View previous topic :: View next topic |
Message |
Author |
Was I predestined... |
roughridercog |
To be an Arminian?
I stole this _________________ Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod Posts: 25306 2/4/19 7:10 am
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Dave Dorsey |
Would you have been predestined if you were an Armenian? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 2/4/19 7:13 am
|
|
| |
|
|
roughridercog |
Dave Dorsey wrote: | Would you have been predestined if you were an Armenian? |
Ask Uncle Calvin when he is hyper. _________________ Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod Posts: 25306 2/4/19 7:33 am
|
|
| |
|
|
Dave Dorsey |
roughridercog wrote: | Ask Uncle Calvin when he is hyper. |
Joking aside, I think it's an interesting question on this topic.
What part, if any, does God's sovereignty and predestination play in where we are geographically born? Or when in time we are born? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 2/4/19 7:46 am
|
|
| |
|
|
Eddie Robbins |
My saying:
It makes more sense that He gave you free will to believe in predestination than He predestined me to believe in free will. |
Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 2/4/19 8:29 am
|
|
| |
|
|
roughridercog |
Eddie Robbins wrote: | My saying:
It makes more sense that He gave you free will to believe in predestination than He predestined me to believe in free will. |
Were you predestined to make that post? Was I predestined to make this one?
My head just exploded. _________________ Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod Posts: 25306 2/4/19 8:43 am
|
|
| |
|
|
Dave Dorsey |
Are Arminians predestined to turn one of the most complicated topics in all of theology into a series of one-liners, do they freely choose to do so but in a way constrained by their natures, or do they use one-liners to avoid hard questions in a purely libertarian way? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 2/4/19 9:12 am
|
|
| |
|
|
Da Sheik |
I don't have any humor to add here, but if someone wants to start a new discussion about election and predestination I'm game. |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1860 2/4/19 11:18 am
|
|
| |
|
|
Eddie Robbins |
Da Sheik wrote: | I don't have any humor to add here, but if someone wants to start a new discussion about election and predestination I'm game. |
I can do both.
Here’s my take on predestination. I believe in both. I believe there is a predestined will of God that man’s free will can not thwart. Revelation, for example, will happen. I also believe there are some things and people who are predestined. I believe the Apostle Paul was predestined. But, basically, I believe it this way. The overall big picture is a box that is moving towards God’s will and can not be stopped. Inside that box, people are free to move around in any way they choose.
Last edited by Eddie Robbins on 2/4/19 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 2/4/19 1:57 pm
|
|
| |
|
|
Dave Dorsey |
Eddie Robbins wrote: | The overall big picture is a box that is moving towards Gods will and can not be stopped. Inside that box, people are free to move around in any way they choose. |
Believe it or not, this is not far from a traditional Calvinist understanding of predestination. Most would talk about man's will as being free within the boundaries of God's will. They would deny that man has any capacity for truly libertarian free will, and would contend in favor of a more causal determinism based on man's nature and desires, but within those boundaries most would acknowledge that man makes free choices.
There is a spectrum within Reformed theology from hard determinism to soft or more causal determinism, of course, but the Reformed understanding of free will is a lot more complex and nuanced than most Arminians give them credit for. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 2/4/19 2:54 pm
|
|
| |
|
|
Eddie Robbins |
As far as salvation, there is a huge difference between predestination and free will. I believe in free will when it comes to salvation, however, I believe there are some who are chosen to do God’s work, like Paul. I have heard Calvinists say that if a child dies, God knows if they would have been saved or not and that’s how they are judged. Just crazy, IMO. |
Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 2/4/19 3:27 pm
|
|
| |
|
|
Dave Dorsey |
Eddie Robbins wrote: | As far as salvation, there is a huge difference between predestination and free will. I believe in free will when it comes to salvation, however, I believe there are some who are chosen to do God’s work, like Paul. I have heard Calvinists say that if a child dies, God knows if they would have been saved or not and that’s how they are judged. Just crazy, IMO. |
I'm sure you have heard crazy people say crazy things about a lot of topics. As with any other system of belief, it is best evaluated on the basis of the statements made by serious theologians rather than randos. I wouldn't want anyone evaluating Pentecostalism on the basis of some nutty statement made by a random charismatic who thinks Todd Bentley is a prophet. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 2/4/19 4:01 pm
|
|
| |
|
|
Eddie Robbins |
Dave Dorsey wrote: | Eddie Robbins wrote: | As far as salvation, there is a huge difference between predestination and free will. I believe in free will when it comes to salvation, however, I believe there are some who are chosen to do God’s work, like Paul. I have heard Calvinists say that if a child dies, God knows if they would have been saved or not and that’s how they are judged. Just crazy, IMO. |
I'm sure you have heard crazy people say crazy things about a lot of topics. As with any other system of belief, it is best evaluated on the basis of the statements made by serious theologians rather than randos. I wouldn't want anyone evaluating Pentecostalism on the basis of some nutty statement made by a random charismatic who thinks Todd Bentley is a prophet. |
You may remember that we attended a Southern Baptist church back in the 90s and the pastor was Reformed. My wife got a Master’s in Theology from Reformed Theological Seminary where he did as a result of our relationship. So, my info isn’t just from a crazy person like Bentley. I’m saying the notion of God choosing based on what a life would have been is crazy. |
Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 2/4/19 5:16 pm
|
|
| |
|
|
Dave Dorsey |
And I'm saying you won't find that in any systematic not is it at all reflective of actual reformed theology. Views vary, but at their most extreme Calvinists would say their fate depends on God's sovereign election. The notion of God choosing based on anything someone did or didn't do or would or wouldn't do, or ANYTHING other than His own soverign choice, is completely alien to the reformed view of the doctrine of election.
The reformed understanding of election is by definition completely divorced from anything someone might or might not do. God "looking down the corridors of time" to see what someone might do is more akin to the Arminian concept of prevenient grace.
If you say "God choosing based on..." and end that sentence with anything other than "His sovereign choice" then you're not talking about the reformed view of election, even if you went to RTS. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 2/4/19 5:35 pm
|
|
| |
|
|
Eddie Robbins |
Ok....I think I am misreprenting myself. It’s not that God knows what they would have been, He knows that they are either chosen or not, even as a child. So, bottom line is, they don’t accept the theory of the age of accountability. A 1 year old child go to hell in their belief. |
Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 2/4/19 7:11 pm
|
|
| |
|
|
Dave Dorsey |
Eddie Robbins wrote: | Ok....I think I am misreprenting myself. It’s not that God knows what they would have been, He knows that they are either chosen or not, even as a child. So, bottom line is, they don’t accept the theory of the age of accountability. A 1 year old child go to hell in their belief. |
Okay, that sounds more like it. That's a Calvinist view, but far from the only one. Many Calvinists believe that all infants who die are automatically elect, or are granted mercy based on having been unable to understand sin, which is basically the age of accountability.
This goes back to my point that Reformed theology is much more nuanced and complex than most Arminians want to give it credit for. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 2/4/19 7:23 pm
|
|
| |
|
|