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Wine or Welch's? Let's do this one more time
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Post Da Sheik
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
I should also make it clear that I have never said that drinking alcohol is a sin. However, it still seems a big fat unfounded assumption that Jesus turned water into fully fermented wine. I see no good reason at all to believe the sinless Son of God would ever essentially sponsor what would quite likely become a drunken party such as that. It seems far more reasonable to my mind to imagine that the water He miraculously transsubstantiated into wine was of the spotless, uncorrupted, fresh kind. Are we to assume that people might someday get drunk in Heaven, at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb? (I’m not talking about getting drunk on the Spirit of God, mind you).


This quote is full of assumption.
#1 That the people at the wedding were falling down drunk already (the text never says that)
#2 That Jesus turned the water into grape juice (although the Holy Spirit inspired John to say it was 'oinos'_
#3 That scripture prohibits alcohol and that somehow Jesus turning the water into"oinos' would cast a shadow upon the sinless nature of Christ

I'm afraid some of you are far more offended by what Jesus did than Mary and John. I'll try this one more time...

Why was Jesus there if it were an event God frowned upon? He wasn't there to preach. He was invited there as a social event

Why was Mary concerned about them running out of wine if it were so sinful? Shouldn't she have been relieved?

How is it that everyone in the text seems to be making logical and coherent statements despite the assertion that everyone is falling down drunk?
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1/3/19 2:56 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Where in that post did I say that people were falling down drunk already? I never said that. Acts-perienced Poster
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1/3/19 3:06 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
So, in your view, as soon as it is pressed, grape juice (or oinos, if you prefer) is fully fermented? Acts-perienced Poster
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1/3/19 3:07 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Sheik, I really think you should have your eyes checked, bro.

Your claim about my post: “#3 That scripture prohibits alcohol...”

What I actually said, which you yourself quoted, ironically enough:

Quiet Wyatt wrote:
I should also make it clear that I have never said that drinking alcohol is a sin.
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1/3/19 3:12 pm


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Post Da Sheik
Sorry Wyatt- you are correct - my vision is not what it used to be! Laughing

Sorry if I have mischaracterized your position. What it “appears” that you were saying is that Jesus turning the water into wine would make everyone drunk and (more importantly ) that in turning water into wine it somehow casts a shadow upon the sinless nature of Christ.
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1/3/19 3:30 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
As I categorically deny monergism, I do not claim that “Jesus turning the water into wine would make everyone drunk.”

What seems rather obvious to me is that in making massive amounts of fully fermented wine (as some claim He did), for a “well drunk” (see Jn 2:10) party that had already been going on for some time, with all of the fermented wine having already been consumed by the participants, the miraculous supply of massive amounts of fully fermented wine would be promoting a party that would then most logically become a totally “falling down” drunken party, if the wine He created was in fact fully fermented. As we all know, the God who inspired the Scriptures condemns drunkenness. How would He not be promoting the sin of drunkenness if he turned the water into fully fermented wine? Does it not seem far more in keeping with His character to make pure, uncorrupted blood of the grape? What possible good reason would He have to help a “well drunk” crowd get even drunker? And how exactly would that reveal His glory?


Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 1/3/19 4:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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1/3/19 4:26 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Please note, I think there is an obvious distinction that must be kept in mind between “well drunk,” and “falling down drunk.” Falling down drunk comes right before you pass out. At least it did in my partying days. I also never saw a party in which a significant additional quantity of better tasting alcohol made the party more nice and sober. But, I suppose that might happen in some world. Acts-perienced Poster
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1/3/19 4:41 pm


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Post As my ... Mat
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
As I categorically deny monergism, I do not claim that “Jesus turning the water into wine would make everyone drunk.”

What seems rather obvious to me is that in making massive amounts of fully fermented wine (as some claim He did), for a “well drunk” (see Jn 2:10) party that had already been going on for some time, with all of the fermented wine having already been consumed by the participants, the miraculous supply of massive amounts of fully fermented wine would be promoting a party that would then most logically become a totally drunken party, if the wine He created was in fact fully fermented. As we all know, the God who inspired the Scriptures condemns drunkenness. How would He not be promoting the sin of drunkenness if he turned the water into fully fermented wine? Does it not seem far more in keeping with His character to make pure, uncorrupted blood of the grape? What possible good reason would He have to help a “well drunk” crowd get even drunker?


As my Sunday School teacher said, Jesus may (maybe) have turned water into wine (the fermented kind - the aged stuff), but it does not say He drank it. Perhaps he was aware that the pots used were the ones which held water for washing (including feet) before entering the party.

Mat

PS Think about what was put in to that sour mash to help it turn before you drink that White Lighting boy!
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1/3/19 4:44 pm


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