Da Sheik |
| Just as I have two lives now (one biological, the other eternal), I look at death the same way. I don’t want to derail your thread but I have often wondered if “outer darkness†would be tantamount to floating in the abyss of outer space. What a horrific eternal fate! |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
2/12/19 6:09 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
I challenge you to listen to Dr Edward Fudge. He teaches it exactly the way I believe it.
https://youtu.be/oHUPpmbTOV4 |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
2/13/19 7:31 am
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diakoneo |
Ok, I did.
Many teach tradition of men rather than doctrine of scripture, I agree. I guess I disagree the most regarding his view of eternality of the soul. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
2/16/19 7:27 am
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| Some very interesting Scripture to consider for this conversation |
Brandon Bohannon |
Revelation 2:11 New King James Version (NKJV)
11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.†’
Revelation 20:6 New King James Version (NKJV)
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.â€
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Proverbs 3:5-6; John 13:34-35; Acts 1:8 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 571
2/16/19 11:08 am
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Carolyn Smith |
This is what the Strong's concordance says about perish:
" Definition
to destroy
to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
render useless
to kill
to declare that one must be put to death
metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
to destroy
to lose"
I would say that this definition makes the most sense...
"to declare that one must be put to death
metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed."
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5910
2/16/19 12:31 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| diakoneo wrote: |
Ok, I did.
Many teach tradition of men rather than doctrine of scripture, I agree. I guess I disagree the most regarding his view of eternality of the soul. |
The soul is not immortal. There is no scripture for it. John 3:16 is clear. Immortality comes only with the belief in Jesus. All others perish. This is the basis for eternal torment. If you believe the soul is immortal, it must exists someplace and the lake of fire cannot destroy it. But once you come to the correct conclusion that the soul is not immortal, it is easy to see that believers get immortality and non-believers don’t. Thus, the lake of fire being the second death. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
2/16/19 7:50 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| Carolyn Smith wrote: | This is what the Strong's concordance says about perish:
" Definition
to destroy
to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
render useless
to kill
to declare that one must be put to death
metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
to destroy
to lose"
I would say that this definition makes the most sense...
"to declare that one must be put to death
metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed." |
You can’t both be eternal and perish. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
2/16/19 7:52 pm
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| I had an appt with my tax guy this morning who is a christian... |
caseyleejones |
We were talWdoing tax stuff...anyway, he asked me some questions posed this....
1) If you believe a family member is in hell, would you do anything to get them out? If so, does this not mean that persons mercy is greater than Gods?
2) Would you have 2 children if you knew one was going to hell?
3) A person does not accept Jesus in this lifetime and ....so they are to spend the rest of their life in burning torment for billions and billions of years? Does the punishment really fit the crime? |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11794
2/17/19 4:05 pm
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| Re: I had an appt with my tax guy this morning who is a christian... |
Eddie Robbins |
| caseyleejones wrote: | We were talWdoing tax stuff...anyway, he asked me some questions posed this....
1) If you believe a family member is in hell, would you do anything to get them out? If so, does this not mean that persons mercy is greater than Gods?
2) Would you have 2 children if you knew one was going to hell?
3) A person does not accept Jesus in this lifetime and ....so they are to spend the rest of their life in burning torment for billions and billions of years? Does the punishment really fit the crime? |
These thoughts started me on the road of studying the scriptures and I found that what I had been taught all of my life is not true. God does NOT keep people alive for the sole purpose of torturing them. It’s not God’s way. He is not going to command that you love your enemies while He is torturing His. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
2/17/19 6:15 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
I have enough going on in my life that I can't afford to devote mental resources to a complicated, largely unanswerable question like this one, especially when the outcome does not change my approach toward evangelism. Perhaps we have at times been motivated to share the gospel by a desire to see people avoid the fire of hell, but our motivation to share the gospel should always come from our desire to share our knowledge of Christ's inexpressible glory. Not evangelizing so that people can avoid a bad outcome, but evangelizing so that people can enjoy a glorious one.
However, I will share a struggle that I have on this issue. When discussing the attributes of God, theologians classify them broadly as communicable or incommunicable, based on whether God imparts a given attribute in whole or in part to His creation. God's omnipresence, omniscience, and self-sufficiency are obvious examples of incommunicable attributes. The attributes He communicates, or imparts, include love, mercy, kindness, justice, and so on. These are attributes we express because they have been communicated to us in the process of us having been made in the image of our Creator.
With all that said, eternality is clearly and obviously an incommunicable attribute. God never began and will never end. On the other hand, we have a discrete point of creation, before which we didn't exist. This is an attribute of God that was not communicated to us. I have always been taught (mostly by implication) that once we are created, we essentially become eternal at that point. But I don't think that conclusion necessarily follows from a theological understanding of eternality as an attribute of God. Eternal life is something we receive in Christ -- the scripture talks repeatedly about people believing in Christ and as a result living forever and never dying. If eternality was communicated, this would not be a necessary impartation. Our eternal outlook would be a matter of location alone; we would be eternal in any case.
All THAT said, as of now, I hold to a traditional/conservative view of this issue including a notion of eternal conscious torment. But I no longer view annihilationism as heterodoxy. And in any case, I would strongly encourage all believers to ground their pursuit of evangelism in a desire to share God's glory rather than a desire to spare someone from hell's flames. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
2/17/19 7:11 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
Just to be clear. My view is not that anyone escapes hell’s flames. Hell is a real place. I also don’t believe in soul sleep nor that when unbelievers die, they no longer exist at that point. There is still dying and then the judgement. I believe that unbelievers will be sent to the lake of fire where their souls will burn up and will cease to exist from that point. That’s why it is called the second death.
It is a significant doctrine when it comes to evangelism. Many people reject a God who would be so cruel as to keep people alive just so they can be tortured forever. If that’s your “loving†God, we want nothing to do with it. God is all loving but still has warned throughout scripture the fate of the unbeliever. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
2/18/19 7:39 am
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| Some thoughts about hell.... |
Aaron Scott |
I tend to think that burning alive for a trillion years is a level of barbarity and torture that we would resist in other religions. But consider that the human sacrifice of the Aztecs is far more gentle than what we often teach will happen to unbelievers.
I'm thinking God is better than that.
It is MY OPINION that when hell is cast into the Lake of Fire, that is the end of those who were in hell. Again, my opinion. As with others, if "perish" means "live forever in torment," that's not actually perishing--in fact, it is the nightmarish opposite of it.
AT THE SAME TIME, hell is so terrible that Jesus said to cut off your arm or foot, or pluck out your eye, to avoid hell. And while a person may indeed perish at some point, hell is so horrific that one should do whatever it takes to not spend even 10 second there!
If nothing else, the enormity that you squandered the opportunity to spend ETERNITY with loved ones in the presence of the Lord, the opportunity to be reunited with old friends, etc., the opportunity to have everything restored in your body, mind, emotions, memories...that will truly be hell. Nothing will hurt more than knowing "This didn't have to happen this way--I could have gotten saved; and now I am seeing my loved ones for the last time."
What a way to perish--knowing you didn't have to, knowing that you could have been one of those in new bodies and with eternity of happiness ahead. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
2/18/19 12:09 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
Look, hell is a real place.
One man, in a story told by Jesus, asked if Lazarus could dip his finger in water and drip it on his tongue to quench a thirst from the flames that were hot.
What do we know:
The good and evil folks were separated - even before Jesus had died for our sins. ( I wonder how big that good group was?)
It was hot enough for a dude to be mighty thirsty. He didn't say he was burning - but the visible flames were making it hot around there.
The dude in hell didn't want to be there anymore. Interestingly - he didn't accuse Abraham or God of being unfair. He seemed to accept that he was there justly.
He was also still compassionate enough that he really didn't want any of his family coming there. So there was some "good" in the man in hell (they weren't all Mansons and Hitlers) - yet he was still there. And he didn't seem to know of a way to pray his way out of a temporary purgatory area - or whatever some fancy as being possible.
Jesus didn't seem to think it was unfair - and that God was not nearly as compassionate as the man in hell - but Christians today feel that way - WHY?
| Quote: | Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
2/18/19 12:25 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
This is the clinching scripture for me. Matthew 10:28
“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul but rather fear Him who is able to destroy soul and body in hell.â€
First thought. If someone is burning in hell for eternity, why would he fear having his body and soul destroyed? Woul he welcome that to get away from the torture? Second thought. This is EXACTLY what happens. God destroys both body AND soul in hell. Never to be tortured again for all eternity. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
2/18/19 12:46 pm
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UncleJD |
So you guys are saying that there is hell for a long time (thousands of years possibly), but one day God wlll call it off on the Final Judgement and THEN they will just be burned up (the rest of the way)?
And what happened to the teaching that Man is Body, Soul (the soul being the mind, will and emotions), and Spirit? So you've explained that the body and soul are destroyed, what about the Spirit? |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3139
2/26/19 10:17 am
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| UncleJD |
Aaron Scott |
| UncleJD wrote: | So you guys are saying that there is hell for a long time (thousands of years possibly), but one day God wlll call it off on the Final Judgement and THEN they will just be burned up (the rest of the way)?
And what happened to the teaching that Man is Body, Soul (the soul being the mind, will and emotions), and Spirit? So you've explained that the body and soul are destroyed, what about the Spirit? |
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7 |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
2/26/19 11:49 am
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| Re: UncleJD |
UncleJD |
| Aaron Scott wrote: |
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7 |
Exactly, then what will God do with it? |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3139
2/26/19 12:31 pm
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| Everlasting = Never ending = Eternal |
famousflavius |
Willy Wonka made the everlasting gobstopper and every kid can understand the meaning of that.
People want to create a god in their own image. Nobody wants to think that sin has such serious consequences. Jesus came to live and suffer great torment so we would not have to experience everlasting seperation from God. If it wasnt so serious why did Jesus do what he did?
“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.â€
â€â€Matthew‬ â€25:46‬ â€KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/mat.25.46.kjv
One of the first lies of the devil was, “And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:â€
â€â€Genesis‬ â€3:4‬ â€KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/gen.3.4.kjv |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2447
2/26/19 7:10 pm
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