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Wine or Welch's? Let's do this one more time
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Post Wine or Welch's? Let's do this one more time Da Sheik
Try, if possible, to lay aside presuppositions, prejudices, and cultural differences. (It's hard to do)

I will try to make this as precise and succinct as possible. I believe that when the Bible says that Christ turned the water into wine that it means exactly that. The irony is that when John wrote this, I highly doubt he would have foreseen the debate that surrounds this passage of scripture in a post-prohibitionist America. The fact that the wine would have been aged/fermented would not have been the least bit controversial.

Some will say that the Greek word translated "wine" in English (oinos) doesn't really mean "wine". This is intellectually dishonest. You can't have it both ways. When the scripture says in Ephesians "be not drunk with wine (oinos)", it is doubtful that anyone would suggest Paul is referring to grape juice. But beyond this, let's consider the even bigger picture here. Indulge me for a moment if you would be so kind:

John's Gospel is unique. It contains the Prologue. The Genesis of the New Testament. From the first few verses, Jesus is presented as God. Furthermore, it contains the 7 "I AM" statements. There are also 7 miracles in the Gospel of John. John also gives us a mission statement for why he wrote the Gospel in the first place:

Joh 20:30  And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 
Joh 20:31  But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.  (ESV) (emphasis mine)

So out of all of these miracles/signs that Jesus did, John chose to record 7. Guess which one Jesus did first? Wink This first miracle was a private miracle. It was not done for the multitudes (the ruler of the feast and the vast wedding party had no clue where the wine came from). We read that this first miracle caused the disciples to believe on Him.

Joh 2:11  This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him. (ESV)

Don't miss this phrase: "manifested His glory". Remember in the first chapter John presents Jesus as the Word who was "with" God and the Word who "was" God . He is presented to all of us not only as the Son, but as Creator of the Universe. This helps us understand why the wine was likely aged "wine" and not grape juice. When God breathed life into man and he became a living soul he came alive as a full-grown man. Adam did not come to the world like Christ, as a baby. He was created a full-grown man. It is logical that the rest of Creation was created with age as well (mature trees, foilage, etc). All of these things could also help us resolve any perceived conflicts between Old-Earth and Young Earth creationists, but I digress....

The ruler of the feast in John 2 clearly noticed that the wine was "the good stuff". Not watered down. Surely the man knew the difference between a fine aged wine, and something that had been greatly diluted. Just as God created a full grown man and a Creation with age built in, I have no doubt Christ created the finest wine any man had ever drank or ever has since.

Does it impact my faith one way or another? Not really. But for the reasons I have outlined above, the most logical thing to do is take scripture at face value. But now I shall lurk and see who comes forth to say "the bible doesn't really mean wine when it says wine".
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12/12/18 3:42 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
Why is there only two choices?

Wine or Welch's?

Why not door number 3?

If we believe there is a heavenly language - why not a heavenly drink?
Perhaps it tastes better than any wine - without the inebriating qualities of the earthly fermented stuff?

The disciples were often seeing heavenly things and making some type of earthly explanation.

Jesus was strongly against fermenting bread (leaven) - why would he be good with fermenting grapes?
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12/12/18 4:38 pm


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Post sheepdogandy
Jesus got folks drunk.

Not.

Welch's for us.

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

1Th 5:8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

Tit 2:2 that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience;

1Pe 1:13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

Sober!
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12/12/18 6:22 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
Da Sheik, why'd you go to all that trouble to take a scholarly look at the original language, and do all that excellent exegesis in your post, when you could have just searched your online Bible for the word "sober", posted a bunch of single verses ripped from their context, and settled this once and for all?

Excellent post, by the way, even if you did it the hard way!
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12/12/18 6:31 pm


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Post diakoneo
I prefer Welch's myself. My wife's cousin is very "world travelled". He brought us some very fine wine (supposedly) once. It tasted awful to me but I didn't tell him that Wink

I suppose the head of the feast would know the difference between wine and grape juice, don't you?? Also having drank some wine already at the feast, he wouldn't lie and say it was the best stuff he had tasted.

How many people drink Welch's at a wedding?

I do believe that the wine that Jesus would create would not have an enebriating effect, in fact just the opposite. Perhaps giving a greater awareness of His glory to His disciples.
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12/12/18 8:38 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
In my view, those who argue over whether this miracle involved fermented wine or fresh blood of the grape entirely miss the point of the passage. The passage is meant to teach that Jesus gives the new wine of the Spirit, just as He is the bread from Heaven, gives living water, is the door to the sheep, and so forth. Acts-perienced Poster
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12/12/18 10:11 pm


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Post FLRon
I have to admit that I have never quite understood why this issue remains so contentious. Is there any other topic that we struggle with accepting that what actually happened, did in fact happen, just as the Bible says?

It is my understanding that the Greek word translated "wine" is oinos, which was the common Greek word for table wine, wine that was fermented. Seems logical to me that if the Lord changed the water into something other than oinos, there surely would have been a different word used.

The Greek word (oinos) for the wine Jesus created is also the same word that is used in Ephesians 5:18, where Paul warns ‘not to be drunk with wine’.....Obviously, Paul understood that drinking wine in excess would lead to drunkenness because of the presence of alcohol.

While I do not drink alcohol nor do I suggest that anyone should, my reasons are strictly based upon the damage I have seen it inflict on friends, family, and society, not because to do so would run afoul of John’s gospel.

YMMV, as always!
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Post UncleJD
I just love the social progressive movement started by the American church in the late 19th century! It gave us teetotalism (a Muslim belief), birth-control, and eventually lead to its modern continuation of gay-everything, abortion, hyper-feminism, and so much more! YEA PROGRESS! Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
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12/13/18 9:48 am


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Post sheepdogandy
Nothing out of context DD.

The Bible says SOBER!

Now do you really believe that our Lord Jesus Christ served alcohol to the folks at the wedding feast.

Not my Jesus.

The ingestion of alcohol affects one's brain.

My father died an alcoholic.

Jesus did not contribute to his condition.
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Post UncleJD
sheepdogandy wrote:
Nothing out of context DD.

The Bible says SOBER!

Now do you really believe that our Lord Jesus Christ served alcohol to the folks at the wedding feast.

Not my Jesus.

The ingestion of alcohol affects one's brain.

My father died an alcoholic.

Jesus did not contribute to his condition.


Sorry for your father, not trying to be disrespectful here, but sincerely speaking, the potential for abuse is not the same thing as sin, nor is that statement to be equated to "Jesus condoning" the abuse. For example, money. Many people abuse it, Jesus spoke against that just like the Bible speaks against drunkenness, but the proper use of money, although some have sinned unto death with its abuse, is not a sin.
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12/13/18 1:25 pm


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Post Da Sheik
I started this thread due to the other thread lamenting the lack of participation here. I thought a good debate on this first miracle might generate some traffic here. But I also wanted to illustrate a point. We all come to the biblical text with some kind of prejudice or presupposition. Such thinking hinders us from sound exegesis. Even though the scripture tells us that Jesus turned the water into wine, some simply cannot accept it because of bias.

So we find ourselves thinking (and saying) "well this can't mean what it plainly says because I just don't think Jesus would do that". The Pharisees had great difficulty with Jesus too. It seems he never met their expectations. I chuckle inside every time I read where Jesus did something good on the Sabbath day.
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12/13/18 3:53 pm


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Post Link
Nature Boy Florida wrote:

Jesus was strongly against fermenting bread (leaven) - why would he be good with fermenting grapes?


Really? The Jews were to abstain from leaven during the week of unleaven bread and Passover season, but otherwise, they were allowed to use leaven. Do you think Jesus only ate crackers all the time while everyone else was eating bread outside of Passover season?

Non-fermented grape juice was considered not kosher for Passover. Grape juice had yeast in it. In order to get it out, the wine had to be fully fermented and then the yeast would die. They would then slough the dead yeast off the top. It is only in the 20th century that Jews would accept a processed grape juice (through new technology) as kosher for Passover. Jesus said that the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. All whatsoever they command you observe, that observe and do....

What basis is there for thinking that Jesus would have been opposed to 'real wine.' He lived before John Wesley and early Methodist preaching against distilled liquor evolved into preaching against beer, wine, etc. He lived before the temperence movement. The religious thinking for teetotalerism that Holiness, some Baptist, and Pentecostal had against all alcohol consumption hadn't been invented yet.
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Post Cojak
My Lord simply turned the water to wine. A normal wine, but very good. From my understanding this was NORMAL at a wedding feast. I am sure some drank too much and ate too much, neither good for their health. BUT WE humans do this in celebrations or at homecomings and buffets..

Jesus did not announce, 'Y'all just get drunk, if you need more just say so."

He in this case neither condoned nor denied the use of wine at dinner he simply did something no one else could do produced a product expected at the occasion..

I have no condemnation to those who say it was not wine nor those who say it was wine. I am just 'common sense mined' enough to believe this was a 'very good' wine my Lord miraculously made.

As far as a heavenly drink, I would think if that was the case that would have been the BEST miracle and would have been recorded. i.e.

"Jesus turned the water into a heavenly drink and all were astounded."

To the OP, I think it is well written and pretty thorough. Cool Thumb Up
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Post From the Fire Bible (Originally the Full Life Study Bible)... Quiet Wyatt
Wine in Bible Times
Jn 2:11 "This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed at Cana in Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him."
Wine in the ancient world. The production of grapes, both for eating and for squeezing into juice, was a very important part of the agriculture of the ancient Mediterranean world. Vineyards, fresh grapes, raisins and wine are frequently mentioned in both the Old and New Testaments.
The subject of wine in the NT raises several questions about the use of wine then and the use of wine today. The list of questions often include the following:

(1) When the NT mentions "wine" (Gk oinos), was it always alcoholic as in modern times?

(2) How would the alcoholic content in ancient fermented wine compare with that of various wines today?

(3) Did Jesus use fermented (i.e., alcoholic) wine? (Fermentation is the biochemical process where yeast acts on sugars, breaking them down into alcohol and causing a beverage to become potentially intoxicating).

Certainly, it is incorrect and even unreasonable to claim that wine mentioned in the Bible was never alcoholic since the Bible contains many warnings and restrictions about intoxicating wine (e.g., Pr 20:1; 23:31, Eph 5:18; Tit 2:3; 1Pe 4:3). However, it would be just as unreasonable to claim that all wine mentioned in the Bible was alcoholic. Those who are persuaded that all wine was alcoholic argue that since refrigeration was unavailable in ancient times, there was no way to preserve wine. Therefore, it would naturally ferment in the warm Mediterranean climate if it was not consumed immediately. But this view ignores a large amount of evidence provided by ancient writers such as Pliny ( Natural History 14.11.83) and Columella ( De re rustica [On Agriculture] 12.29) who explain in detail the production of non-alcoholic wine known as aigloukos ("always sweet").

Pliny and Columella (and others) describe putting fresh squeezed juice into sealed containers and storing them under cold water until outside temperatures were low enough to keep the substance cool. This method, which could keep the juice sweet and fresh for about a year, would have worked well in the land of Israel (see Dt 8:7; 11:11-12; Ps 65:9-13). People in the ancient world often preferred "sweet wines" since there were few choices of things to drink compared with the great variety that we have today. Because fermentation chemically reduces the natural sugars in grape juice, alcoholic wines were not as sweet as unfermented juice. For this reason, different processes were used to keep the freshly squeezed juice sweet, but unfermented.

The most common method of preserving wine in a non-alcoholic state for long periods was to boil the fresh grape juice down to about a third of its original volume, then store it in large clay jars or containers made of sheep or goat skin. Because of the high sugar content, it resisted spoiling over a long period and did not ferment (Columella, 12.19.1-6 and 20.1-8; Pliny, 14.11.80). Later, water could be added back to produce a flowing, like-fresh reconstituted (i.e., returned to a liquid state) juice again. At other times, water was added in order to dilute fermented wine, perhaps to reduce the percentage of alcohol or simply to increase the amount available according to the need or occasion.
Greek and Roman authors gave various ratios or proportions that were used in mixing grape beverages. Homer ( Odyssey IX.208ff) mentions a ratio of twenty parts water to one part wine. Pliny (14.6.54) mentions a ratio of eight parts water to one part wine. In general, about three parts water to one part wine was the typical blend. A three-to-one ratio is mentioned for use in both Hesiod ( Works and Days, 596) and the Jewish Talmud (Shabbath 77a; b. Pesachim 108b).

Among Jewish people in Bible times, social and religious customs often required wine to be mixed or diluted, especially if it was fermented. The Talmud (a Jewish work that describes the traditions of Judaism and Jewish religious law from about 200 B.C. to A.D. 200) discusses this topic several times. Some Jewish rabbis insisted that unless fermented (i.e., potentially intoxicating) wine was mixed with at least three parts water, it could not be blessed and would defile, or spiritually corrupt, the one who drank it.
An interesting passage in the book of Revelation refers to "the wine of God's fury," by declaring that it will be "full strength" (Rev 14:10; see Jer 25:15, note). It was stated in that way because the original readers normally would expect grape beverages to be mixed with water (see Jn 2:3, notes).
Wine: fermented or unfermented? The most common Biblical word for "wine" is the Greek word oinos (e.g., Lk 7:33). Oinos can refer to two distinctly different types of wine from grapes: (1) unfermented juice and (2) fermented, or intoxicating, wine. This is supported by the following data.

(1) The Greek word oinos was often used by secular (i.e., non-religious, worldly) and religious authors in pre-Christian and early church times to refer to fresh grape (non-fermented) wine (Aristotle, Metereologica, 387.b.9-13). (a) Anacreon (c. 500 B.C.) writes, "Squeeze the grape, let out the wine [ oinos]" ( Ode 5). (b) Nicander (second century B.C.) writes about squeezing grapes and refers to the juice as oinos ( Georgica, fragment 86). (c) Athenaeus (A.D. 200) writes about a man gathering grapes who "went about, and took wine [ oinos] from the field" (Athenaeus, Banquet, 1.54).

(2) The Jewish scholars who translated the OT into Greek about 200 B.C. used oinos to translate several Hebrew words for wine (see article on Wine in the Old Testament ). That is to say, the NT writers undoubtedly knew that oinos could be either fermented or unfermented juice from grapes.

(3) An examination of NT Bible passages also reveals that oinos can mean either fermented or unfermented wine. In Eph 5:18 the command, "do not get drunk on wine [ oinos]," obviously refers to alcoholic wine. But in Rev 19:15, Christ is pictured in a winepress (a flat, lowered floor where grapes would be crushed by foot to produce juice). The Greek text reads: "He treads the winepress of the wine [ oinos]"; the oinos that comes from the winepress would be fresh grape juice (see Isa 16:10, note; Jer 48:32-33, note). In Rev 6:6 oinos refers to grapes still on the vine. These passages are evidence that people in NT times understood that "wine" ( oinos) was a general word that could be used for two distinctly different grape beverages—sweet, unfermented juice or fermented, potentially intoxicating wine.

Jesus' glory revealed through wine. In his second chapter, John records that Jesus made "wine" out of water at a wedding at Cana. The wine miracle was one of Jesus' seven miraculous "signs" (Gk semeia) in John's Gospel that pointed to Jesus as being Israel's Messiah (i.e., Savior, Christ) and God's Son, "full of grace and truth" (cf. 1:14, 17). This miracle is also part of the "newness" theme that John emphasizes in his opening chapters ("new wine," 2:1-11; "new temple," 2:14-22; "new birth," 3:1-8; "new life," 4:4-26). In the person and ministry of Jesus Christ, something brand new and unprecedented was emerging in the history of God's relationship to humankind. However, the old order of Judaism (i.e., religion based on the interpretation of the Pentateuch and Jewish customs) was resisting, opposing and rejecting the "newness" that Jesus was bringing.

It is within this context of "newness" that we consider the question about the kind of wine Jesus created. Was it alcoholic or was it unfermented? Was it "new wine" or "aged wine"? As we have seen, it could have been fermented or unfermented, full strength or diluted. To find the answer, we must consider both the Biblical context of this passage and the moral position his action would probably represent. This study Bible proposes that most likely Jesus created "new wine" (pure and unfermented) rather than "aged wine" (alcoholic) for the following reasons:

(1) "New wine" fits better in the context of John's Gospel with its focus on the theme of "newness" as part of the message that Jesus brings (see above comments on 2:1-11; 2:14-22; 3:1-8; 4:4-26; cf. Mt 9:16-17; 2Co 5:17). In addition, old wineskins and old (aged) wine are associated with Judaism, not the gospel (i.e., the "good news" of Jesus Christ; see Lk 5:37-39). The highest goal of redemption (i.e., Christ's work of spiritual salvation and restoring people's relationship with God) is to make all things new (Rev 21:5).

(2) The quality of the wine Jesus made is called "choice" [Gk kalon] wine in contrast to "cheaper" (Gk elasoo) wine (Jn 2:10). According to various ancient writers, the "choice" (or "best") wine was the sweetest wine-one that people could drink freely and in large quantities without harm (i.e., wine that had not reduced its sugar to alcohol through fermentation). The "cheaper" (Gk elasoo) wine was usually alcoholic wine that had been diluted with too much water. In ancient times (unlike today), wine was not thought to improve with age because it could sour into vinegar or form undesirable sediment (the part that would settle to the bottom).

(3) The goals of the wine miracle, as Jesus' first miraculous sign, were to (1) reveal Jesus as the "creator" (Jn 2:9) and (2) reveal "his glory" and inspire his disciples to put their faith in him as God's Son (Jn 2:11; cf. 20:31). It would seem highly unlikely that Christ showed his divinity (i.e., his God-nature) as the One and Only Son of the Father (Jn 1:14) by creating gallons of intoxicating wine for people who may already have drunk too much (see note 2:10, which suggests that the people had been drinking freely). Such an act could hardly be seen as a credit to his mission as spiritual Savior (cf. Mt 1:21).

(4) Since Jesus acknowledged the OT as God's authoritative revelation, he would have supported the Biblical passages condemning drunkenness (see Pr 20:1, note) and the words such as those of Hab 2:15, "Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors, pouring it... till they are drunk" (cf. Lev 10:8-11; Nu 6:1-5; Dt 21:20; Pr 31:4-7; Isa 28:7; Am 2:8, 12; 4:1; 6:6; Ro 14:13, 21). In addition, Christ's perfect obedience to his Father (cf. 2Co 5:21; Heb 4:15; 1Pe 2:22) makes it unlikely that he would have done anything that could have compromised the strong warnings in God's Word about alcoholic wine and its harmful effects (see Pr 23:29-35, notes; see article on Wine in the Old Testament ). But turning water into fresh, sweet, unfermented harvest wine certainly could have revealed to his disciples Jesus' glory as Lord over nature (Jn 1:3, 14), Creator of all things new—and as "the Christ, the Son of God" (Jn 20:31).
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Post Da Sheik
I have several copies of the Full Life Study Bible. I’m thankful for the efforts of Donald Stamps to produce a study Bible with a Pentecostal perspective. But this is eisegesis and proof-texting at its finest. He starts out with a premise (Jesus couldn’t have possibly done what the Bible says He did), and sets out to prove it.

Another assumption is that Jesus and Mary are here with a group of people who are so intoxicated they can barely tolerate another sip of wine. Pure hyperbole. If the people were staggering and stumbling one might expect that Mary wouldn’t be asking Jesus to produce more. Furthermore, the ruler of the feast would have said “where did this heavenly grape juice come from ?”
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12/13/18 10:57 pm


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Post Drunkeness is Forbidden, Not Drinking FG Minister
I Timothy 3 says deacons shouldn't have much wine, and elders are to have none. This doesn't matter if it's non-alcoholic. Yes, the wine Jesus created could have gotten someone drunk if they had had too much. Quit trying to make the text say something it doesn't say. I don't drink alcohol and discourage it's use for a variety of other reasons, but the Bible only condemns drunkenness. I have no problem with a person having a drink if they don't continue to drunkenness. Why? Because that is the Biblical view. Acts-celerater
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12/14/18 8:36 am


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Post But you do...... spartanfan
But if someone joins the Church of God which means they are testifying before God and the church as witnesses that they will to the best of their ability live in accordance to the bylaws of the General Assembly which say unequivocally that they will abstain from drinking alcoholic beverages - then you do have a problem with them deliberately lying and going against their word, I presume, by choosing to drink some beer or a little wine (or any other alcoholic beverage). Once you choose to take membership in the church then it places you in a separate category altogether because you are not only accountable to the Scriptures but also the bylaws you voluntarily gave your pledge to uphold. Certainly you would act according to the bylaws until the time that you have championed a campaign to change them to agree with what you believe is Scriptural or you renounce your fellowship with the church - otherwise our bylaws and covenant to abide by them mean nothing and the General Assembly of the Church of God is reduced to irrelevance in the lives of the offenders. Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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12/14/18 9:38 am


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Post Re: But you do...... Dave Dorsey
spartanfan wrote:
But if someone joins the Church of God which means they are testifying before God and the church as witnesses that they will to the best of their ability live in accordance to the bylaws of the General Assembly which say unequivocally that they will abstain from drinking alcoholic beverages - then you do have a problem with them deliberately lying and going against their word, I presume, by choosing to drink some beer or a little wine (or any other alcoholic beverage). Once you choose to take membership in the church then it places you in a separate category altogether because you are not only accountable to the Scriptures but also the bylaws you voluntarily gave your pledge to uphold. Certainly you would act according to the bylaws until the time that you have championed a campaign to change them to agree with what you believe is Scriptural or you renounce your fellowship with the church - otherwise our bylaws and covenant to abide by them mean nothing and the General Assembly of the Church of God is reduced to irrelevance in the lives of the offenders.

Can we interpret your epic moving of the goalpost here as an inability on your part to "prove it was grape juice" and "[end] the discussion" having done so?
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Post Nature Boy Florida
Link wrote:
Nature Boy Florida wrote:

Jesus was strongly against fermenting bread (leaven) - why would he be good with fermenting grapes?


Really? The Jews were to abstain from leaven during the week of unleaven bread and Passover season, but otherwise, they were allowed to use leaven. Do you think Jesus only ate crackers all the time while everyone else was eating bread outside of Passover season?

Non-fermented grape juice was considered not kosher for Passover. Grape juice had yeast in it. In order to get it out, the wine had to be fully fermented and then the yeast would die. They would then slough the dead yeast off the top. It is only in the 20th century that Jews would accept a processed grape juice (through new technology) as kosher for Passover. Jesus said that the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. All whatsoever they command you observe, that observe and do....

What basis is there for thinking that Jesus would have been opposed to 'real wine.' He lived before John Wesley and early Methodist preaching against distilled liquor evolved into preaching against beer, wine, etc. He lived before the temperence movement. The religious thinking for teetotalerism that Holiness, some Baptist, and Pentecostal had against all alcohol consumption hadn't been invented yet.


You might be right.

It might be a stretch - but no more of one than many things posted on Acts. Twisted Evil

And yes - I am a tee-totaller as I believe it is a scourge on every society that gives into it - so much so that our country tried to ban it. But much like marijuana and other drugs - if it gets banned - some fools bring it in from the outside.

I would think churches would be on the forefront of fighting things that wipe folks out - but we are too afraid to take a stand against anything - not wanting to be a Pharisee or anything. But our teenage and twenty something year old young people are dying from it at a great rate.

Hard to believe that USATODAY leads a fight against it - but our churches do not.

Comparing the prohibition against smoking that the country and churches have addressed, USA TODAY says:

]
Quote:
Alcohol, which causes 88,000 deaths a year in the USA, is a similarly grave public health concern. Studies show deaths linked to alcohol are up 35 to 50 percent since 2000.


We're killing ourselves - and the church is backing off from it's previous stance. I guess I was born too late. Common sense isn't in fashion anymore.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2018/11/16/alcohol-deaths-emergency-room-increase-middle-aged-women-addiction-opioids/1593347002/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2018/11/19/alcohol-taxes-restrictions-public-health-policy-problem-drinking-blue-laws/1729501002/
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Post Re: But you do...... UncleJD
[quote="spartanfan"]But if someone joins the Church of God .../quote]

Only in the western hemisphere from what I understand
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