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 Go out of Business |
AdamJ |
| As a young man I’m concerned. Was setting with several pastors and the serious conversation went like this. Was this Bishop sent here to close us down. They named several ministers that has left and others that are considering it, tons of properties sold and now churches splitting. They said not one pastor has received an In state move unless it was a move down or a move out. Is it even possible that the executive leadership would want to punish an entire state? Or are they just not willing to recognize the effect of their appointments. Should we all just buy a (Going out of Business) sign? We know if the Church of God closes in our state the Church will still continue. |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 65
12/6/18 11:05 am
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Cojak |
I can't imagine the idea of sending someone to a state to shut it down, makes no sense. I have felt at times over the years that 'personal grudges' appeared to be the reason a church was shut down and sold or a pastor was sent to a church that was aging out as a spiteful move.
Anything is possible but I cannot see it on a wholesale basis. Must be a small state. you are speaking of. 
By the way, welcome aboard...... 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24275
12/6/18 11:51 pm
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Waambulance Man |
Sure sounds familiar.  |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 94
12/7/18 8:46 am
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| Yes |
cogcia |
| Yes you are not the first person to ask such a question. I have been asking the same thing lately. Either it is a plan or total lack of oversight. Not sure which is worse. I’ve learned you sure better not raise a question inside the state or you are out. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 122
12/7/18 4:01 pm
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Waambulance Man |
| That's for certain. |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 94
12/7/18 9:51 pm
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| Re: Go out of Business |
roughridercog |
| AdamJ wrote: | | As a young man I’m concerned. Was setting with several pastors and the serious conversation went like this. Was this Bishop sent here to close us down. They named several ministers that has left and others that are considering it, tons of properties sold and now churches splitting. They said not one pastor has received an In state move unless it was a move down or a move out. Is it even possible that the executive leadership would want to punish an entire state? Or are they just not willing to recognize the effect of their appointments. Should we all just buy a (Going out of Business) sign? We know if the Church of God closes in our state the Church will still continue. |
I don't know you or your state, but I have to ask.
What would you do if you were the AB and would the situation be any better?
Just asking a tough question.
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
12/8/18 4:43 pm
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AdamJ |
[img]
Not old enough to be an AB, but I would not treat Pastors the same way as we treat real estate. Like they are disposable assets. Here neither Property, Churches or Ministers have any value if they stand in the way of a personal agenda. It does bother me that Pastors are afraid to speak up knowing they would be the next casualty of war . [/img] |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 65
12/8/18 7:51 pm
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sheepdogandy |
Centralized government, ya gotta love it!
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Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7298
12/9/18 9:32 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| AdamJ wrote: | [img]
Not old enough to be an AB, but I would not treat Pastors the same way as we treat real estate. Like they are disposable assets. Here neither Property, Churches or Ministers have any value if they stand in the way of a personal agenda. It does bother me that Pastors are afraid to speak up knowing they would be the next casualty of war . [/img] |
While it is true that ABs can just about do what they want, if a local church can’t pay its bills and keep the doors open, it falls on the AB as the one who has to deal with it as ‘a real estate asset.’ I would bet money, if I were a gambler, that an AB would not just sell a local church property if it could have stayed open and paying its bills. It is not their goal to close churches. The ABs I’ve known have done all they could to keep struggling churches open, and always took it personally if they failed.
I have seen ABs actually take an associate pastor from one church (that needed him) and place him as lead pastor in a dying church situation that only ended up prolonging the last gasp of the lifeless church for a year and a half and greatly discouraging the hapless associate who was all too eager at first to go there. This the AB did against the reasoned and passionate pleading of the pastor whom the AB took the associate from.
In my view, ABs sometimes value dying churches far too highly. If they are not bearing fruit, haven’t borne fruit for years, and can’t pay their bills, I say close them down, sell the property and invest in a new church plant somewhere in the state. Don’t send an overzealous preacher into a no-win situation. Invest Kingdom funds wisely. The church is not the building anyway. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
12/9/18 9:48 am
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roughridercog |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | AdamJ wrote: | [img]
Not old enough to be an AB, but I would not treat Pastors the same way as we treat real estate. Like they are disposable assets. Here neither Property, Churches or Ministers have any value if they stand in the way of a personal agenda. It does bother me that Pastors are afraid to speak up knowing they would be the next casualty of war . [/img] |
While it is true that ABs can just about do what they want, if a local church can’t pay its bills and keep the doors open, it falls on the AB as the one who has to deal with it as ‘a real estate asset.’ I would bet money, if I were a gambler, that an AB would not just sell a local church property if it could have stayed open and paying its bills. It is not their goal to close churches. The ABs I’ve known have done all they could to keep struggling churches open, and always took it personally if they failed.
I have seen ABs actually take an associate pastor from one church (that needed him) and place him as lead pastor in a dying church situation that only ended up prolonging the last gasp of the lifeless church for a year and a half and greatly discouraging the hapless associate who was all too eager at first to go there. This the AB did against the reasoned and passionate pleading of the pastor whom the AB took the associate from.
In my view, ABs sometimes value dying churches far too highly. If they are not bearing fruit, haven’t borne fruit for years, and can’t pay their bills, I say close them down, sell the property and invest in a new church plant somewhere in the state. Don’t send an overzealous preacher into a no-win situation. Invest Kingdom funds wisely. The church is not the building anyway. |
This sounds good, but in many areas, the money isn't used to create new works but instead keep state offices afloat, hence it is called church cannibalization.
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
12/9/18 4:57 pm
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cogcia |
Things happen different when a state is in financial trouble. In our State We have seen churches yet with all bills paid, all reports paid and money in the bank closed. Not because and members were upset, but because they were seen as an asset that the state wanted. There was no attempt to turn the church around.
The assets should be used for the field, but that is not the perception. We need to sell properties to keep the office open. Is it ok to remove pastors if you have not offered them resources and training? You may say we are failures, but does it say more about the coaching system? My wife and children should be looked at as more than a disposable assess. Like another pastor told me the other day, even if I failed I was trying and I deserved being treated in a Christian manor. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 122
12/9/18 5:06 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| roughridercog wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | AdamJ wrote: | [img]
Not old enough to be an AB, but I would not treat Pastors the same way as we treat real estate. Like they are disposable assets. Here neither Property, Churches or Ministers have any value if they stand in the way of a personal agenda. It does bother me that Pastors are afraid to speak up knowing they would be the next casualty of war . [/img] |
While it is true that ABs can just about do what they want, if a local church can’t pay its bills and keep the doors open, it falls on the AB as the one who has to deal with it as ‘a real estate asset.’ I would bet money, if I were a gambler, that an AB would not just sell a local church property if it could have stayed open and paying its bills. It is not their goal to close churches. The ABs I’ve known have done all they could to keep struggling churches open, and always took it personally if they failed.
I have seen ABs actually take an associate pastor from one church (that needed him) and place him as lead pastor in a dying church situation that only ended up prolonging the last gasp of the lifeless church for a year and a half and greatly discouraging the hapless associate who was all too eager at first to go there. This the AB did against the reasoned and passionate pleading of the pastor whom the AB took the associate from.
In my view, ABs sometimes value dying churches far too highly. If they are not bearing fruit, haven’t borne fruit for years, and can’t pay their bills, I say close them down, sell the property and invest in a new church plant somewhere in the state. Don’t send an overzealous preacher into a no-win situation. Invest Kingdom funds wisely. The church is not the building anyway. |
This sounds good, but in many areas, the money isn't used to create new works but instead keep state offices afloat, hence it is called church cannibalization. |
Not exactly sure what you mean by “This sounds good...†I am sharing my perspective as a local pastor, and am not trying to spin anything at all.
From what I know, which is admittedly not even close to everything, the Minutes stipulate that proceeds from the sale of church properties must be reinvested in new church plants or church assistance:
“The proceeds from the sale of property of disbanded churches, less expenses incurred by the state/ regional offices for that particular church, shall be disbursed exclusively for church assistance and church planting (73rd A., 2010).â€
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 12/9/18 7:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
12/9/18 7:13 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| cogcia wrote: | Things happen different when a state is in financial trouble. In our State We have seen churches yet with all bills paid, all reports paid and money in the bank closed. Not because and members were upset, but because they were seen as an asset that the state wanted. There was no attempt to turn the church around.
The assets should be used for the field, but that is not the perception. We need to sell properties to keep the office open. Is it ok to remove pastors if you have not offered them resources and training? You may say we are failures, but does it say more about the coaching system? My wife and children should be looked at as more than a disposable assess. Like another pastor told me the other day, even if I failed I was trying and I deserved being treated in a Christian manor. |
I am sorry to hear that. I know from experience that ABs have the ability to treat people poorly. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
12/9/18 7:14 pm
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Waambulance Man |
| Quote: | From what I know, which is admittedly not even close to everything, the Minutes stipulate that proceeds from the sale of church properties must be reinvested in new church plants or church assistance:
“The proceeds from the sale of property of disbanded churches, less expenses incurred by the state/ regional offices for that particular church, shall be disbursed exclusively for church assistance and church planting (73rd A., 2010).†|
I can tell you with absolute certainty that the Minutes are not being followed as this is not happening. Someone said "cannibalizing" above. That's a very good description that is happening in one mid-west state, which I'm pretty sure is the one being spoken about in this post. |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 94
12/9/18 9:21 pm
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roughridercog |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | roughridercog wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | AdamJ wrote: | [img]
Not old enough to be an AB, but I would not treat Pastors the same way as we treat real estate. Like they are disposable assets. Here neither Property, Churches or Ministers have any value if they stand in the way of a personal agenda. It does bother me that Pastors are afraid to speak up knowing they would be the next casualty of war . [/img] |
While it is true that ABs can just about do what they want, if a local church can’t pay its bills and keep the doors open, it falls on the AB as the one who has to deal with it as ‘a real estate asset.’ I would bet money, if I were a gambler, that an AB would not just sell a local church property if it could have stayed open and paying its bills. It is not their goal to close churches. The ABs I’ve known have done all they could to keep struggling churches open, and always took it personally if they failed.
I have seen ABs actually take an associate pastor from one church (that needed him) and place him as lead pastor in a dying church situation that only ended up prolonging the last gasp of the lifeless church for a year and a half and greatly discouraging the hapless associate who was all too eager at first to go there. This the AB did against the reasoned and passionate pleading of the pastor whom the AB took the associate from.
In my view, ABs sometimes value dying churches far too highly. If they are not bearing fruit, haven’t borne fruit for years, and can’t pay their bills, I say close them down, sell the property and invest in a new church plant somewhere in the state. Don’t send an overzealous preacher into a no-win situation. Invest Kingdom funds wisely. The church is not the building anyway. |
This sounds good, but in many areas, the money isn't used to create new works but instead keep state offices afloat, hence it is called church cannibalization. |
Not exactly sure what you mean by “This sounds good...†I am sharing my perspective as a local pastor, and am not trying to spin anything at all.
From what I know, which is admittedly not even close to everything, the Minutes stipulate that proceeds from the sale of church properties must be reinvested in new church plants or church assistance:
“The proceeds from the sale of property of disbanded churches, less expenses incurred by the state/ regional offices for that particular church, shall be disbursed exclusively for church assistance and church planting (73rd A., 2010).†|
b
Clarification, when I said "this sounds good," I was speaking to the idea that if a church is sold, any monies realized from the sale is used in the field to create new fields works or maybe even get another church out of debt. But we know that as good and rational as this idea sounds, it's not what happens in reality. It often goes to keep state offices afloat.
So let's talk solution. What would you do if you were the AB in a state where that has been the norm? Sell state offices for something much smaller? Sell state parson ages for smaller and older homes? Rent rather than own offices? Relocate offices to any area of the state where the price of real estate isn't so high?
Just spitballing here.
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
12/10/18 8:09 am
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| Selling churches |
4thgeneration |
First let me clarify for those that don't know who I am, that I'm NOT, neither have I ever been a state overseer. I have, however, served on the state council, and as a District Overseer for a number of years.
In my experience and observation, some churches need to be shut down and the properties sold. Others need to be shut down for a few months with the intent to relaunch at a later date.
My explanation for my views: When a church reaches a place of decline to the point that it can no longer function as a church, it should be shut down. That can include insufficient giving to pay the bills, or the inability of leadership to find someone willing to pastor the church. I've seen this too many times. People in the church who sit by and do little to nothing to keep the church going, let along generate any growth. Then they criticize leadership who can't find a pastor for the church, or who can't take the church on to pay their bills. I think we have to accept that churches can and at times do reach the end of their functionality as a ministry presence in the community.
What's next? That question brings to light the process of how to handle those situations. Some churches can be closed for a season and reopened in a relaunch, often under the guidance of a larger church. Perhaps they are in a community that warrants that approach due to the lack of other COG's in the area, or due to the population and potential found in the community. A fresh face, name, vision, approach, and ministry can, at times, step into old facilities and rebirth an effective ministry. At other times the equations add up to the need to just close down. Perhaps the community is in decline, or there are plenty of other viable options of churches and ministries that are effectively ministering into said community. It is never cut and dry, and never an easy process or decision.
What about the money? I agree, that we should be abiding by our minutes and using that money to plant churches, support churches or revitalize churches. Too often that is not the case, which points to accountability issues in our movement. Selling properties to pay the bills is a dead end street. At some point the bleeding has to be stopped if we want to grow ministry in our states/regions.
Just my thoughts on the topic. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1598
12/10/18 12:14 pm
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cogcia |
| Any state office can create an accounting system that show all Process from liquidated properties and how those Monies are spent. It is easy to be transparent with these monies. It is also easy to have an accounting system that Mingle these monies in a way that makes it impossible to know how they were spent. It is easy if you want it to be easy. We always did it with youth funds, ladies ministry fund etc. From talking to several state councilmen in 3 different states and was shocked at how difficult it was to trace these monies in some of them. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 122
12/10/18 2:08 pm
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| Hmmm want to really inject some drastic ideas? |
roughridercog |
If a church can't pay a pastor a reasonable living wage, close it, consolidate with another Church of God if possible, and use any money to pay off one of the churches that might need this money to pay a reasonable salary.
Whoooo boy, that would set some states on their ear.
What would all of these pastors without churches do?
Just tossing out wild ideas. 
_________________
Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
12/10/18 2:15 pm
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AdamJ |
| No one is thinking that churches don’t die and should not be closed. The issue is how do we insure the assets go back into church planting or revitalization? We don’t want to Go out of Business as a denomination even in smaller states. |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 65
12/10/18 9:45 pm
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Dow Moses |
You can only go out of business if it is a business. Lol The Church will never go Out of business. A family like the COG is in danger of dying when you have less births than you do funerals. The solution is to be fruitful and multiply. Healthy births (church planting) is the answer and that comes through health life giving churches. You have to feed babies to keep them healthy. If you don’t feed the babies they die. I look at closing churches like grandparents that puts the grandkids in the WILL. It should go to making the family healthier. The problem with poor estate planning is tons can be lost in legal and administration fees. Especially if you change lawyers every couple years.
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DOW MOSES |
Friendly Face
Posts: 100
12/10/18 10:44 pm
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