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Wine or Welch's? Let's do this one more time
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Post It's Hard to Debate One Subject when Spartan Wants to Debate Other Stuff FG Minister
I am quite sure that Spartan was a politician at some time as he doesn't want to address the subject at hand, but instead tries to divert our attention to "shiny things" like surveys and prognostications by medical professionals. Let me blow your mind Spartan - I have no problem with the studies. They appear to be well-researched. But you could have posted the latest college ping pong scores as far as I am concerned, if there are such things.

The question at hand is not what 21st Century America/Canada has to say about alcohol usage. The issue is about 1st Century scriptural admonitions about alcohol. Period. The owner of the wedding feast said the wine Jesus provided was the best wine of the evening! He had been serving fermented wine, and now says that grape juice or as Spartan would have us believe, a heavenly, fruity, non-alcoholic drink is BETTER than the wine. Sorry - ain't buying it. Then we have Paul forbidding non-alcoholic, fruity drinks to elders, if Spartan is correct. Ain't buying that either. Just admit it - the Bible condemns drunkenness, not drinking.

Personally, I wish Spartan was correct and there was total prohibition on alcohol. But as a Bible preacher I cannot make the Bible say what it doesn't say, no matter how many studies we find. This is how heresy gets into the church and cults are formed. This is also how preachers lose credibility. Preach the Bible Spartan and you won't go wrong!


Last edited by FG Minister on 12/16/18 9:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post Re: It's Hard to Debate One Subject when Spartan Wants to Debate Other Stuff Dave Dorsey
FG Minister wrote:
I am quite sure that Spartan was a politician at some time as he doesn't want to address the subject at hand, but instead tries to divert our attention to "shiny things" like surveys and prognostications by medical professionals. Let me blow your mind Spartan - I have no problem with the studies. They appear to be well-researched. But you could have posted the latest college ping pong scores as far as I am concerned, if there are such things.

And then he attempts to claim victory because we won't engage him on his rabbit trails! In the other thread, he said he always shuts down these conversations by proving it was grape juice. Here he's done everything but, but claims the debate has been won when there's no rebuttal to his non-points.

Spartanfan, you need to answer straight up whether having a drink in moderation is a sin. You need to answer straight up if you would fellowship and take communion with a (non-COG, non-AOG) minister who taught that drinking in moderation is not a sin, and practiced it himself. Quit with all these rabbit trails and be clear about what you are saying and what you believe. It doesn't matter what the Guardian says about alcohol, it matters what the Bible says.

True or false:

1) It is a sin for any believer to drink, even if they are doing so in what they believe is moderation

2) Ministers who teach that drinking in "moderation" is permissible, or practice it themselves, are not fit for ministry

Let's cut the nonsense and rabbit trails and be clear about what we believe. My answers are FALSE and FALSE.
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12/16/18 8:44 am


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Post My Answers to Mr. Dorsey's Questions FG Minister
False
False
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12/16/18 9:10 am


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Post French Arrington's Biblical Response spartanfan
So let's avoid the "rabbits trails" and go strait up at what the Bible says about total abstinence from alcoholic beverages! I think we need a great Bible teacher/interpreter to get to the bottom of it like French Arrington. French Arrington is considered to be one of the best Church of God Theologians - ever! He deals with the subject from the view of the Scripture - rightly dividing the Word of Truth. I'm sure all would agree that he knows the Bible as good or better than any of us Actscelerate contributors.

He writes in his doctrine and polity paper confirming our stance of total abstinence based on properly interpreting the Bible text the following:

"The Bible and Alcoholic Beverages
Both the Old and the New Testaments employ a number of words for alcoholic drink. The major Hebrew words are yayin (wine) and shekar (strong drink), and the Greek is oinos (wine). Leading Hebrew and Greek lexicons indicate that these Biblical terms refer to drinks that have some alcoholic content. Even sweet or new wine (Hebrew: asis and Greek: gleukos), which was probably still fermenting and thought by many to be mere grape juice, can be intoxicating (Isa. 49:26).

Alcohol in the Old Testament
The first example of the evil effects of alcohol in the Old Testament is the story of Noah (Gen. 9:20-27). In this story, drunkenness led to shame and to family tragedy and a curse placed upon Canaan. Wine was also a factor in incest that led to the pregnancies of Lot’s daughters (Gen. 19:31-3Cool. We also see cautions regarding alcohol in Solomon’s writings; for example, “Wine is a mockery, strong drink is raging; and whoever is deceived thereby is not wise” (Prov. 20:1; cf. 23:29-35).

In summary, the Old Testament opposes the use of alcohol for these major reasons:

Strong drink distorts the perception of reality and impairs performance (Isa. 29:7).
Strong drink interferes with sound judgment and the capacity to make responsible decisions (Lev. 10:9-11).
Strong drink weakens spiritual and moral sensitivities (Isa. 5:11-12).
Strong drink can lead to addiction (Prov. 23:35).
These reasons are sufficient grounds for Christians to abstain and not even consider drinking.

Alcohol in the New Testament
The New Testament also speaks about the grave effects of alcoholic beverage (oinos, wine).

Many references to wine (except its medicinal use in 1 Tim. 5:23 and a few others) are strong warnings or prohibitions against its use. A powerful indictment against wine is in Eph. 5:18, where the use of alcoholic drink has the potential of causing wild and disorderly conduct. The warning is that being under the control of strong drink is totally incompatible with being filled with the Holy Spirit.

In his inspired wisdom, Paul establishes spiritual requirements for those holding office in the Church of our Lord. He instructs the church leaders, whether pastors (1 Tim. 3:3; Tit. 1:7) or deacons (1 Tim. 3:8,) regarding the consumption of alcohol to be “blameless,” strongly implying total abstinence is the Biblical standard.

Therefore, such passages should not be interpreted to allow church leaders to drink alcoholic beverages in moderation. In Paul’s day, wine was one of the safest liquids to drink. At that time, people often suffered from parasites and other health ailments because of drinking contaminated water. Wine was a mixed drink with several parts of it water, and therefore different from the wine consumed today. The Greeks, the Jews, and the early church fathers left no doubt that “wine” meant wine mixed with water (Robert H. Stein, “Wine Drinking in New Testament Times,” Christianity Today, June 20, 1975, pp. 9-11). No longer is drinking water a health problem in much of the world, especially in developed countries. In America today, there is no need for alcoholic beverages to be used for health purposes. In ancient times, the drinking of wine was a safety measure.

Another argument against moderate drinking and for total abstinence is that the New Testament calls Christians to sobriety (napho 1 Thess. 5:1-11; 2 Tim. 4:5; 1 Pet. 1:13; 4:7) and temperance (naphalios, 1 Tim. 3:2, 11; Titus 2:2). (Otto Baurfeind, napho, naphalios, enapho, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. 4, trans. by Geoffrey Bromiley). Though these passages do not refer only to alcohol as causing impairment, they certainly include it.

Paul’s advice does not justify social or recreational drinking. Frequently, the Bible calls believers to a lifestyle contrary to the ungodly and undisciplined culture (cf. Luke 21:34-36; Rom. 13:12- 14; Gal. 5:19-24). We should remember that Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach (1 Tim. 5:23). This advice Paul gave could well indicate that Timothy practiced total abstinence. If Timothy drank wine, even in moderation, there would have been no need for Paul to instruct him to use some wine for health purposes. It should not be forgotten that in Bible times, medicines were very rare and few medical aids were available to treat human ailments. Since wine was readily available, it is understandable why it was used for medicine. In the first century, the alcohol content of wine was typically about two to six percent. Today, alcoholic drinks are far more potent (A.R.S. Kennedy, “Wine and Strong Drink,” Dictionary of the Bible). Even so, one could overdo the drinking of diluted wine, as some of the Biblical characters likely did (Gen. 9:20-27; 19:30-3Cool.

Jesus and Strong Drink
On one occasion Jesus contrasted Himself with John the Baptist. He said, “For John came neither eating nor drinking and they (the Pharisees) say, ‘He has a demon!’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard’” (Matt.

11:18-19). He did not offer an apology for His behavior. He had done nothing for which to apologize.

When one hears the use of alcohol discussed, reference is usually made to Jesus’ miracle of turning water into wine at Cana (John 2:1-11). Does this miracle indicate that Jesus approved of the consumption of alcohol? Before we reach a conclusion, we need to look at the features of this event from several angles:

We cannot be certain that what Jesus created had alcoholic content. The headmaster of the feast was impressed with what Jesus produced, declaring, “Every man serves the good wine first and when men have drunk freely, then that which is poorer; but you have kept the good wine until now” (2:10). His comment was probably on how good the wine tasted, that is, its quality, not on the alcoholic content.
The primary purpose of the miracle was to manifest Jesus’ glory (v. 11). To say that the Son of God showed forth his glory by producing gallons of intoxicating wine seems to gofar off base. The miracle manifested Christ’s sovereignty over the natural world and his power to transform the lives of people.
The focus of the miracle was on its spiritual significance, not on the wine. John described it as a “sign” which drew attention to the saving power of Jesus (2:11) and indicated that there was much more to the miracle than to provide the wedding guests with something to drink.
John presents the wedding as a sober event in tone, not telling what happened after Jesus did the miracle. The account closes without any hint that the wedding feast turned into a drunken spree.
There is no indication that Jesus drank any of the wine produced by the miracle. Jesus knew well the teaching of the Old Testament on strong drink (Prov. 23:29-35; Hab. 2:15; Amos 2:8, 12; 4:1).
There is no proof that Jesus ever drank alcohol. Sound interpretation of Holy Scripture avoids promoting a practice based on silence.

Making the Decision for Total Abstinence

Because of the effects of drinking alcoholic beverages, the Bible is against drinking alcohol (Prov. 23:29-35). In fact, in the New Testament there appears to be a clear movement toward the rejection of the use of alcohol and for total abstinence. Such a movement is known as the “Biblical process.” For example, in the New Testament we can see the significance of the Biblical process in reference to the actual drink used in the Lord’s Supper. When Jesus instituted the Supper, he did not use the term “wine” (oinos). Rather he spoke of “the fruit of the vine” (Matt. 26:26-27; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:17-20). Furthermore, Paul speaks of “the cup” when referring to the beverage used in the Supper (1 Cor. 10:16, 21; 11:23-2Cool. The point is, it is very significant that there is no reference in Scripture to wine in connection with the Lord’s Supper. Does this suggest something about Jesus’ and Paul’s attitude regarding strong drink?

In light of the teaching of the Bible, here are four compelling Biblical principles for Christians to abstain from all alcoholic beverages.

The principle of Christ’s lordship (1 Cor. 6:20). Christians are free, but not free to do whatever they want. They belong to Christ and should put forth every effort to honor His lordship in their
The principle of edifying others. Paul’s advice is “Let all things be done for edification” (1 Cor. 14:26; cf. 10:23). Christians are to avoid any behavior (including drinking) that influences others to engage in activities that may be to their spiritual and physical detriment.
The principle of the proper treatment of the body. The Christian’s body is the temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19-20). Whatever Christians do against their bodies affects the residence of the Holy Spirit and God’s creative masterpiece. The body is sacred and is destined for resurrection (1 Cor. 6:13ff.).
Some argue that there are health benefits in wine. Researchers from Harvard Medical School report that wine has anti-aging proprieties; but rather than being from the alcoholic content, the anti-aging proprieties are the resveratrol in the red skins of the grapes (www.google.com/health+benefits+of=wine+). Moreover, medical authorities remind us that alcohol has significant adverse health effects.

The principle of doing all to God’s glory. Paul says,“Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God” (1 Cor.10:31). Whatever activity a Christian engages in—all must be to God’s glory. There is no glory for God in the pursuit of pleasure that has no regard for the detrimental influence it has on others and oneself.

It is inconceivable that God approves of the use of alcohol. Living for the glory of God includes the practice of total abstinence."

I'm sure that some of you who would eagerly argue with me will also be glad to present yourself as a greater Theologian than French. roflol
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12/16/18 4:51 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
spartanfan -- can we therefore assume your answers to the questions are TRUE and TRUE? [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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Post Let me ask you... spartanfan
Dave Dorsey wrote:
spartanfan -- can we therefore assume your answers to the questions are TRUE and TRUE?


Based upon French Arrington's position paper, what would you assurme his answers would be?
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12/16/18 6:08 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
I'm not asking what French Arrington's answers to the questions are, I'm asking what yours are. Here they are again for your convenience:

True or false:

1) It is a sin for any believer to drink, even if they are doing so in what they believe is moderation

2) Ministers who teach that drinking in "moderation" is permissible, or practice it themselves, are not fit for ministry

Please respond with two words.
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12/16/18 6:28 pm


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Post Sooooo...... spartanfan
Dave Dorsey wrote:
I'm not asking what French Arrington's answers to the questions are, I'm asking what yours are. Here they are again for your convenience:

True or false:

1) It is a sin for any believer to drink, even if they are doing so in what they believe is moderation

2) Ministers who teach that drinking in "moderation" is permissible, or practice it themselves, are not fit for ministry

Please respond with two words.


Sooo my opinion is more valuable than French's? Thank you for the compliment but I don't think so. As a Church of God minister I totally subscribe to and promote the Church of God position on the subject. If you want to know exactly what that is then you must simply read the Bible concerning it or to "cut to the chase" just read the doctrine and polity position paper on the subject by French Arrington (my favorite teacher by the way).
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Post Dave Dorsey
Okay dude. For someone who seems to feel so strongly about it, you sure are reluctant to clearly state your personal belief and position.

If you aren't willing to answer two simple questions with two simple words, going forward here is pointless. Thanks for the discussion.
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Post Your questions are too ambiguous..... spartanfan
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Okay dude. For someone who seems to feel so strongly about it, you sure are reluctant to clearly state your personal belief and position.

If you aren't willing to answer two simple questions with two simple words, going forward here is pointless. Thanks for the discussion.


Are you talking about it being a sin for a Church of God minister who pledged to abide by the Minutes of the General Assembly to drink or just anyone who calls their self a minister? Do you think that making a pledge to abide by the rulings of the General Assembly and accepting ordination with that being a part of the basis of that ordination has any bearing on this whatsoever?

Are we coming from different backgrounds and covenants in regard to ministry?

Are you a licensed Church of God (Cleveland, Tn) minister? And is it "being a sin" the only thing that matters - does it being irresponsible, hypocritical, damaging and immature matter at all?

I would imagine you are not CoG. I pretty much shut the CoG boys promoting the consumption of alcohol down rather quickly on this - for about the 10th time.
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Post Dave Dorsey
There's absolutely nothing ambiguous about either of my questions, especially not the first one. I am not sure why you feel the need to spend hundreds of words dancing around them instead of simply answering them.

I am sure you have found that a lot of people simply stop engaging with you on this topic after a few rounds of this dance. That is what I am going to do, and I suppose I will be one more person on your scoreboard who you have "shut down".
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Post diakoneo
C. S. Lewis from Mere Christianity:
Quote:
It is a mistake to think that Christians ought all to be teetotallers. . .Of course it may be the duty of a particular Christian, or of any Christian, at a particular time, to abstain from strong drink, either because he is the sort of man who cannot drink at all without drinking too much, or because he is with people who are inclined to drunkenness and must not encourage them by drinking himself. But the whole point is that he is abstaining, for good reason, from something which he does not condemn and which he likes to see other people enjoying. One of the marks of a certain type of bad man is that he cannot give up a thing himself without wanting everyone else to give it up. That is not the Christian way. An individual Christian may see fit to give up all sorts of things for special reasons–marriage, or meat, or beer, or the cinema; but the moment he starts saying the things are bad in themselves, or looking down his nose at other people who do use them, he has taken the wrong turning.

One great piece of mischief has been done by the modern restriction of the word Temperance to the question of drink. It helps people forget that you can be just as intemperate about lots of other things. A man who makes his golf or his motor-bicycle the centre of his life, or a woman who devotes all her thoughts to clothes or bridge or her dog, is being just as ‘intemperate’ as someone who gets drunk every evening. Of course, it does not show on the outside so easily: bridge-mania or golf-mania do not make you fall down in the middle of the road. But God is not deceived by externals.
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Post Great! spartanfan
The argument against the Church of God position regarding our Practical Commitments has now shifted to the opinion of an Anglican 😁 Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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Post Re: Great! diakoneo
spartanfan wrote:
The argument against the Church of God position regarding our Practical Commitments has now shifted to the opinion of an Anglican 😁


Yes, congratulations!
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Post Re: Sooooo...... Link
spartanfan wrote:
Dave Dorsey wrote:
I'm not asking what French Arrington's answers to the questions are, I'm asking what yours are. Here they are again for your convenience:

True or false:

1) It is a sin for any believer to drink, even if they are doing so in what they believe is moderation

2) Ministers who teach that drinking in "moderation" is permissible, or practice it themselves, are not fit for ministry

Please respond with two words.


Sooo my opinion is more valuable than French's? Thank you for the compliment but I don't think so. As a Church of God minister I totally subscribe to and promote the Church of God position on the subject. If you want to know exactly what that is then you must simply read the Bible concerning it or to "cut to the chase" just read the doctrine and polity position paper on the subject by French Arrington (my favorite teacher by the way).


I've never read the French Arrington paper, but if we can simply read the Bible concerning your position, are we to understand that you are in favor of a little wine for the stomach's sake, not being drunk with wine, and deacons not being given to too much wine? That you find it acceptable that the Son of Man came eating and drinking?
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Post Cojak
I assume total abstinence must mean over the counter medications that contain alcohol. Yeah I know that is silly but some vanilla extract flavoring contains 35% alcohol also.

sorta like that caffeine and drug thingee! Wink Smile Surprised

Wine or grape juice. The scriptures during interpretation, are so inconsistent. The average Bible reader can never know what it means. He must always go to the experts to find out. NOW comes the problem, which experts?

So friends, I believe the scripture. God knows my heart and my limited knowledge. I am glad he is THE understanding Father. I do love Him so, and that is not being 'cute', just honest. God allowed something to be written that said His Son turned the Water to Wine in a document He Knew would be known as the HOly Scripture (HIS WORD) by millions, and did not strike those writers DEAD.
I believe it.
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Post Re: Sooooo...... spartanfan
Link wrote:
spartanfan wrote:
Dave Dorsey wrote:
I'm not asking what French Arrington's answers to the questions are, I'm asking what yours are. Here they are again for your convenience:

True or false:

1) It is a sin for any believer to drink, even if they are doing so in what they believe is moderation

2) Ministers who teach that drinking in "moderation" is permissible, or practice it themselves, are not fit for ministry

Please respond with two words.


Sooo my opinion is more valuable than French's? Thank you for the compliment but I don't think so. As a Church of God minister I totally subscribe to and promote the Church of God position on the subject. If you want to know exactly what that is then you must simply read the Bible concerning it or to "cut to the chase" just read the doctrine and polity position paper on the subject by French Arrington (my favorite teacher by the way).


I've never read the French Arrington paper, but if we can simply read the Bible concerning your position, are we to understand that you are in favor of a little wine for the stomach's sake, not being drunk with wine, and deacons not being given to too much wine? That you find it acceptable that the Son of Man came eating and drinking?


Read the French Arrington paper and then you'll understand the proper way to interpret those few pet scriptures that y'all keep regurgitating a false impression of. He is one of the greatest Theologians in CoG history. We can all learn a lot from him.
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Post Re: Great! UncleJD
spartanfan wrote:
The argument against the Church of God position regarding our Practical Commitments has now shifted to the opinion of an Anglican 😁


1. This thread is NOT about the Church of God practical commitments, you have changed the subject.

2. C.S. Lewis is correct here, regardless of his denomination. When your position is not Biblical, but IS Koran(ical), then you have to pivot the argument to feelings and opinions (i.e. "moving the goalposts") instead of keeping it to the Bible as was the original post.
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Post Re: Sooooo...... FLRon
spartanfan wrote:
Link wrote:
spartanfan wrote:
Dave Dorsey wrote:
I'm not asking what French Arrington's answers to the questions are, I'm asking what yours are. Here they are again for your convenience:

True or false:

1) It is a sin for any believer to drink, even if they are doing so in what they believe is moderation

2) Ministers who teach that drinking in "moderation" is permissible, or practice it themselves, are not fit for ministry

Please respond with two words.


Sooo my opinion is more valuable than French's? Thank you for the compliment but I don't think so. As a Church of God minister I totally subscribe to and promote the Church of God position on the subject. If you want to know exactly what that is then you must simply read the Bible concerning it or to "cut to the chase" just read the doctrine and polity position paper on the subject by French Arrington (my favorite teacher by the way).


I've never read the French Arrington paper, but if we can simply read the Bible concerning your position, are we to understand that you are in favor of a little wine for the stomach's sake, not being drunk with wine, and deacons not being given to too much wine? That you find it acceptable that the Son of Man came eating and drinking?


Read the French Arrington paper and then you'll understand the proper way to interpret those few pet scriptures that y'all keep regurgitating a false impression of. He is one of the greatest Theologians in CoG history. We can all learn a lot from him.


How sad that you would think any man's private interpretation of scripture would be elevated above the Word itself. French Arrington is absolutely wrong in his paper because he has rejected the Word in favor of his own interpretation. That you would promulgate his error says to me that you love to have your ears tickled. No thanks,I'll stand firmly on God's truth as revealed in the scriptures. You can have the false teaching of Arrington and his ilk and go on blindly following the blind.
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12/17/18 9:54 am


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Post Re: It's Hard to Debate One Subject when Spartan Wants to Debate Other Stuff Dave Dorsey
FG Minister wrote:
Personally, I wish Spartan was correct and there was total prohibition on alcohol. But as a Bible preacher I cannot make the Bible say what it doesn't say, no matter how many studies we find. This is how heresy gets into the church and cults are formed. This is also how preachers lose credibility. Preach the Bible Spartan and you won't go wrong!

This is all it comes down to, regardless of what any theologian says. The Bible is not vague or unclear on this topic, and no matter how much a theologian tries to prove what he wishes the text said, it cannot be done.

The Bible commands moderation and forbids drunkenness. Abstinence is probably a good idea for many people. But legalism is taking something that is a good idea and making it a command. I would argue that COG ministers should keep their vows, but I would also propose that the COG is in error by binding the hearts of men to man-made commandments. There is no biblical command for abstinence and one ceases being a preacher of the Word when he tries to make one.


Last edited by Dave Dorsey on 12/17/18 11:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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12/17/18 11:48 am


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