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If I believe that Jesus is one of many ways to God, but I choose to believe in Him, can I be saved?

 
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Post If I believe that Jesus is one of many ways to God, but I choose to believe in Him, can I be saved? Dave Dorsey
This question is a follow-up to the conversation in the thread about Jakes, especially Aaron's post.

Question is in the subject. If I were to believe that Jesus is the only Son of God, and that He died for my sins and was raised for my justification, but also affirm that God could forgive my sins by another means if He chose and grant me eternal life, is it possible for me to be a true believer?

Or to put it another way: When does one's understanding of the gospel become incorrect enough that they cannot be said to believe the true gospel, and therefore cannot be true believers and true children of God?

What level of understanding of the gospel is required in order to experience genuine conversion?

And I suppose as a distant follow-up, does Sabellianism imply an understanding of the Godhead that would preclude genuine conversion, as the church has historically affirmed?
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10/15/18 7:56 pm


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Post Cojak
I ain't jumping in all the way on this, But the scripture says: .....Who so ever believes in him shall be saved.

NOW to:
What level of understanding of the gospel is required in order to experience genuine conversion?

We all know that the above is the foundation of being saved... For many years that was accepted. BUT now it seems more and more 'additional' things are required.

SO, if one thinks there are other ways, but picks Jesus seriously, then in my opinion the person will be saved. A full understanding of all the GOSPEL is not required or me and many of the early saints might not make it.

I hope I don't regret trying to say what I think! Embarassed
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10/15/18 8:44 pm


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Post You might want to restate your response cojak Dunamis007
John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Romans 10:10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved

Believe in your heart, not pick one out of many gods. Thats like throwing a dart at a board of choices and luckily hitting the bullseye, Jesus.


Last edited by Dunamis007 on 10/16/18 1:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post Resident Skeptic
The gospel and salvation are built upon the fact that God exalted his Son and made him Lord. Embracing that excludes the possibility of believing there are many ways to God and salvation. It's all about Christ.

As far as Sabellianism is concerned, how can those who embrace this teaching really affirm there was a genuine distinction between Father and Son? On that note, how can Trinitarians truthfully affirm the same?


All in all, I don't think embracing imperfect doctrine on the godhead unsaves anyone. For example, though trinitarianism sometimes resembles tritheism, most trinitarians do not believe in their heart there are three Gods.
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10/16/18 5:31 am


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Post Eddie Robbins
I am a believer in John 3:16. Period. Acts-pert Poster
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10/16/18 7:25 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
Eddie Robbins wrote:
I am a believer in John 3:16. Period.

If I understand Jesus as being a human (but completely perfect) son/creation of God, and believe on him, will I have eternal life?
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10/16/18 7:36 am


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Post Resident Skeptic
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Eddie Robbins wrote:
I am a believer in John 3:16. Period.

If I understand Jesus as being a human (but completely perfect) son/creation of God, and believe on him, will I have eternal life?


He gives eternal life through regeneration of the Holy Spirit as described in John 4....


Quote:
The water that I shall give him shall be IN him, a well of water springing up unto everlasting life.



As for your question, I find it interesting that in Acts the Apostles preached solely about "Jesus of NAZARETH", the glorified HUMAN Son of God. Only his earthly origins were stressed, and his exaltation. Much to the dismay of Oneness and Trinitarian adherents, there is no mention of him being God the Son come down from Heaven or the human manifestation of the Father. That is not to say he is neither one of these, but as far as salvation is concerned, the Apostles stressed only his human origins and his glorification in Acts. Certainly in the epistles and Revelation, we get a deeper understanding of his deity. I challenge anyone to prove me wrong.
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10/16/18 7:59 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
Resident Skeptic wrote:
As for your question, I find it interesting that in Acts the Apostles preached solely about "Jesus of NAZARETH", the glorified HUMAN Son of God. Only his earthly origins were stressed, and his exaltation. Much to the dismay of Oneness and Trinitarian adherents, there is no mention of him being God the Son come down from Heaven or the human manifestation of the Father. That is not to say he is neither one of these, but as far as salvation is concerned, the Apostles stressed only his human origins and his glorification in Acts. Certainly in the epistles and Revelation, we get a deeper understanding of his deity. I challenge anyone to prove me wrong.

...yikes. As an immediate proof text rebuttal, Acts 20:28, in which the Ephesian elders are exhorted to shepherd the church of God "which He purchased with His own blood".

Also would note that the epistles were mostly written during the time that the Acts narrative was occurring, so it's not correct to imply that the Acts narrative occurred, completed, and then the epistles were written to further clarify Jesus' deity (if that's what you were doing, pardon me if you weren't).

And lastly would note that while Luke's central point in Acts is to declare the risen Jesus who is coming as God's king to judge all the earth, it is an argument from silence to suggest that the apostles did not declare (or rarely declared) Jesus' deity while ministering in the events that Luke records.
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10/16/18 8:18 am


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Post Resident Skeptic
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Resident Skeptic wrote:
As for your question, I find it interesting that in Acts the Apostles preached solely about "Jesus of NAZARETH", the glorified HUMAN Son of God. Only his earthly origins were stressed, and his exaltation. Much to the dismay of Oneness and Trinitarian adherents, there is no mention of him being God the Son come down from Heaven or the human manifestation of the Father. That is not to say he is neither one of these, but as far as salvation is concerned, the Apostles stressed only his human origins and his glorification in Acts. Certainly in the epistles and Revelation, we get a deeper understanding of his deity. I challenge anyone to prove me wrong.

...yikes. As an immediate proof text rebuttal, Acts 20:28, in which the Ephesian elders are exhorted to shepherd the church of God "which He purchased with His own blood".

Who were the Apostles addressing in this verse?

Also would note that the epistles were mostly written during the time that the Acts narrative was occurring, so it's not correct to imply that the Acts narrative occurred, completed, and then the epistles were written to further clarify Jesus' deity (if that's what you were doing, pardon me if you weren't).

And lastly would note that while Luke's central point in Acts is to declare the risen Jesus who is coming as God's king to judge all the earth, it is an argument from silence to suggest that the apostles did not declare (or rarely declared) Jesus' deity while ministering in the events that Luke records.

Concerning the requirements for salvation, I am not arguing from silence. There simply is not one example of the Apostles requiring a belief in "God the Son" for someone to be saved. They preached a belief in the lordship of Jesus of Nazareth to be saved. There is no silence at all on that one.



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10/16/18 8:28 am


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Post Dave... Aaron Scott
Re: If I believe that Jesus is one of many ways to God, but I choose to believe in Him, can I be saved?

Dave Dorsey wrote:
This question is a follow-up to the conversation in the thread about Jakes, especially Aaron's post.

Question is in the subject. If I were to believe that Jesus is the only Son of God, and that He died for my sins and was raised for my justification, but also affirm that God could forgive my sins by another means if He chose and grant me eternal life, is it possible for me to be a true believer?


Dave, in short, YES. While you and I find this repugnant, such a person would be an ignorant believer and would surely, in time, understand that if there were other ways to God, Jesus' sacrifice would not have been necessary, would have been the ultimate indictment against God for making His Son be unnecessarily tortured to death.

There can be a lot of error that a person brings to the altar. Being saved doesn't mean you know everything you should know.

To hold that such a person couldn't be saved would be just another way of stating that "if you don't believe certain doctrinal positions, you cannot be saved." And if we start there, where do we stop? Is it OK to not have any knowledge of the trinity, yet be saved? What about the Virgin Birth?

I would just add that while we SHOULD believe such things, a new Christian may be a million miles removed from such truths. Such Christians would need to be made aware of the greater truths. But I do not think they are required for getting saved.


















Or to put it another way: When does one's understanding of the gospel become incorrect enough that they cannot be said to believe the true gospel, and therefore cannot be true believers and true children of God?

What level of understanding of the gospel is required in order to experience genuine conversion?

And I suppose as a distant follow-up, does Sabellianism imply an understanding of the Godhead that would preclude genuine conversion, as the church has historically affirmed?
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10/16/18 9:44 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
Sorry guys. While I certainly agree that perfect (or even semi-perfect) theology is not a requirement of salvation, I don't see how you can have genuine belief and faith in a God and a gospel that you have totally and completely misunderstood.

A new believer who experiences genuine conversion and regeneration may indeed not know any of those things, but will quickly discover them as the Spirit of Christ leads him or her.

But I do not see how a so-called believer who continues to affirm any of those things could possibly be considered to have experienced genuine conversion.
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10/16/18 9:48 am


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Post Resident Skeptic
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Sorry guys. While I certainly agree that perfect (or even semi-perfect) theology is not a requirement of salvation, I don't see how you can have genuine belief and faith in a God and a gospel that you have totally and completely misunderstood.

A new believer who experiences genuine conversion and regeneration may indeed not know any of those things, but will quickly discover them as the Spirit of Christ leads him or her.

But I do not see how a so-called believer who continues to affirm any of those things could possibly be considered to have experienced genuine conversion.


Overall, I agree. And it seems that groups who stress grace through faith salvation inevitably will guide disciples into knowledge of Christ's deity, even if we might have different ideas about God's unique existence as Father, Son and Spirit. Thus, we see the elders in Acts 20:28 having gained an understanding that "God" purchased the church "with HIS own blood".
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10/16/18 9:59 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
That's kind of my point though -- a genuine believer doesn't need to be discipled into learning that Christ is divine. He doesn't need to become an elder before it's clear to him. No one who has experienced genuine regeneration needs a class on the divinity of Christ. These are things that are revealed by the Spirit, through the Word, and are just recognized and known by those who have experienced genuine conversion and have been born of the Spirit.

They know His voice and will not follow a stranger's voice.
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10/16/18 10:29 am


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Post Resident Skeptic
Dave Dorsey wrote:
That's kind of my point though -- a genuine believer doesn't need to be discipled into learning that Christ is divine. He doesn't need to become an elder before it's clear to him. No one who has experienced genuine regeneration needs a class on the divinity of Christ. These are things that are revealed by the Spirit, through the Word, and are just recognized and known by those who have experienced genuine conversion and have been born of the Spirit.

They know His voice and will not follow a stranger's voice.


I cannot agree with this, and from personal experience discipling new Christians. Ninety-nine percent of those repenting in an altar are looking to Jesus as the Son of God, not God himself. Certainly the illumination of the Holy Spirit will lead them into more truth as they grow in grace and in "the knowledge of Him". Just to clarify, one does not need to become an elder to see these truths. But they need to have seen these truths before they become an elder, certainly.
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10/16/18 11:26 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
Resident Skeptic wrote:
I cannot agree with this, and from personal experience discipling new Christians. Ninety-nine percent of those repenting in an altar are looking to Jesus as the Son of God, not God himself. Certainly the illumination of the Holy Spirit will lead them into more truth as they grow in grace and in "the knowledge of Him". Just to clarify, one does not need to become an elder to see these truths. But they need to have seen these truths before they become an elder, certainly.

I've been very careful in this thread to refer to regeneration, rather than coming to an altar. Untold multitudes walk to an altar and say a prayer and walk away unregenerate.

Romans 10... how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? If you have not heard that Christ is God the Son, you cannot believe in Him for salvation.
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10/16/18 12:50 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Resident Skeptic wrote:
I cannot agree with this, and from personal experience discipling new Christians. Ninety-nine percent of those repenting in an altar are looking to Jesus as the Son of God, not God himself. Certainly the illumination of the Holy Spirit will lead them into more truth as they grow in grace and in "the knowledge of Him". Just to clarify, one does not need to become an elder to see these truths. But they need to have seen these truths before they become an elder, certainly.

I've been very careful in this thread to refer to regeneration, rather than coming to an altar. Untold multitudes walk to an altar and say a prayer and walk away unregenerate.

Romans 10... how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? If you have not heard that Christ is God the Son, you cannot believe in Him for salvation.


I understand. However, I've never seen someone receiving a revelation of the deity of Christ or the trinity simply by being regenerated. Regeneration is about correcting the sin nature so that we can begin receiving revelation over time, IMO.
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10/16/18 12:53 pm


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Post UncleJD
Ok, I'm not a theologian, but to me this simply comes down to the fact that to ACTUALLY believe in Jesus, you must believe what He said about himself. Someone posted the scriptures above so I don't have to do it again here, but my thought is that Jesus didn't leave room for a belief in any other way to God, period. So in my simple mind, it is simply not possible to believe in Christ without believing what he said. Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
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10/18/18 8:32 am


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Post Da Sheik
Eddie Robbins wrote:
I am a believer in John 3:16. Period.


And even this verse clearly teaches that the Father and the Son are separate entities. Every pseudo-Christian cult errs on either the humanity or deity of Christ. So I do believe it's crucial that we believe in the right Jesus. Paul warned the Galatians about those who preach another gospel and he warned the Corinthians against those who preach "another" Jesus.

I can take you step by step through the Prologue in John 1 in the original language and prove the deity of Christ and the Father. Does the new believer need to have this type of understanding? Probably not. But I think the Deity of Christ is essential to believing the true Gospel and the True Jesus.
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10/19/18 12:06 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
Da Sheik wrote:
Eddie Robbins wrote:
I am a believer in John 3:16. Period.


And even this verse clearly teaches that the Father and the Son are separate entities.

JW's teach they are seperate entities, as do Mormons. Biblically, the separation between Father and Son are just that, a Father who is a deity with a human Son, yet existing in an ontological union. What Christ accomplished on this earth he did so acting as if though he was not ontologically one with his Father. Where I see allot of trinitarians erring is making the ontological union between three persons who are each deity. By "persons" in this context, I mean self-aware entities or beings. That is tritheism no matter how you slice it. That is not the God of the Old Testament Jews. That is not "God" at all, but "Gods". The doctrine of eternal sonship has done more to promote this non-biblical view than anything. The Word was the image of the invisible Father prior to the incarnation. The Word tabernacled among us in the person of the Son of God, his male human offspring. Sonship had a beginning.


Every pseudo-Christian cult errs on either the humanity or deity of Christ. So I do believe it's crucial that we believe in the right Jesus. Paul warned the Galatians about those who preach another gospel and he warned the Corinthians against those who preach "another" Jesus.

With so many varying versions of the trinity (and my belief system fits within the tolerances of some of those "versions"), who gets to decide who is an authentic trinitarian?

I can take you step by step through the Prologue in John 1 in the original language and prove the deity of Christ and the Father. Does the new believer need to have this type of understanding? Probably not. But I think the Deity of Christ is essential to believing the true Gospel and the True Jesus.

There is no question that the deity of the Word is proven through John 1. What is debated is in what way the Word and the Father were distinct. It is obvious that the "Father" refers to God and not just some "person" with that designation. Thus the Word was a way the Father (God) expressed himself. If one insists on making the Word a pre-incarnate Son, they have two deities.



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10/19/18 12:52 pm


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