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RE: Abortion. Is there a responsibility on we who are Christ-Followers?
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Post UncleJD
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Cojak wrote:


I refuse to do as Eddie points out, Men and women screaming Murderer at anyone. I know my JOB is to teach life is precious. To find a way to talk to someone who has committed or allowed this 'murder'and explain that Jesus FORGIVES!


I agree that yelling at people is probably not going to help.

However, the fact that you put the word ‘murder’ in inverted commas seems to indicate you do not view it as murder. Insisting that abortion is not murder is precisely the point on which the entire pro-abortion argument rests. One absolutely must settle that question in their mind before they can think about what they should do about it.


Agreed, it most definitely IS murder. I don't have to scream it in someone's face, that would be unproductive and a bad witness to those who need saved. BUT! I can and should vote like its murder, I should promote life and alternatives like it's murder, I should pray against it like its murder, I should witness to those who will listen that it is murder. I should stay grieved and not grow desensitized like its murder. Because it IS murder. And I agree with NBF, to point out that it is murder, to vote against it, etc... is not to take financial responsibility for everyone on earth that isn't murdered, that's just crazy.
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1/30/19 9:44 am


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Post Travis Johnson
There is no other group that has done more to protect and nurture life in all stages than the Church and Christians:

How many hospitals do you know that begin with the words: "Baptist, Methodist, St. Jude, etc..."?

Orphanages
Schools
Tutoring programs
Home school Co-ops
Universities
Nursing homes

It's a long list.

Christians adopt, foster, volunteer in children's ministries, hospitals, Boys and Girls Clubs, Big Brother/Big Sister programs.

The line that Christians are hypocritical when speaking against abortion is a ploy and untrue. Some Christians don't. But, Christians have made a massive impact on this world through generous hospitality and care.

Likewise, many people who abort children and who advocate for such also do not care for the born.
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1/30/19 10:27 am


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Post Dean Steenburgh
It's hard for me to believe that as Christians we would even consider the topic (as it comes across from some comments) as if, "should we stand in the way of legalized abortion if we can't afford to feed, clothe & house the babies?"
Honestly, have I missed the subject or the point here?
My family & I have attended several rallies & held the signs near the clinic but not one time did a single member of our group get out of line or scream/yell at one of the girls going in.
If they did I would have brought that action to a halt ...immediately.
We have an active demonstration rally every Wednesday morning here in Modesto & it's always done with courteous people & with folks who are ready to assist a girl in the event she would like to approach & ask for help.

My own family has adopted children here in town & I have members in our church along with my own family members who would like to adopt more.
Where is the compassion for the murdered babies?

2 Timothy 3:1-5 (NCV)
Remember this! In the last days there will be many troubles, 2 because people will love themselves, love money, brag, and be proud. They will say evil things against others and will not obey their parents or be thankful or be the kind of people God wants. 3 They will not love others, will refuse to forgive, will gossip, and will not control themselves. They will be cruel, will hate what is good, 4 will turn against their friends, and will do foolish things without thinking. They will be conceited, will love pleasure instead of God, 5 and will act as if they serve God but will not have his power. Stay away from those people.

Woe unto us!
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1/30/19 4:22 pm


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Post I don't believe any poster did that caseyleejones
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
It's hard for me to believe that as Christians we would even consider the topic (as it comes across from some comments) as if, "should we stand in the way of legalized abortion if we can't afford to feed, clothe & house the babies?"
Honestly, have I missed the subject or the point here?
My family & I have attended several rallies & held the signs near the clinic but not one time did a single member of our group get out of line or scream/yell at one of the girls going in.
If they did I would have brought that action to a halt ...immediately.
We have an active demonstration rally every Wednesday morning here in Modesto & it's always done with courteous people & with folks who are ready to assist a girl in the event she would like to approach & ask for help.

My own family has adopted children here in town & I have members in our church along with my own family members who would like to adopt more.
Where is the compassion for the murdered babies?

2 Timothy 3:1-5 (NCV)
Remember this! In the last days there will be many troubles, 2 because people will love themselves, love money, brag, and be proud. They will say evil things against others and will not obey their parents or be thankful or be the kind of people God wants. 3 They will not love others, will refuse to forgive, will gossip, and will not control themselves. They will be cruel, will hate what is good, 4 will turn against their friends, and will do foolish things without thinking. They will be conceited, will love pleasure instead of God, 5 and will act as if they serve God but will not have his power. Stay away from those people.

Woe unto us!


I think the point is changing avatars, yelling at women, etc is not the response of the church.
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1/30/19 5:29 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
It's hard for me to believe that as Christians we would even consider the topic (as it comes across from some comments) as if, "should we stand in the way of legalized abortion if we can't afford to feed, clothe & house the babies?"
Honestly, have I missed the subject or the point here?

Yes, it seems that you have.

The discussion seems to me to be a question of what obligation if any Christians have above and beyond their opposition to abortion itself.
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1/30/19 6:08 pm


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Post Cojak
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Cojak wrote:


I refuse to do as Eddie points out, Men and women screaming Murderer at anyone. I know my JOB is to teach life is precious. To find a way to talk to someone who has committed or allowed this 'murder'and explain that Jesus FORGIVES!


I agree that yelling at people is probably not going to help.

However, the fact that you put the word ‘murder’ in inverted commas seems to indicate you do not view it as murder. Insisting that abortion is not murder is precisely the point on which the entire pro-abortion argument rests. One absolutely must settle that question in their mind before they can think about what they should do about it.


I have never heard of inverted commas before. They are single quotes, referring to something used afore hand.
I am sorry if that is all you saw in the comment. From past conversions you know that I do not consider EVERY abortion a murder. I do believe in exceptions. I have stated it many times here. If my wife's life or the baby's life is on the line, I will in all cases elect to save my wife.

I will not debate the right or wrong of the decision, it is just how I feel, and believe it with my heart.

Idea

So have you settled in your heart between the baby and your wife if you were put in that position?
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1/30/19 7:57 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
There is never truly any instance when killing the baby is necessary to save the life of the mother. Live preterm delivery might be necessary, but that is not killing the baby, of course. The idea that abortion should be available “to protect the life of the mother” is just another baldfaced lie the pro-aborts have fed people over the years. Tragically, some are gullible enough to believe it. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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1/30/19 8:22 pm


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Post UncleJD
Dave Dorsey wrote:

The discussion seems to me to be a question of what obligation if any Christians have above and beyond their opposition to abortion itself.


No "extra" obligations, other than love and charity as is common with all things that Christians already do. We already love the fatherless, give of our selves and income. As has been stated, its Christian names in front of most hospitals, orphanages, private schools, etc.. in this world. There is nothing that Christians need to prove here. The left makes a big show about "Christians only care about babies inside the womb". That's blatantly false and not open for discussion with me, and it smacks of the leftist desire to have all things handed to them.
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1/31/19 9:03 am


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Post Cojak
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
There is never truly any instance when killing the baby is necessary to save the life of the mother. Live preterm delivery might be necessary, but that is not killing the baby, of course. The idea that abortion should be available “to protect the life of the mother” is just another baldfaced lie the pro-aborts have fed people over the years. Tragically, some are gullible enough to believe it.


There is NEVER a time? Auto wrecks involving the pregnant, gun shot wounds, disease.
I guess you have an answer that suits you, Spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a family member then come back and tell me.

I won't debate it, presently my heart is racing and I feel sick.

Judge Gently

Author Unknown

Pray don’t find fault with the man who limps
or stumbles along the road,
unless you have worn the shoes he wears
or struggle beneath his load
There may be tacks in his shoes that hurt,
though hidden away from view,
or the burden he bears, placed on your back
might cause you to stumble too.
Don’t sneer at the man who’s down today
unless you have felt the blow
that cause his fall or felt the shame
that only the fallen know.
You may be strong, but still the blows
that were his if dealt to you,
in the selfsame way, at the selfsame time,
might cause you to stagger too.
Don’t be too harsh with the man who sins
or pelt him with word or stone,
unless you are sure, yea, doubly sure,
that you have no sins of your own -
for you know perhaps if the temper’s voice
should whisper as softly to you
as it did to him when he went astray,
it might cause you to stumble too.
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1/31/19 10:12 am


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Post UncleJD
Cojak, with the risk of misinterpreting what QW said myself, I think he's saying that there is never a need to; dismember, saline inject, suction, etc.. abortion, the fetus during these cases. Yes, they may be taken via c-section, or induced labor, and the life of the baby left up to God, which I know is heartbreaking, in order to save the mother and/or the baby, but that is not the same as the abortion procedure that has been decreed legal here.

QW, if I'm mistaken please correct me.

Cojak, does what I said make any difference? If I understand your point, I share the position that were it my wife or daughter, I'd want her life saved at all costs (yet, that WOULD be her choice in that particular circumstance when it actually IS life and death). But I don't believe the forced delivery in those circumstances are the same as an abortion. (and I may be mistaken, I'm not well versed in the scenario).

I think we all agree though, that the idea that a woman could ask for an abortion while dilated and in labor simply because she claims it will harm her "mental health" (i.e. make her sad), is EVIL. I'd go beyond that and say if an abnormality is found on the baby seconds before birth that it would be just as EVIL to kill it at that point. Sorry to mix the 2 abortion thread topics, but they overlap here in my mind, especially after Cojak's post.
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1/31/19 1:18 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
I have said exactly what I meant to say. No need for interpretation at all. It is plain verified fact that there is never any instance when it is medically necessary to kill a baby in its mother’s womb. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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1/31/19 1:35 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
That part about a doctor giving comfort to the child after the delivery while the mother decides whether to "abort" it (after the fact) - is pretty troublesome.

Will there one day be a blood/gene test we could administer after birth to determine if the just born child has Down's syndrome - would that be used to determine if they want to have a post birth abortion? (oops already done early in pregnancy)

Will there one day be a blood/gene test we could administer after birth to determine if the just born child is a girl - would that be used to determine if they want to have a post birth abortion? (oops already done early in pregnancy)

If of Muslim or Jonesboro descent - Will there one day be a blood/gene test we could administer after birth to determine if the just born child is predisposed to be a homosexual - would that be used to determine if they want to have a post birth abortion? (uh oh)

If Baby is born and immediately grabs a Red MAGA hat and smiles/smirks - would that be used to determine if they want to have a post birth abortion?

Where does it end?
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1/31/19 3:18 pm


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Post Dean Steenburgh
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
It's hard for me to believe that as Christians we would even consider the topic (as it comes across from some comments) as if, "should we stand in the way of legalized abortion if we can't afford to feed, clothe & house the babies?"
Honestly, have I missed the subject or the point here?

Yes, it seems that you have.

The discussion seems to me to be a question of what obligation if any Christians have above and beyond their opposition to abortion itself.


I wasn't asking the question as though I didn't get the OP.
I was asking out of absurdity hence why I explained myself in my post.

Above & beyond the opposition is the care & nurture of the unwanted, this is why my family adopts unwanted babies.
Some say we don't have the ability to care for them but we have a mandate to care for all of God's people ...especially the unprotected.


.
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1/31/19 3:29 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
I wasn't asking the question as though I didn't get the OP.
I was asking out of absurdity hence why I explained myself in my post.

If you thought anyone was questioning whether we should stand in the way of legalized abortion, as you said, then you didn't get the OP.

Quote:
I am pro-life. Pretty much all pro-life people I know agree the child should come to term....just by definition...

That said, should we as His followers support unwed mothers such as taking them into our home and caring for them? Be willing to take one of those babies born? Be willing to give monthly a chunk of our income to those who are adopting?

People have found it easy to be pro-life, but by being pro-life, should we not sacrifice our resources and time as well?

It's hard the wrap my mind around how anyone could read this and think there is any question here as to whether Christians should be pro-life and oppose legalized abortion.
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1/31/19 6:03 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
That part about a doctor giving comfort to the child after the delivery while the mother decides whether to "abort" it (after the fact) - is pretty troublesome.

The basis of the pro-abortion movement is the concept of "her body, her choice".

This concept is wrong for a wide variety of reasons as we all know. But even if it wasn't -- how on earth can anyone suggest abortion after the child has been born alive and is no longer in the mother's body?

If nothing else, this entire monstrous affair has been very revealing. Unfortunately, majorities of Americans support abortion, but HUGE majorities oppose late-term abortions. I hope this ghoulish situation gives this country serious pause.
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1/31/19 6:16 pm


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Post My opinion Cojak
I abhor NY's decision. I think most abortions are murder. but I have stated if it had been my wife or our child's life it would be my wife's and I would not consider that murder.

The statement was made that there is NEVER such a situation. I read where 490 doctors agreed with that statement. That is 490 out of 950K to 1.1 million doctors. Of which 21% are CAtholic. just considering 490 out of the number of /Catholics would minimal So I beg to differ.

Staying away from personal family experience I read this:

Cecily Kellogg, 44, a writer who lives near Philadelphia, says that was the situation she faced when she was nearly six months pregnant with twin boys in 2004 and developed severe preeclampsia. One fetus had already died and "my liver had shut down, my kidneys had shut down and they were expecting me to start seizing at any minute," she says. The doctors said they had to quickly dilate her cervix and perform an abortion to save her. "I fought it," she says. "But they told me I would die — that it was either me and my son or just my son."

That is what I have to say, it is my opinion. The doctors do not always have the luxury of time to debate life and death.

Considering th OP, WHAT I WAS TRYING TO ASK IS BASICALLY: What is a Christian's responsibility according to scripture.

BTW I did say I disagree with NY and the VA GOVERNOR. I also think it is sick to even think of keeping a newborn alive while some one decides to abort or not ( which is way to late to even use that term.)

And finally to clarify my opinion on my wife and child, yes it would be up to her to make the decision, if she was capable, but she would definitely know my opinion. She does now. I hold my wife above my own life or any human life, of course.
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1/31/19 10:58 pm


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Post On what basis do you abhor the NY and VA positions? Quiet Wyatt
It is almost pointless trying to talk with someone whose mind has already decided that it’s “the woman’s choice.” The logical conclusion to that view is the one recently adopted in New York. It’s her choice, after all, and who are you to question her ‘right’ to choose?

It should come as no surprise that doctors who have no qualms about murdering babies in the first place would try to justify them in any case. Babies are delivered and thrive at six months quite often.

A young lady in my home church was recommended by her doctor to abort her baby due to her severe, life-threatening health issues. She said she would trust God and not have her baby killed. She and her baby made it far along enough to deliver, and both are alive and healthy and happy now. Doctors are neither the final authority nor are they God. Most of them believe in evolution, too, so what’s the difference between putting a dog or cat to sleep and killing what is only a more highly evolved mammal than that, like, say, a human being?

When my wife was pregnant with our fifth child, he was found on ultrasound to have a severe cleft deformity. The doctor recommended abortion. My wife let that doctor know in no uncertain terms that nothing justified killing a baby, and that no, she was not going to agree to it. He is a beautiful, healthy 7 year old now, our sunshine. Doctors are not infallible, and they are most definitely not God.
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2/1/19 1:04 am


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Post QW, Cojak
I definitely admire your wife and her decision.

I just cannot say that about your attitude. But to your convictions, I admire them. Every one has an opionion. I have no problem with mine, but I am disheartened to be painted with such a broad brush.

Life is tough, but life is also good. Try to enjoy it.
Take care. Love from Florida!
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2/1/19 10:43 pm


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Post Re: QW, Quiet Wyatt
Cojak wrote:
I definitely admire your wife and her decision.

I just cannot say that about your attitude. But to your convictions, I admire them. Every one has an opionion. I have no problem with mine, but I am disheartened to be painted with such a broad brush.

Life is tough, but life is also good. Try to enjoy it.
Take care. Love from Florida!


Too funny! You know you have no real basis for abhoring murdering a full-term infant, since you do not abhor, but instead wish to justify, the murder of a six-month babe in the womb.

You are full of pride over your past sin, and need to repent of enabling and defending infant slaughter, and you refuse to admit it. That’s all. No shame is your problem. I would pray God would in kindness lead you to repentance, but I fear you are past hope.
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2/1/19 11:31 pm


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Post Re: QW, Cojak
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Cojak wrote:
I definitely admire your wife and her decision.

I just cannot say that about your attitude. But to your convictions, I admire them. Every one has an opionion. I have no problem with mine, but I am disheartened to be painted with such a broad brush.

Life is tough, but life is also good. Try to enjoy it.
Take care. Love from Florida!


Too funny! You know you have no real basis for abhoring murdering a full-term infant, since you do not abhor, but instead wish to justify, the murder of a six-month babe in the womb.

You are full of pride over your past sin, and need to repent of enabling and defending infant slaughter, and you refuse to admit it. That’s all. No shame is your problem. I would pray God would in kindness lead you to repentance, but I fear you are past hope.


'''

My best to you QW!
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2/1/19 11:55 pm


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