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 Hypothetical About the General Overseer |
FG Minister |
Let's suppose that in the next election for GO, a man is elected who has a very strong and straightforward agenda for the COG. He starts to work immediately and after a year, 250 new churches are planted just in the US and another 1000 internationally. In that year a great revival breaks out and 25,000 people are saved around the world in COG congregations. In that same year 1200 ministers answer the call to preach and are credentialed in the COG. This year has been one of the most prosperous in COG history.
There is only one problem. The GO is an authoritarian. He is abusive to his staff, dismissive of former GO's, doesn't solicit or adhere to advice from other spiritual leaders. His family life is suspect. He talks down to people and threatens anyone who challenges his authority as GO. Many people have tried to talk with him about his behavior, but there is no change and he is not going to change. Reform is not going to occur.
Results are good, but the GO's character is horrible. Since the results are outstanding and most members of the COG are happy, do you currently support and would you vote to re-elect this flawed GO? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 875
6/26/18 8:27 am
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Dave Dorsey |
This thread is going to go well, I can sense it now. 
I would not under any circumstances want to vote to re-elect said GO, although if his opponent wanted the COG to support on-demand abortion and other things like that, I might mourn the obvious judgment of God that was falling on the COG and vote for him anyway. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
6/26/18 9:00 am
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MoonWalkingWithJesus |
| I wish we would start having more open elections for GO. Like 2 candidates. But if that happens the campmeeting circuit would get awkward real quick. Plus the system like to anoint who is next. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 141
6/26/18 9:53 am
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| Re: Hypothetical About the General Overseer |
Nature Boy Florida |
| FG Minister wrote: | Let's suppose that in the next election for GO, a man is elected who has a very strong and straightforward agenda for the COG. He starts to work immediately and after a year, 250 new churches are planted just in the US and another 1000 internationally. In that year a great revival breaks out and 25,000 people are saved around the world in COG congregations. In that same year 1200 ministers answer the call to preach and are credentialed in the COG. This year has been one of the most prosperous in COG history.
There is only one problem. The GO is an authoritarian. He is abusive to his staff, dismissive of former GO's, doesn't solicit or adhere to advice from other spiritual leaders. His family life is suspect. He talks down to people and threatens anyone who challenges his authority as GO. Many people have tried to talk with him about his behavior, but there is no change and he is not going to change. Reform is not going to occur.
Results are good, but the GO's character is horrible. Since the results are outstanding and most members of the COG are happy, do you currently support and would you vote to re-elect this flawed GO? |
It won't happen like that.
God would remove him or not allow a guy like that to get elected to our church leadership.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16621
6/26/18 11:05 am
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| Re: Hypothetical About the General Overseer |
Hill-billy |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: |
It won't happen like that.
God would remove him or not allow a guy like that to get elected to our church leadership. |
So insuring son in law is YD in Michigan with little experience isn’t enough of a reason. The denomination isn’t a piggybank. No matter where you “tithed†in the past to make it happen.
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“Well, I'm the General Overseer, I can do whatever I want..." Alabama campmeeting 2018 |
Member
Posts: 27
6/26/18 11:16 am
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| The BIG if... |
4thgeneration |
IF.... this is a veiled attempt to point to the flaws of our president, I only remind you that his office is not that of a spiritual leader. We don't vote for a national pastor, but a national leader.
If... this isn't a veiled attempt to compare apples to oranges, and is, in fact, a sincere hypothetical about a General Overseer, then no, I wouldn't vote to re-elect a spiritual leader with proven character flaws.
Key word... "spiritual" leader. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1602
6/26/18 12:57 pm
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| Re: The BIG if... |
Cojak |
| 4thgeneration wrote: | IF.... this is a veiled attempt to point to the flaws of our president, I only remind you that his office is not that of a spiritual leader. We don't vote for a national pastor, but a national leader.
If... this isn't a veiled attempt to compare apples to oranges, and is, in fact, a sincere hypothetical about a General Overseer, then no, I wouldn't vote to re-elect a spiritual leader with proven character flaws.
Key word... "spiritual" leader. |
Pretty well my thoughts....
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http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24278
6/26/18 8:41 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
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| My Thesis is About Trump, Of Course |
FG Minister |
I wanted to see if behavior qualifications are different for a "born-again" President than a born-again preacher. I have been told repeatedly that Mr. Trump has accepted Christ (as per Franklin Graham, Pastor Jeffers, Pat Robertson, Paula White, etc. etc). Of course I knew the argument would be made that we elect a president, not a pastor, and while that is certainly true, I thought ALL born-again people were held to certain standards of conduct. Please don't tell me that Mr. Trump is a baby Christian so we have to excuse a lot of what he does. That dog won't hunt. He's a 72-year old man and knows what behaviors are acceptable and which are not.
You have all agreed with me that the errant behavior of a COG GO is abhorrent and you would not re-elect him, but you give a wink and a nod to the same behavior in our born-again president. When strictly examining behavior and nothing else, I just thought ALL born-again people had the same standards. I guess I am wrong.
Please help me understand -- are there any other positions where born-again people don't have to correct their sinful behavior, or is it just results-achieving presidents? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 875
6/27/18 8:54 am
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FLRon |
As I read the Bible I don't see where anyone gets a free pass to continue living their life in the same manner as before conversion. I expect to see evidence of the fruits of the Spirit whether the person is a President or a ditch digger. A new creation is just that, a NEW creation. Old things are passed away, giving way to the new.
If Mr. Trump is indeed a baby Christian, should we not pray for him in the same manner as you would a new believer in your church? Only more?
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“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
Voddie Baucham |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 775
6/27/18 9:27 am
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| Let's call a spade a spade... |
diakoneo |
Question: How do we know if Trump is a Christian?
Answer: If he follows Christ and tries to emulate Christ
Notice I didn't say if he prayed a prayer for salvation or that some one of note in Christendom said he was saved.
Question: I thought this thread was about the Church of God AB??
Answer: Not really 
Reality: one day we will stand before the one who saved us and we will be judged by him. We have all failed and come short of His glory. When we stand before Him, we won't have any excuses. He sees the heart and knows the motives. Everything we have done in the name of Christ will be scrutinized. It is THEN not about heaven or hell, but rather our ETERNAL reward.
I have been guilty of judging others motives. Condemning them without TRULY knowing. Trump has done some things that are obviously un-Christian and for believers to make excuses for it is foolish. We should call it what it is.
Jimmy Carter was a Sunday School teacher, who became president. Like his policies or not, I think he tried to do what was right. But I am reminded that he granted an interview to Playboy magazine. This was a very grievous thing because it pulled this pornographic magazine into a positive light. As I recall he was chastised in religious circles for doing it. That is okay.
I think as Christians we should recognize bad behavior and chastise a person when we see it. Not excuse it, nor cover it up. Let the emperor know he is naked.  That is not the same thing as judging as Christ spoke about in Matthew 6. He was talking about determining someones motives without knowing them and passing the sentence as a judge would without knowing ALL of the facts. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
6/27/18 9:41 am
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philunderwood |
| Quote: | It won't happen like that.
God would remove him or not allow a guy like that to get elected to our church leadership. |
But pastors are another subject altogether. There are autocratic, manipulative and ego-centric pastors across the landscape.
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Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3954
6/27/18 10:29 am
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| Re: My Thesis is About Trump, Of Course |
skinnybishop |
| FG Minister wrote: | I wanted to see if behavior qualifications are different for a "born-again" President than a born-again preacher. I have been told repeatedly that Mr. Trump has accepted Christ (as per Franklin Graham, Pastor Jeffers, Pat Robertson, Paula White, etc. etc). Of course I knew the argument would be made that we elect a president, not a pastor, and while that is certainly true, I thought ALL born-again people were held to certain standards of conduct. Please don't tell me that Mr. Trump is a baby Christian so we have to excuse a lot of what he does. That dog won't hunt. He's a 72-year old man and knows what behaviors are acceptable and which are not.
You have all agreed with me that the errant behavior of a COG GO is abhorrent and you would not re-elect him, but you give a wink and a nod to the same behavior in our born-again president. When strictly examining behavior and nothing else, I just thought ALL born-again people had the same standards. I guess I am wrong.
Please help me understand -- are there any other positions where born-again people don't have to correct their sinful behavior, or is it just results-achieving presidents? |
This is a strange post.
You are upset....Because Paula and Franklin say Trump is a Christian....But people don't judge Trump, like they would a COG General Overseer.
As we say in the country...."Do what?"
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Eddie Wiggins |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1055
6/27/18 10:30 am
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| The difference... |
Aaron Scott |
We might tolerate some immature and problematic behavior from a new Christian. We should not tolerate it in men who are the spiritual leaders of others.
Trump is no one's spiritual leader (he wouldn't even be considered saved in most of our churches, but that is God's call, not mine).
The GO IS the spiritual leader. He not only should be above reproach, he MUST be above reproach. That doesn't mean he is perfect. It simply means that he is not acting in a way that is contrary to holiness, etc.
And, no, I wouldn't reelect such a man, no matter how good of a job he did. At the same time, I likely wouldn't want to elect a holy man who couldn't do a good job. So there's that. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
6/27/18 11:15 am
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| The Reason for this Post |
FG Minister |
| I used a hypothetical about the GO because in another post I posited the notion that many of the Trump supporters on this board would support Trump no matter his bad behavior, as long as they got the political results they desired. As long as they get the wall, Jerusalem Embassy, lower taxes etc., they have been willing to excuse and look the other way on Mr. Trump's behavior. I like the results Mr. Trump is getting, but I do not and will not excuse his behavior. And no matter what results he brings in the next three years, if his behavior continues to be as juvenile and sophomoric as it is now, I will vote for the runner-up in the Republican nominating process and waste my vote. I am sick and tired of this vulgar and petty man as my president - no matter how much I like some of the results. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 875
6/27/18 1:35 pm
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| So.... |
4thgeneration |
Why didn't you just own that you don't like President Trump to begin with? Why dance around the whole idea of who calls him Christian and voted for him as president, pretending to be talking about the G.O.?
In my lifetime, Jimmy Carter is probably the closest to actually living out his Christianity while in office. And he was IMO a terrible president. I won't go into the many ways that his leadership weakness was obvious, and how that affected our nation terribly.
Some of the same people that now trash Trump because of his obvious flaws, also refused to vote for a Mormon, and made room for a second term of President Obama. Justify that. I can't. Again, we vote for a president, not a pastor.
Do I approve of Trump's language? No. Do I condone his past lifestyle? No. Do I believe that he is trying now to be a better man, husband, father, and a president that does the right thing? Yes. Is he saved? Ask God.
I for one, won't waste my vote and risk surrendering our nation back to people determined to eliminate God and any minuscule measure of morality that might be left. And I don't get people who would rather peacock around on their higher moral values and righteous standards, while making room for the unrighteous to be in authority in our nation.
And I don't have to pretend we're talking about the G.O. to state how I feel. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1602
6/27/18 3:52 pm
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| FG Minister...question |
Aaron Scott |
| FG Minister wrote: | | I used a hypothetical about the GO because in another post I posited the notion that many of the Trump supporters on this board would support Trump no matter his bad behavior, as long as they got the political results they desired. As long as they get the wall, Jerusalem Embassy, lower taxes etc., they have been willing to excuse and look the other way on Mr. Trump's behavior. I like the results Mr. Trump is getting, but I do not and will not excuse his behavior. And no matter what results he brings in the next three years, if his behavior continues to be as juvenile and sophomoric as it is now, I will vote for the runner-up in the Republican nominating process and waste my vote. I am sick and tired of this vulgar and petty man as my president - no matter how much I like some of the results. |
If you could know that a low-life (like Trump, say) would end abortion and homosexual marriage, while a very saintly president would not only NOT do these things, but lead us to defeat in war or the economy, would you still vote for the saintly person?
We have had a number of presidents that were cheaters (to name a few...FDR, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Clinton, Trump, etc. Most people would claim that in terms of doing what they were elected to do--namely, lead the country successfully, all did (the jury's still out on Trump). We might not agree with their policies, but we likely agreed with some of the things they did.
I have found that those who are against abortion, if given the opportunity to choose to have ALL abortions outlawed EXCEPT, say, abortions of babies that are without question terribly deformed and diseased...will say NO. No matter that they might, in so doing, save MILLIONS of children. Nope, nothing will do but ALL.
Now, if I KNEW that that anti-Christ would do all sorts of great things for us, but would still be the anti-Christ, no, I wouldn't go with it. But if I knew that we could have one of our best Church of God leaders in power, but he would make a total mess of things, I would...yeah, I'd probably vote for him anyway. But if he's Lutheran or whatever, no way.
I don't support all of Trump's actions. But the choice was really between him and Hillary, and I felt confident that despite her ability to certainly act more presidential, she would almost certainly take us the wrong way, I had to vote Trump. Period. Why don't you tell us how you voted, and how that worked for you (besides making you feel a bit superior to us knuckle-draggers--SMILE). |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
6/27/18 6:26 pm
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| Not That it Matters |
FG Minister |
It doesn't matter a hill of beans as to who I voted for. This argument is about behavior and Christians who defend Mr. Trump's boorish personality just because he gives them what they want. Regrettably, I voted for Donald J. Trump. I am a conservative. I have worked for one conservative Republican Senator and one conservative republican congressman. I am personal friends with our congressman who is a Trumpster extraordinaire. He is on TV all the time defending Trump. This congressman has spoken at my church. In addition, I was an invited guest to President Reagan's first inauguration and attended an inaugural ball.
Please don't tell anyone I am a liberal - they won't believe you! Neither will I!
But here's the difference - I am a Christian before I am a conservative republican. I teach that behavior matters to God, to your family, and to society. Mr. Trump is a poster child for bad behavior. Again, I am looking at behavior - not results. I like most of the results he has brought to America but Christians looking the other way or trying to explain away his conduct - that makes me sick. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 875
6/28/18 8:35 am
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| Re: Not That it Matters |
UncleJD |
| FG Minister wrote: | It doesn't matter a hill of beans as to who I voted for. This argument is about behavior and Christians who defend Mr. Trump's boorish personality just because he gives them what they want. Regrettably, I voted for Donald J. Trump. I am a conservative. I have worked for one conservative Republican Senator and one conservative republican congressman. I am personal friends with our congressman who is a Trumpster extraordinaire. He is on TV all the time defending Trump. This congressman has spoken at my church. In addition, I was an invited guest to President Reagan's first inauguration and attended an inaugural ball.
Please don't tell anyone I am a liberal - they won't believe you! Neither will I!
But here's the difference - I am a Christian before I am a conservative republican. I teach that behavior matters to God, to your family, and to society. Mr. Trump is a poster child for bad behavior. Again, I am looking at behavior - not results. I like most of the results he has brought to America but Christians looking the other way or trying to explain away his conduct - that makes me sick. |
All this and God is STILL using Trump. He seems to be using him more than he did the Bush's (as nice as they were, they had baby-murder in their hearts and blood on their hands). SCOTUS pick #2 is coming and it appears it is God ordained. David had some pretty deep character issues as I recall, I would NOT have wanted to be friends with him either. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3144
6/28/18 9:08 am
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| Re: Not That it Matters |
skinnybishop |
| FG Minister wrote: | It doesn't matter a hill of beans as to who I voted for. This argument is about behavior and Christians who defend Mr. Trump's boorish personality just because he gives them what they want. Regrettably, I voted for Donald J. Trump. I am a conservative. I have worked for one conservative Republican Senator and one conservative republican congressman. I am personal friends with our congressman who is a Trumpster extraordinaire. He is on TV all the time defending Trump. This congressman has spoken at my church. In addition, I was an invited guest to President Reagan's first inauguration and attended an inaugural ball.
Please don't tell anyone I am a liberal - they won't believe you! Neither will I!
But here's the difference - I am a Christian before I am a conservative republican. I teach that behavior matters to God, to your family, and to society. Mr. Trump is a poster child for bad behavior. Again, I am looking at behavior - not results. I like most of the results he has brought to America but Christians looking the other way or trying to explain away his conduct - that makes me sick. |
Quick question...In a presidential election, who would you vote for...Jimmy Carter or Donald Trump?
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Eddie Wiggins |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1055
6/28/18 9:21 am
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