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 Re: With all due respect |
Resident Skeptic |
| Mat wrote: | | Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Brandon Bohannon wrote: | Many of our older saints are no different about their preferred style- thus the worship wars.
They too talk about how the song makes them feel. Not necessarily all bad as music is designed by its very nature to "take us to a place or time."
"I never shall forget that day..."
"While we walk the pilgrim pathway..."
"Let me hide myself in Thee..."
"I need Thee, oh I need Thee... I come to Thee." |
Amen! And all night signings with “famous†quartets entertaining falling under the “worship†category. |
Over the years I have learned how "ungodly" many of those Gospel quartet members were. I guess its no difference today with the P&W Team. As long as you can hit the note you get the stage.
Mat |
Part of the problem is, we automatically assume sometimes that if one is talented, and seems "anointed", then they are to be esteemed as a spiritual leader on par with one of the 5-fold ministry.
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Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
1/31/19 9:45 am
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revuriah |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | I agree worship should be focused solely on God. I agree some folks may in fact be unintentionally worshipping their feelings/self. I also agree that we should not limit worship to a song we sing, but that everything we do, our whole life, is to be offered up as a living sacrifice to God and for others.
That said, I get the distinct feeling from reading this guy’s blog that he is a Michal not a David. |
That may be. The vibe I got is that he’s a liturgical, traditional guy. I came up in a church like that. I was shocked when I first walked into a charismatic church.
To me, Worship is both personal and congregational. There needs to be a balance. But the writer seems to have let the pendulum swing too far in the opposite direction. He’s got a chip on his shoulder for sure.
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Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3682
1/31/19 6:14 pm
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| The post that used the "M" word. |
doyle |
It's understood the poster was quoting the headline of an article. when he used the word "Masturbatory"" Using the "M" word certainly gets the author of that article, much attention.
Problem with using a word like that to grab attention, is many readers will focus on the word, whether they agree with using the word in relationship to the article or not. The excellent point of the article, can get lost in the distance as all eyes focus on the "M" word.
I totally agree with Nature Boy on this one. He made an wise comment in about it. Far better, in my opinion, would have been to use the article phrase, 8 Reasons the Worship Industry Is Killing Worship.
Doyle
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The largest room in the world is the room for improvement. |
Acts-celerate Owner
Posts: 6957
1/31/19 6:59 pm
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| The post that used the "M" word. |
doyle |
It's understood the poster was quoting the headline of an article. when he used the word "Masturbatory"" Using the "M" word certainly gets the author of that article, much attention.
Problem with using a word like that to grab attention, is many readers will focus on the word, whether they agree with using the word in relationship to the article or not. The excellent point of the article, can get lost in the distance as all eyes focus on the "M" word.
Far better, in my opinion, would have been to use the article phrase, 8 Reasons the Worship Industry Is Killing Worship.
Doyle
writedoyle@gmail.com
404-933-1373
_________________
The largest room in the world is the room for improvement. |
Acts-celerate Owner
Posts: 6957
1/31/19 7:04 pm
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Tom Sterbens |
These type of threads...
...ugh...
Just worship the way you feel God called you to worship.
It is not necessary to somehow legitimize what "I" may prefer by diminishing the significance of what another may do.
In worship, by any definition - God is the object and we are the beneficiary.
In the strictest sense, God does not benefit from it...we do.
As Quiet Wyatt pointed out - the worship David performed was found to be objectionable by Michal who, ironically, accused David of self-serving sexual overtones in the same manner the author of the article attempts to frame people who engage in contemporary worship (whatever that is).
I think I'll go with David. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4507
2/3/19 11:48 pm
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diakoneo |
Wasn't David being criticized for how he responded to what was going on? Were not the Levites in charge of the music?
I don't see the David/Michal story as being relevant to this argument.
What I do see and hear is a continual diminishing of biblical instructiveness in our worship music. I see this on all sides of preference. A lack of depth. A Lack of doctrine and worse yet bad doctrine, when there is any and they are not talking about how they feel. It is on all sides but the praise and worship culture is leading the pack, so... |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
2/4/19 6:46 am
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Tom Sterbens |
| diakoneo wrote: | Wasn't David being criticized for how he responded to what was going on? Were not the Levites in charge of the music?
I don't see the David/Michal story as being relevant to this argument.
What I do see and hear is a continual diminishing of biblical instructiveness in our worship music. I see this on all sides of preference. A lack of depth. A Lack of doctrine and worse yet bad doctrine, when there is any and they are not talking about how they feel. It is on all sides but the praise and worship culture is leading the pack, so... |
2 Samuel 6:14–16 (NIV)
14 Wearing a linen ephod, David was dancing before the LORD with all his might,
15 while he and all Israel were bringing up the ark of the LORD with shouts and the sound of trumpets.
16 As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, she despised him in her heart.
That would seem to constitute an act of worship of some sort...
2 Samuel 6:20 (NIV)
20 When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, “How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, going around half-naked in full view of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!â€
Michal's verbalization of her objection of David's worship seems similarly accusatory concerning David's self-serving display whose suspected ultimate goal was some sort of sexual gratification with the young women. I think it pretty much fits the respective scenario as I stated previously.
For someone to assert there is no "depth" to a particular expression of worship seems condescending and pious to me - I don't know what is in their heart. The disciples objected to the expression of worship (?) Mary offered...Jesus told them to leave her alone. I'm thinking He would probably offer similar words.
But then...I probably do not worship at the depth required to pass muster as being substantively reflective of the nature and existential reality of the Divine. 
Thanks |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4507
2/4/19 6:05 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
The author's opening statement is here:
| Quote: | "Contemporary megachurch-style worship is a self-worshiping, self-referential, nearly auto-erotic pursuit.
Many times, I’ve chosen to use the word “masturbatory†to describe it, and it’s made a lot of people unhappy." |
As a young boy we had a week long crusade in our town where a temporary megachurch popped up out of nowhere & tens of thousands attended where even more thousands were saved & their decisions were followed up by the local pastors.
The crusade was with Billy Graham.
Of course we sang the traditional songs, the music was loud, George Beverly Shea did a great job in his special song.
We felt the presence of the Lord, sang along with the songs & enjoyed George's song ...(I wouldn't characterize it as entertainment but his albums were 'For Sale')
I think the author is painting with too broad of a brush.
My daughter has had the awesome opportunity to minister weekly at 2 very large megachurches over the last 6 years & I have sat through several services where at times she led worship & at other times she did not.
I felt the presence of the Lord each time & I never got the sense that the music or song choices were serving a platter of 'self-pleasuring' worship.
If this author is valid then we develop short term megachurches every 2 years & that means our GA has been in trouble for years because we use the latest worship songs, the newest/best worship leaders & we extend these opportunities to the state level camp meetings.
To me, worship is in the heart of the worshipper & we need to trust that people know how to restrain themselves from auto-erotic pursuits.
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Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
2/4/19 7:12 pm
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diakoneo |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | diakoneo wrote: | Wasn't David being criticized for how he responded to what was going on? Were not the Levites in charge of the music?
I don't see the David/Michal story as being relevant to this argument.
What I do see and hear is a continual diminishing of biblical instructiveness in our worship music. I see this on all sides of preference. A lack of depth. A Lack of doctrine and worse yet bad doctrine, when there is any and they are not talking about how they feel. It is on all sides but the praise and worship culture is leading the pack, so... |
2 Samuel 6:14–16 (NIV)
14 Wearing a linen ephod, David was dancing before the LORD with all his might,
15 while he and all Israel were bringing up the ark of the LORD with shouts and the sound of trumpets.
16 As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, she despised him in her heart.
That would seem to constitute an act of worship of some sort...
2 Samuel 6:20 (NIV)
20 When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, “How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, going around half-naked in full view of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!â€
Michal's verbalization of her objection of David's worship seems similarly accusatory concerning David's self-serving display whose suspected ultimate goal was some sort of sexual gratification with the young women. I think it pretty much fits the respective scenario as I stated previously.
For someone to assert there is no "depth" to a particular expression of worship seems condescending and pious to me - I don't know what is in their heart. The disciples objected to the expression of worship (?) Mary offered...Jesus told them to leave her alone. I'm thinking He would probably offer similar words.
But then...I probably do not worship at the depth required to pass muster as being substantively reflective of the nature and existential reality of the Divine.
Thanks |
Again, I am speaking to response to physical and emotional response to what is going on.
I did not say there was NO depth but rather a lack of depth. The author of the article may have used the "no" word. My issue is not with worshippers as it seems in our current religious system they have little choice in the matter. My issue is with those who are gifted musically and are leading. There are more (quantity wise) musically talented people in Christian music than ever but it seems the quality is less.
Are you satisfied with the depth and doctrine of current Christian music?
By the way...I enjoyed the song you sang at Alabama campmeeting a few years ago! I did not dance though |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
2/4/19 10:35 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| I like the depth of the old music like “99 and a half won’t do†and other classics. We would shout when we sang “let the church be the church.†That’s a good one. Maybe we make a list. Oh, but let’s not do that. Let’s question the theology of the current music. It’s much worse these days. Especially when they get those strobe lights going. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
2/5/19 7:31 am
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Tom Sterbens |
| diakoneo wrote: |
Are you satisfied with the depth and doctrine of current Christian music?
By the way...I enjoyed the song you sang at Alabama campmeeting a few years ago! I did not dance though |
Thanks for the kind words...
I only recall one of the songs I sang - because Bishop Culpepper asked me to sing that one specifically. Coincidentally, since that particular song was rather satirical I'm not sure the spiritual depth meter would have given it much credence.
With regard to your question: "Are you satisfied with the depth and doctrine of the current Christian music?"
Interestingly - the way you phrased the question PERFECTLY frames the conundrum before us...and suddenly seems to reverse the indictment.
(hold that thought for a moment...)
Personally, I am a student of worship, but then, what does THAT even mean? (smile) As I seek to know Him more (worship?) and if that is possible (and I believe it is) do I then step away from that enlightenment (if there is) and become the examiner of the worship journey of every single person pronouncing my assessment of the legitimacy of their pursuit of, or encounter with, God?
What is the standard by which I measure that legitimacy?
Ultimately it will be based on my own knowledge or experience to some degree.
In the last couple years - I have sought to NOT measure my worship experience or knowledge of The Holy against the experience of knowledge of anyone else. I.Just.Want.Him. I do want to hear their experiences...because ultimately it is a testimony of Him in the life of another.
Next thought: I find it fascinating that we, Pentecostals, who center our doctrine or worship firmly in a God that can be experienced, would be quick to pronounce the impotence of the worship experience of another (pun intended). Further, we are those who proclaim our encoutners with God ultimately exceed the limitations of human thought...much less "words"...which is why we tell other people God gives us a language of worship that exceeds the limitations of human cognition.
**If that is the case then why do get all caught up in the inefficacy of the "words" another may use to engage God - since none are sufficient at any rate...
Last: My most recent "worship thing" came while doing a devotional on John chapters 9/10 ( I won't bore you with the details...). My premise for worship is that God is "seeking" to recover (for us) that which was lost on the last day in Eden. That is because I believe the most pure worship existence/experience, on this planet, was the Garden of Eden..."naked and not ashamed..."
God the Father, Son, Holy Spirit would conceivably, visit them and walk and talk with them...daily. Unmitigated open encounter with God.
My most recent flash of worship has landed in the following phrase:
"Worship: The Conversation the Human Soul is Dying to Have!"
I think I can defend the poetry and theology of that at great length.
The point: I won't be quick to interrupt that conversation or tell someone they need to have that "conversation" with words "I" deem appropriate.
I do think scripture speaks about occasions where God found a particular expression of worship insufficient...but that is a nother conversation.
Thanks
Last edited by Tom Sterbens on 2/6/19 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4507
2/5/19 8:49 am
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diakoneo |
Tom,
I appreciate how you value worship. I am not a student of worship but I do believe what Christ said about worshipping in spirit and truth. Perhaps I misinterpret that scripture but I take it to mean that only God revealed worship is true worship.
I don't remember the song you sang really...just remember that I enjoyed it.
Which kind of brings me to my point as to lyrics. I believe lyrics are more or at least as important as the music and especially when it comes to worship music. These songs have instructive value whether we like it or not. The songs(that are often repeated with music that shakes our emotions) rattle around in our heads for days and consequently they can be more effective (negatively or positively)than a pastor's sermon. Thus my belief in importance of depth of lyrics and accuracy of doctrine. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
2/5/19 9:24 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
Question,
To worship, do you have to have ANY words with your music?
Can it just be music - or must it be accompanied by words?
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
2/6/19 6:58 am
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Preacher777 |
[quote="diakoneo"]Tom,
I appreciate how you value worship. I am not a student of worship but I do believe what Christ said about worshipping in spirit and truth. Perhaps I misinterpret that scripture but I take it to mean that only God revealed worship is true worship.
I don't remember the song you sang really...just remember that I enjoyed it.
Which kind of brings me to my point as to lyrics. I believe lyrics are more or at least as important as the music and especially when it comes to worship music. These songs have instructive value whether we like it or not. The songs(that are often repeated with music that shakes our emotions) rattle around in our heads for days and consequently they can be more effective (negatively or positively)than a pastor's sermon. Thus my belief in importance of depth of lyrics and accuracy of doctrine.[/quote]
Diakoneo, you make a great point about the importance of the depth of lyrics and accuracy of doctrine. Advertisers and musicians spend a lot of money trying to create catchy phrases and lyrics that will stay in our mind. Jesus said, "My words are spirit, my words are life."
We can eat junk food and feel good at the moment but miss the long term benefit of eating healthy. I believe the same is true with feeling oriented music versus worship containing the Word and sound doctrine.
We often marvel at how Christians can be pulled away by teachings that take the Bible out of context. I believe combining sermons that do not contain sound doctrine (such as a continual focus on what God can do for me now instead of an eternal perspective) plus feel good music lacking sound doctrine is a recipe for wrong belief.
Last edited by Preacher777 on 2/6/19 11:16 pm; edited 2 times in total |
Friendly Face
Posts: 434
2/6/19 8:06 am
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diakoneo |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | Question,
To worship, do you have to have ANY words with your music?
Can it just be music - or must it be accompanied by words? |
No, apparently the words don't matter...these days.
Imagine the Psalms without words though🤓 |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
2/6/19 8:19 pm
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diakoneo |
| Preacher777 wrote: | Advertisers and musicians spend a lot of money trying to create catchy phrases and lyrics that will stay in our mind. Jesus said, "My words are spirit, my words are life."
We can eat junk food and feel good at the moment but miss the long term benefit of eating healthy. I believe the same is true with feeling oriented music versus worship containing the Word and sound doctrine.
We often marvel at how Christians can be pulled away by teachings that take the Bible of context. I believe combining sermons that do not contain sound doctrine (such as a continual focus on what God can do for me now instead of an eternal perspective) plus feel good music lacking sound doctrine is a recipe for wrong belief. |
Excellent 👠|
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
2/6/19 8:42 pm
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| Another one of those shallow songs... |
Tom Sterbens |
Another newer worship song someone sent me today.
So shallow...
https://youtu.be/QdIOaAvvOp8 |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4507
2/7/19 3:28 pm
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| Re: Another one of those shallow songs... |
UncleJD |
You must have pasted the wrong link, that's good right there |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3138
2/7/19 3:48 pm
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| Re: Another one of those shallow songs... |
Tom Sterbens |
| UncleJD wrote: |
You must have pasted the wrong link, that's good right there |
I must have forgotten the "satire" emoji. My bad... |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4507
2/7/19 3:51 pm
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| Re: Another one of those shallow songs... |
UncleJD |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | UncleJD wrote: |
You must have pasted the wrong link, that's good right there |
I must have forgotten the "satire" emoji. My bad... |
I got it .. Thanks for sharing that one. A real gem, I'm sharing it with my fb friends. It really got to me |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3138
2/7/19 3:59 pm
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