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Wine or Welch's? Let's do this one more time
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Post Dean Steenburgh
Won't be able to enjoy the debate but I will state that I could never be convinced, this side of eternity, that Jesus took jars of water & made them into an alcoholic beverage ...sorry.
Besides, if the lobby firm that represents the MADDD ever learned differently they would drop their endorsement of Jesus lol.

Seriously, we've discussed this for years & the one side will never be convinced that Jesus wouldn't make some of Gallo's best so the debate is nonsensical.

Out of my own curiosity I can't help but wonder how many hold this view so they can validate the consumption of wine in their diet?
For me I cannot.
I cannot enjoy a little wine, a little dope, a little porn, a little cigar, a little cigarette or any other "little" that has in it's depth charges the ability to sink me farther ...I cannot embrace a little fire in my bosom.


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12/23/18 12:47 pm


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Post I Totally Endorse the Biblical View FG Minister
Drinking OK, drunkenness not OK -- and I am a teetotaler! Why? Because the Bible says elders should not have any wine, or is that grape juice, or is that a heavenly fruity beverage. Acts-celerater
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12/24/18 9:33 am


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Post Re: I Totally Endorse the Biblical View spartanfan
FG Minister wrote:
Drinking OK, drunkenness not OK -- and I am a teetotaler! Why? Because the Bible says elders should not have any wine, or is that grape juice, or is that a heavenly fruity beverage.


That must mean you are not a Church of God minister because if someone joins the Church of God they must agree that they will to the best of their ability live in accordance to the bylaws of the General Assembly.


Last edited by spartanfan on 12/25/18 7:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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12/24/18 12:32 pm


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Post COG FG Minister
You are correct. I am not COG. Used to be though. But I don't drink alcohol. Acts-celerater
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12/24/18 3:50 pm


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Post Re: I Totally Endorse the Biblical View Cojak
spartanfan wrote:
FG Minister wrote:
Drinking OK, drunkenness not OK -- and I am a teetotaler! Why? Because the Bible says elders should not have any wine, or is that grape juice, or is that a heavenly fruity beverage.


That must mean you are not a Church of God minister because if someone joins the Church of God they must agree that they will to the best of their ability live in accordance to the bylaws of the General Assembly.


This position always makes me cringe. Why would that prove that old FG is not COG. He did not say he drank alcohol. I am pretty sure that many good COG Ministers have personal thoughts that do not parallel the COG view, but still do not go counter to the teachings. I know several COG preachers that are in good standing and pastor churches that do not agree with the COG official stand of tongues being the initial evidence. They do not teach or preach it, but do disagree. Many Pastors disagree with Sanctification and do not preach or teach contrary to the /COG.

Spartanfan, it seems you think one must believe completely in the COG stand or they are not qualified to be licensed, or at least that is how it sounds.

Confused
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Post Re: I Totally Endorse the Biblical View spartanfan
Cojak wrote:
spartanfan wrote:
FG Minister wrote:
Drinking OK, drunkenness not OK -- and I am a teetotaler! Why? Because the Bible says elders should not have any wine, or is that grape juice, or is that a heavenly fruity beverage.


That must mean you are not a Church of God minister because if someone joins the Church of God they must agree that they will to the best of their ability live in accordance to the bylaws of the General Assembly.


This position always makes me cringe. Why would that prove that old FG is not COG. He did not say he drank alcohol. I am pretty sure that many good COG Ministers have personal thoughts that do not parallel the COG view, but still do not go counter to the teachings. I know several COG preachers that are in good standing and pastor churches that do not agree with the COG official stand of tongues being the initial evidence. They do not teach or preach it, but do disagree. Many Pastors disagree with Sanctification and do not preach or teach contrary to the /COG.

Spartanfan, it seems you think one must believe completely in the COG stand or they are not qualified to be licensed, or at least that is how it sounds.

Confused


What I am saying to FG Minister (who after all, is not even a C of God minister) is that: if you are a Church of God minister then you should not make statements publicly that go against the Doctrinal and Practical Commitments adopted by the Church of God General Assembly Minutes. Such opinions can (and should in some cases) be expressed in the Ordained Bishops General Council for the purpose of recommending changes to the General Assembly Minutes (the Minutes do need changing from time to time and there is a proper way to accomplish that).
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12/26/18 10:49 am


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Post Da Sheik
I'm amazed at the ease with which some are comfortable changing the Word of God to align with their personal convictions and traditions. This has been going on since the dawn of time. Eve added to God's word when tempted by the serpent (Gen 3:3). Here, we have certain individuals doing the same thing with John's gospel.

As for Dr. Arrington, I have the utmost respect for him. But his position paper is just that...a polemic written against the dangers of alcohol. He starts out with a premise, then proof-texts his way through. I agree with the heart of his view- that drunkenness has ruined many a life! But I can't get on board with him trying to change the meaning of 'oinos' because it doesn't suit him.

Would he be laughed to scorn? Probably not, because I doubt he would engage in the silly straw man fallacies we have dealt with here. But to be sure, if he were to present this to a panel of Greek scholars, he wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on. Just my humble opinion!
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12/26/18 3:42 pm


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Post You’re cracking me up with your “Humble opinions” spartanfan
Da Sheik wrote:
I'm amazed at the ease with which some are comfortable changing the Word of God to align with their personal convictions and traditions. This has been going on since the dawn of time. Eve added to God's word when tempted by the serpent (Gen 3:3). Here, we have certain individuals doing the same thing with John's gospel.

As for Dr. Arrington, I have the utmost respect for him. But his position paper is just that...a polemic written against the dangers of alcohol. He starts out with a premise, then proof-texts his way through. I agree with the heart of his view- that drunkenness has ruined many a life! But I can't get on board with him trying to change the meaning of 'oinos' because it doesn't suit him.

Would he be laughed to scorn? Probably not, because I doubt he would engage in the silly straw man fallacies we have dealt with here. But to be sure, if he were to present this to a panel of Greek scholars, he wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on. Just my humble opinion!


In my “not so humble opinion” you better be glad the infamous Greek scholars who wrote all of this can’t be on your Greek scholar panel:


The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary
"It is important to note that the Hebrew word tirosh, "grape juice, unfermented wine," appearing 38 times in the Old Testament (Harris, "tirosh," Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, 2:969), is almost exclusively translated by oinos (36 times). In other words, oinos can and does refer to either unfermented or fermented wine in the Septuagint."

"In the New Testament oinos is used 33 times. Concerning the Parable of the Wineskins, the juice would be acted on by yeast from the old wineskins and would begin to foam. Such gases could split any wineskin, but especially an older one that was already stretched out (Matthew 9:17; Luke 5:37,3Cool. New wine would be grape juice (or a grapeade) mode from grape syrup while old wine would be 2 to 3 years old."

"Grapes were generally harvested in mid to late summer (Hopkins, "The Subsistence Struggles of Early Israel," p.186) and, to prevent spoilage in the intense heat, had to be processed immediately. Stored wine naturally fermented unless it was boiled down or kept cool, ..."

"There have been endless tirades and debates on the nature of the wine made by our Lord at the wedding in Cana (John 2:9,10). Sides are drawn not on the basis of the word oinos, but on the view of abstinence held. The issue seems to be whether or not Jesus would create fermented wine and contribute to the further inebriation of the wedding guests. (Had the wine been unfermented, it would not have had time to ferment since it was consumed immediately.) From the Septuagint usage noted above, the oinos could be fermented or unfermented. Suffice it to say, the "better" wine of course does not in any way imply or demand a more alcoholic, or even an alcoholic, wine at all (one would presume that any wine that God had made would be better than man-made wine)."

Sources: Strong 3631, Bauer 562, Moulton-Milligan 444, Kittel 5:162-66, Liddell-Scott 1207, Colin Brown 3:918,922

Thayer Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament
oinos [from Homer down], Septuagent for yayin, also for tirosh (must, new wine), chemer, etc.; wine; ...

Bible Wines, by William Patton, 1871, p. 52-53
GREEK, LATIN, AND ENGLISH GENERIC WORDS.

OINOS. — Biblical scholars are agreed that in the Septuagint or Greek translation of the Old Testament and in the New Testament, the word oinos corresponds to the Hebrew word yayin. Stuart says: "In the New Testament we have oinos, which corresponds exactly to the Hebrew yayin."

As both yayin and oinos are generic words, they designate the juice of the grape in all its stages.

In the Latin we have the word vinum, which the lexicon gives as equivalent to oinos of the Greek, and is rendered by the English word wine, both being generic. Here, then, are four generic words, yayin, oinos, vinum, and wine, all expressing the same generic idea, as including all sorts and kinds of the juice of the grape. Wine is generic, just as are the words groceries, hardware, merchandise, fruit, grain, and other words.

Dr. Frederic R. Lees, of England, the author of several learned articles in Kitto's Cyclopaedia, in which he shows an intimate acquaintance with the ancient languages, says: "In Hebrew, Chaldee, Greek, Syriac, Arabic, Latin, and English, the words for wine in all these languages are originally, and always, and inclusively, applied to the blood of the grape in its primitive and natural condition, as well, subsequently, as to that juice both boiled and fermented."

Dr. Laurie, on the contrary, says: "This word denotes intoxicating wine in some places of Scripture; therefore, it denotes the same in all places of Scripture." This not only begs the whole question, but is strange, very strange logic. We find the word which denotes the spirit often rendered wind or breath; shall we, therefore, conclude it always means wind orbreath, and, with the Sadducees, infer that there is neither angel nor spirit, and that there can be no resurrection? So, also, because the word translated heaven often means the atmosphere, and that there is no such place as a heaven where the redeemed will be gathered and where is the throne of God?

But the misery and delusion are that most readers of the Bible, knowing of no other than the present wines of commerce, which are intoxicating, leap to the conclusion, wine is wine all the world over — as the wine of our day is inebriating, therefore the wine mentioned in the Bible was intoxicating, and there was none other.

There is a perverse tendency in the human mind to limit a generic word to a particular species.

John Stuart Mill, in his System of Logic, says: "A generic term is always liable to become limited to a single species if people have occasion to think and speak of that species oftener than of anything else contained in the genus. The tide of custom first drifts the word on the shore of a particular meaning, then retires and leaves it there."

The truth of this is seen every day in the way in which the readers of the Bible limit the generic word wine to one of the species under it, and that an intoxicating wine.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 881
To insist on a distinction between intoxicating and unfermented wine is a case of unjustifiable special pleading.

Barnes' Notes for John 2:10
The good wine. This shows that this had all the qualities of real wine. We should not be deceived by the phrase "good wine." We often use the phrase to denote that it is good in proportion to its strength and its power to intoxicate; but no such sense is to be attached to the word here. Pliny, Plutarch, and Horace describe wine as good, or mention that as the best wine, which was harmless or innocent--poculo vini innocentis. The most useful wine -- utilissimum vinum-- was that which had little strength; and the most wholesome wine-- saluberrimum vinum-- was that which had not been adulterated by "the addition of anything to the must or juice." Pliny expressly says that a "good wine" was one that was destitute of spirit (lib. iv. c. 13). It should not be assumed, therefore, that the "good wine" was stronger than the other: it is rather to be presumed that it was milder. The wine referred to here was doubtless such as was commonly drunk in Palestine. That was the pure juice of the grape. It was not brandied wine, nor drugged wine, nor wine compounded of various substances, such as we drink in this land. The common wine drunk in Palestine was that which was the simple juice of the grape. We use the word wine now to denote the kind of liquid which passes under that name in this country--always containing a considerable portion of alcohol --not only the alcohol produced by fermentation, but alcohol added to keep it or make it stronger. But we have no right to take that sense of the word, and go with it to the interpretation of the Scriptures. We should endeavour to place ourselves in the exact circumstances of those times, ascertain precisely what idea the word would convey to those who used it then, and apply that sense to the word in the interpretation of the Bible; and there is not the slightest evidence that the word so used would have conveyed any idea but that of the pure juice of the grape, nor the slightest circumstance mentioned in this account that would not be fully met by such a supposition. No man should adduce this instance in favour of drinking wine unless he can prove that the wine made in the" water-pots" of Cana was just like the wine which he proposes to drink. The Saviour's example may be always pleaded JUST AS IT WAS; but it is a matter of obvious and simple justice that we should find out exactly what the example was before we plead it. There is, moreover, no evidence that any other part of the water was converted into wine than that which was drawn out of the water-casks for the use of the guests. On this supposition, certainly, all the circumstances of the case are met, and the miracle would be more striking. All that was needed was to furnish a supply when the wine that had been prepared was nearly exhausted. The object was not to furnish a large quantity for future use. The miracle, too, would in this way be more apparent and impressive. On this supposition, the casks would appear to be filled with water only; as it was drawn out, it was pure wine. Who could doubt, then, that there was the exertion of miraculous power? All, therefore, that has been said about the Redeemer's furnishing a large quantity of wine for the newly-married pair, and about his benevolence in doing it, is wholly gratuitous. There is no evidence of it whatever; and it is not necessary to suppose it in order to an explanation of the circumstances of the case.

Josephus, Antiquities II.V.2
He [the cupbearer] therefore siad that in his sleep he saw three clusters of grapes hanging upon three branches of a vine, large already, and ripe for gathering; and that he squeezed them into a cup which the king held in his hand; and when he had strained the wine [oinos], and that he received it from him with a plaeasant countenance.

Aristotle
The word 'wine' [oinos] is ambiguous and different wines behave in different ways.

I think Dr. Arrington could find a leg to stand on!


Last edited by spartanfan on 12/26/18 10:13 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Post Re: Your cracking me up with your “Humble opinions” Cojak
spartanfan wrote:
..

Shocked Smile
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Post I am not going to argue over what Jesus made SHINTEX
but...it for sure wasn't grape juice that the Corinthians were drinking at communion because some of them were getting drunk. That would have been a great time for Paul to explain to them that it was a sin to drink any alcohol...but he didn't.

God also missed a good chance to tell the Hebrews that it was a sin to drink alcohol back in the OT.

Duet. 14:24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household.

For the record I do think that abstinance is best but we cannot make a law where God does not.
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12/26/18 10:11 pm


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Post Re: I am not going to argue over what Jesus made Cojak
SHINTEX wrote:
but...it for sure wasn't grape juice that the Corinthians were drinking at communion because some of them were getting drunk. That would have been a great time for Paul to explain to them that it was a sin to drink any alcohol...but he didn't.

God also missed a good chance to tell the Hebrews that it was a sin to drink alcohol back in the OT.

Duet. 14:24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household.

For the record I do think that abstinance is best but we cannot make a law where God does not.

Very good incidents pointed out. Idea
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12/26/18 10:30 pm


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Post Re: I am not going to argue over what Jesus made Da Sheik
Cojak wrote:
SHINTEX wrote:
but...it for sure wasn't grape juice that the Corinthians were drinking at communion because some of them were getting drunk. That would have been a great time for Paul to explain to them that it was a sin to drink any alcohol...but he didn't.

God also missed a good chance to tell the Hebrews that it was a sin to drink alcohol back in the OT.

Duet. 14:24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household.

For the record I do think that abstinance is best but we cannot make a law where God does not.

Very good incidents pointed out. Idea


Yes, but they will be ignored or explained away. This discussion has been an excellent illustration of biblical exegesis and cultural bias. I have no proverbial “skin” in the game. I don’t drink, and I don’t encourage others to do so. So this is not a “high stakes” debate for me where there are winners and losers. But when we change the Word of God to align with our traditions, we all lose.

When Jesus told the disciples He would have to die and rise again, Peter had a really hard time with it. It didn’t fit with his idea of what the Messiah should do. So he rebuked Jesus (Matt 16:22). In the year 30 AD, drinking wine would not have been controversial at all. It was the common drink of the people. But in 2018 we have a hard time believing that Jesus would do what the scriptures say He did. So then we must take on the mammoth task of trying to explain it away.

It’s much easier just to accept truth even if it doesn’t square with your version of it.
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12/27/18 9:37 am


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Post Cojak
Da Sheik said:
In the year 30 AD, drinking wine would not have been controversial at all. It was the common drink of the people. ........

I do not know about the rest of Europe and I have never searched for #s of Alcoholics in Europe but from personal experience wine is still a common drink at the dinner table in France, Spain and italy. Even at the beaches on the Med I have seen jugs of wine in the sand around families.

No, I do not think it is cool! Nor have I read here any COG preacher encourage drinking. The COG preachers I know are t-totalers. I never argue for drinking alcohol, I only contend that Jesus did miraculously turn water to wine.

That said when I was young I was in church on average 4 and 5 times a week, counting old folks homes, YPE, SS and jail services. In Biloxi Bro Elkins was our Jail minister. I will never forget a line of his to the ones jailed, mostly for public drunkeness, "I tell you I am against drinking! Liquor in any form will send you directly to hell. Drink it and you ruin your lives as you are doing, UNLESS YOU ARE USING IT AS MEDICINE!"

Every time I heard that I could see everyone of those drunks getting a sore throat or cold. Smile
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Post Re: I Totally Endorse the Biblical View Link
FG Minister wrote:
Drinking OK, drunkenness not OK -- and I am a teetotaler! Why? Because the Bible says elders should not have any wine, or is that grape juice, or is that a heavenly fruity beverage.
where do you get that elders should not drink any wine? How did they take communion in the first century.

Do you think they did an inverse RCC mass where the priest/elder did not get the wine but the congregation did?

The word for wine includes grape juice so are elders forbidden from having Welch's?
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Post Re: I Totally Endorse the Biblical View Cojak
Link wrote:
...
where do you get that elders should not drink any wine? How did they take communion in the first century.

Link, Son you ain't paying attention![/quote] Smile Smile Smile The trees are the forest!

Okay bad joke. I think Paul said that about elders and wine. Wink

I'm headed for Okeechobee Y'all have a good day! I will be on the road and I ain't drinking!, just sayin'

Hope you are well Link and had a great Christmas... I also hope you got what you wanted for Christmas and had some grape juice! Cool
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Post I guess SHINTEX
we are done here. Friendly Face
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12/28/18 2:56 pm


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Post Re: I guess diakoneo
SHINTEX wrote:
we are done here.


and I suppose no one has changed their mind on this issue Smile

as Gomer would say:

Surprise! surprise! surprise Exclamation
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Post Re: I guess UncleJD
diakoneo wrote:
SHINTEX wrote:
we are done here.


and I suppose no one has changed their mind on this issue Smile

as Gomer would say:

Surprise! surprise! surprise Exclamation


I guess everyone is too old. I changed my mind once upon a time. But it took an honest and unbiased approach that we tend to lose as we age (myself included I'm sure).
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Post I have changed my mind... Cojak
Yes just like most Religious organizations, even the Amish have changed a little in the last 50 years. They will even use a phone now, but not in their home. It must be outside.

Only a couple times over my life time have I changed my mind drastically in a short time. Usually it is over years. I think we all know if the pioneer preachers in the COG were to attend some of our churches they would "GASP and cry out to God for revival." Mainly over the 'apparel, makeup, women in pants, some men in Bermuda shorts, hair and jewelry.

Yes, I did change my mind also about the grape juice and wine. I understand the fear of alcoholism, my family was greatly effected by it. I DO NOT condemn anyone for using grape juice or wine at communion. It is symbolic, not HIS blood.

So no it is not a surprise that no one was convinced YEA or NAY on grape juice and wine. But I try to read comments in context and learn how my brothers and sisters think.

At 80, I still learn at these discussions even though it seems that the same thing is said over and over again. Every once in awhile I catch a gem.

Thanks. I liked the approach DA Sheik used in starting the 'ever so often discussion of wine.' I certainly did not get the idea he 'approved' of drinking or that he was a closet drinker. Anyway it has been interesting. Cool
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12/28/18 7:09 pm


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Post Re: I guess krista
diakoneo wrote:
SHINTEX wrote:
we are done here.


and I suppose no one has changed their mind on this issue Smile

as Gomer would say:

Surprise! surprise! surprise Exclamation


And there it is?
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