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 Pro-Life movement is dead in the water (moving topic off of the racism thread) |
UncleJD |
I'm sorry the racism discussion got off track with the pro-life discussion. Lets pick it back up here as I think its an important topic. Here's the last part of that discussion pasted here.
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | UncleJD wrote: | The "pro-life" movement as it exists now, has failed, utterly. The culture of death has increased in America and the political side of the movement has never, in 45 years of election promises, achieved anything other than a few feel good "bills" here and there all destined to be struck down by the courts.
The movement is so used to losing, that they would be ecstatic just to regulate abortion a little bit! They no longer speak in terms of ending it, its more like "no baby should be aborted in the third-trimester", or "lets de-fund Planned Parenthood". As if ending a little subsidy or two would at least make them feel like they amount to something.
I hope that if they ever came for my arms and legs and skull, that the people who supposedly were my neighbors and friends wouldn't be so anemic in their defense of me as to be content with demanding that my mutilation "not be with our taxes!" |
So what course of action would you recommend?
What clear, concrete steps would you urge the pro-life movement to take to end abortion in the US? |
Well Dave, that would be a really good discussion to be had with a lot of people participating. I am just pointing out the futility of what has NOT worked at all, and to continue to do it the same way is insane. I think if you look at the abolitionist movement of the 1800s, you'd get a better idea of how it could go. I'm not talking about the war either, I'm talking about the changing of hearts and minds about slavery as EVIL that happened among Christians in that day. Sure most pro-life people in the church hate abortion, but there is WAY too much compromise, so much so that I hear "pro-life" people all the time using the language of death from the other side (such-and-such trimester, late-term, women's choice, etc...), not to mention the energy spent to "defund PP" (as if that will make anything OK). I believe it starts with a much stronger conviction in the church. But again, its a really big topic. I just wanted to vent about the extreme failure that is the current political-only/mostly version of the "pro-life" movement.
| caseyleejones wrote: | abortion?
I have heard women within the church...saved...love God and all say....
I oppose abortion and would not have one ....but... I don't feel it's my place to stop a woman from having one.
The question arises, is a 4 week fetus actually life with a God given spirit? Many see the first few weeks as a bundle of cells.
I'm not even sure the church is convinced it's wrong. |
You're absolutely right! That's part of what I'm talking about. The Church itself needs a revival before we can hope to end abortion. Right now,we seem to be stuck in the pragmatic, baby-steps, mode and we are merging our opinion with those you mention to where we are happy with "regulation" of abortion instead of taking nothing less than abolition of it. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3138
2/4/19 11:42 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
I think all of the church agrees that killing a baby at 9 months is murder - that is why it is a good thing that the true agenda of the left has come out.
The constitutional rulings allowing this must be changed. I don't see a way forward unless they are changed.
Just like the 2nd amendment must be altered if gun control is to become a reality.
Currently they are both in force - and can't be altered until the justices change their interpretation of the "living document" itself.
Otherwise - we really do need to physically close them with our sit-ins and the like...because that is all that is available to us at this point.
Or get signatures in 2/3 of the states to get a constitutional amendment on the ballot. My guess is NY and others like it won't go along.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
2/4/19 12:17 pm
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UncleJD |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | I think all of the church agrees that killing a baby at 9 months is murder - |
The "at 9 months" was also agreed on by the world for the most part. Why would the Church have the same standards? I think the church has to wake up. Our neighbors, the least of these (literally), are being torn apart, limb from limb, sliced up, impaled, in the womb of the one person on earth who should love them the most. This is unacceptable! The churches need to show their people the truth. When most people are shown the hideous nature of this sin, they will wake up I believe. When the abolitionists started appealing to the churches in the 1850s, things began to change. How many churches spend even 10% of their time on this topic when, I believe, it is the biggest human crisis on our planet. We need to seek to change the environment of our church that would allow for debate within it, only then will we have a credible witness along with the courage and conviction it will take to change the hearts of everyone else.
To borrow from what I heard the Down Syndrome speaker say "I'm not seeking to make abortion illegal, I seek to make it unthinkable" |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3138
2/4/19 12:31 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
With any discussion of what "the church" does or doesn't do, it's important to separate the visible church from the invisible church (a task, admittedly, that's impossible to us and will not be completed until the Christ returns to consummate His kingdom). Are these statements true of the visible church? For sure. Are they true of the invisible church? It doesn't seem that way. And if that's the case, than it's regeneration, rather than revival, that is needed.
| UncleJD wrote: | | To borrow from what I heard the Down Syndrome speaker say "I'm not seeking to make abortion illegal, I seek to make it unthinkable" |
That reminds me of a tweet I saw this morning that I absolutely loved. It was a comment on a tweet by a young woman who was announcing she had become the first person with Downs syndrome to attend Goldsmiths University.
The commenter said, "I love/hate this. I love and celebrate her accomplishment. BUT, this woman has nothing to prove; I am sick to death of a culture that makes any human think they have to prove their existence is good. A culture of eugenics is profoundly unequal, rotten, and shameful."
https://twitter.com/jennfrey/status/1092157755757072384 |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
2/4/19 1:11 pm
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UncleJD |
When its a significant number of people that claim to be Christian, and claim to be "pro-life", yet make statements that sound just like the death dealers, then I believe the churches need to be dealing with their own congregations in preaching and teaching about this evil. From my own experience, the church probably spends less than an hour or two per year dealing with abortion. Is that your experience as well? What do you think the percentage is in general, specifically in regards to those churches that consider themselves pro-life?
I saw another FB meme a few minutes ago that said "NY is killing babies, God is going to show up"
Well, yeah, He is, be it today, or in the Judgement. But when is the Church going to show up? As far as I know, New York has been killing babies since 1970 (before RVW), and by their own stats, they kill nearly a third of all babies. So while I'm glad there is some more outrage than usual, it is over something that has yet to actually take place (law was just passed). Where is the outrage over the fact that there have been MILLIIONS of babies slaughtered in the womb (and out of it) for 50 years in New York. If one third of your neighbors were being slaughtered, would it take that long to get upset? |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3138
2/4/19 1:29 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
The church needs to forget the rapture and educate itself on Article 5.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
2/4/19 10:08 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
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Quiet Wyatt |
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| About those ‘exceptions’... |
Quiet Wyatt |
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p5harri |
Dr Patrick Johnston is not a solid reasonable source for information on abortions.
_________________
We are beating the bushes for mice and the lions are tearing us apart. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1705
2/4/19 11:53 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| p5harri wrote: | | Dr Patrick Johnston is not a solid reasonable source for information on abortions. |
Refute his plain logic if you can. (You can’t). |
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Posts: 12792
2/4/19 11:59 pm
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p5harri |
Never mind. Not worth my time.
_________________
We are beating the bushes for mice and the lions are tearing us apart. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1705
2/5/19 12:16 am
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UncleJD |
| As expected, the Supreme Court struck down another pro-life half measure. But by all means, lets keep up the charade. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3138
2/8/19 10:15 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| UncleJD wrote: | | But by all means, lets keep up the charade. |
Again... serious question... in order to stop the charade, what do you propose that pro-life people stop doing?
And what do you propose they do instead?
I understand and share your frustration. But what do you suggest as the alternative? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
2/8/19 10:25 am
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UncleJD |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | UncleJD wrote: | | But by all means, lets keep up the charade. |
Again... serious question... in order to stop the charade, what do you propose that pro-life people stop doing?
And what do you propose they do instead?
I understand and share your frustration. But what do you suggest as the alternative? |
Stop fan-boying politicians when they throw out the red-meat vote-whoring one-liners like "defund PP, stop late-term abortions, require anethesia for the baby (yeah, this is one I actually read that got a lot of "h..l yeah!"s from the sheep). These half-measures are pretty much cop-outs saying "we give up but please do it nicer, be gentle and don't charge us for it". Its not going to stop until a lot more people get a lot more outraged. It starts in the church. How many of our churches that are so "pro-life" have even one week a year where they educate their people on what abortion really looks like? What they can and SHOULD do? Not enough, I can tell you. When that starts happening on a SERIOUS level, then maybe some better solutions might arise. I'm just saying that right now, politicians have had their chance and done NOTHING. Case in point, the first 2 years of Trump's administration, and that has happened nearly every President's term in my lifetime, yet same results with the number of abortions only climbing. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3138
2/8/19 10:39 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
| UncleJD wrote: | | Dave Dorsey wrote: | | UncleJD wrote: | | But by all means, lets keep up the charade. |
Again... serious question... in order to stop the charade, what do you propose that pro-life people stop doing?
And what do you propose they do instead?
I understand and share your frustration. But what do you suggest as the alternative? |
Stop fan-boying politicians when they throw out the red-meat vote-whoring one-liners like "defund PP, stop late-term abortions, require anethesia for the baby (yeah, this is one I actually read that got a lot of "h..l yeah!"s from the sheep). These half-measures are pretty much cop-outs saying "we give up but please do it nicer, be gentle and don't charge us for it". Its not going to stop until a lot more people get a lot more outraged. It starts in the church. How many of our churches that are so "pro-life" have even one week a year where they educate their people on what abortion really looks like? What they can and SHOULD do? Not enough, I can tell you. When that starts happening on a SERIOUS level, then maybe some better solutions might arise. I'm just saying that right now, politicians have had their chance and done NOTHING. Case in point, the first 2 years of Trump's administration, and that has happened nearly every President's term in my lifetime, yet same results with the number of abortions only climbing. |
I don't think the trend in abortions is climbing.
And Trump has done all he can do.
He can't put in a constitutional amendment - Congress or the States can.
Even the feeble measures Congress or the states pass is struck down by the court.
I don't see the answer of putting Kamala or Michele Obama in as President. I think that would put us further away from the court changing their stance.
Either the Congress says the Court does not have final say anymore (as they are 3 equal branches) or the court must be changed.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
2/8/19 11:21 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | And Trump has done all he can do. |
As much as I dislike the president, it is impossible to argue against this statement. The decision would have been 7-2 had Hillary been elected.
The result would have been the same, but we would be one aged conservative (Thomas) away from an 8-1 liberal bloc rather than one aged liberal away from a 5-4 conservative bloc. |
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Posts: 13654
2/8/19 12:14 pm
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UncleJD |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: |
I don't think the trend in abortions is climbing.
And Trump has done all he can do.. |
Unfortunately, not all states report their abortion numbers or even collect them as far as I can tell. But the stat that shows nearly 1/3 of all babies in New York are aborted tells us more than enough. Its not really changing, and if it is, its because hearts and minds are being changed rather than political changes.
I agree for the most part about Trump, though I'm not sure that he couldn't take the Obama approach and just throw stuff against the wall so fast that something is bound to stick (ala DACA).
You're right about the courts and such, this will take a Great Awakening of sorts among the people. To borrow a quote "I don't don't want to make abortion illegal, I want to make it unthinkable!" The law will follow the will of the people. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3138
2/8/19 12:16 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| UncleJD wrote: | | The law will follow the will of the people. |
If this statement summarizes what you're getting at with the "cut the nonsense and do something different" posts, then I have to agree with you. Maybe we have been approaching this completely the wrong way. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
2/8/19 12:17 pm
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UncleJD |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | UncleJD wrote: | | The law will follow the will of the people. |
If this statement summarizes what you're getting at with the "cut the nonsense and do something different" posts, then I have to agree with you. Maybe we have been approaching this completely the wrong way. |
Dave, yeah I guess so. I'm honestly just feeling this out. Something switched in my heart during all of this nonsense of the last few weeks. Call it righteous anger, whatever. I just think its time to get out of bed with Cesar and start calling the Church to wake up. Its happened before when the Church saw its neighbors being abused and destroyed, this is surely even worse than it was then. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3138
2/8/19 12:23 pm
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