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Two times God didn't heal...
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Post Two times God didn't heal... Aaron Scott
We remember that story of David's illegitimate son who died in infancy.

Then, you will recall that King Jeroboam sent his wife to the prophet Ahijah regarding their sick child, but the child died anyway.

In both of these cases, the sins of the fathers seemed to close heaven to their plight. That is, it seems that the way God punished these men was to allow their child to die.

That's OT, of course, but I wonder if it might be instructive in our debates regarding healing? While I argue that it is ALWAYS God's will to heal (IF IF IF we can touch Him in faith), there appear to be situations where men sabotage matters.

When someone comes to us for healing prayer, we should NOT blame them if they don't get healed...but at the same time, it behooves us to at least pay attention to this person's relationship with God. It might be that the life they are leading short circuits the healing that otherwise would have come.

AND we should look at ourselves. Just because we prayed for them, laid hands on them, anointed them with oil, and the such does NOT mean that we actually had healing faith. Of course, we don't want it to be our fault, and so we may point the finger at THEIR faith...or claim that it must not be God's will to heal.

I'm not trying to get into a debate on this (you know my position by now), but I would appreciate your comments on the deaths of these two children due to the father's sins. Does this play a role today in some cases?
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Post Nature Boy Florida
I don't think the OT is instructive in these cases.
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Post Re: Two times God didn't heal... FLRon
Aaron Scott wrote:
We remember that story of David's illegitimate son who died in infancy.

Then, you will recall that King Jeroboam sent his wife to the prophet Ahijah regarding their sick child, but the child died anyway.

In both of these cases, the sins of the fathers seemed to close heaven to their plight. That is, it seems that the way God punished these men was to allow their child to die.

That's OT, of course, but I wonder if it might be instructive in our debates regarding healing? While I argue that it is ALWAYS God's will to heal (IF IF IF we can touch Him in faith), there appear to be situations where men sabotage matters.

When someone comes to us for healing prayer, we should NOT blame them if they don't get healed...but at the same time, it behooves us to at least pay attention to this person's relationship with God. It might be that the life they are leading short circuits the healing that otherwise would have come.

AND we should look at ourselves. Just because we prayed for them, laid hands on them, anointed them with oil, and the such does NOT mean that we actually had healing faith. Of course, we don't want it to be our fault, and so we may point the finger at THEIR faith...or claim that it must not be God's will to heal.

I'm not trying to get into a debate on this (you know my position by now), but I would appreciate your comments on the deaths of these two children due to the father's sins. Does this play a role today in some cases?


Short answer is NO, neither case plays a role in why people are not being healed today. Because you are coming from the (false, IMO) premise that it is always God’s will to heal, you must continually search for a reason why when it doesn’t happen. Even a cursory look at the volume of Christians who die daily from all manner of diseases should tell you that God, in his Sovereignty, heals whom he chooses to heal. And yes, that is very hard for most to accept.
Like you, not looking for a debate, just making my thoughts known.
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4/19/18 1:19 pm


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Post Re: Two times God didn't heal... Old Time Country Preacher
FLRon wrote:
Aaron Scott wrote:
We remember that story of David's illegitimate son who died in infancy.

Then, you will recall that King Jeroboam sent his wife to the prophet Ahijah regarding their sick child, but the child died anyway.

In both of these cases, the sins of the fathers seemed to close heaven to their plight. That is, it seems that the way God punished these men was to allow their child to die.

That's OT, of course, but I wonder if it might be instructive in our debates regarding healing? While I argue that it is ALWAYS God's will to heal (IF IF IF we can touch Him in faith), there appear to be situations where men sabotage matters.

When someone comes to us for healing prayer, we should NOT blame them if they don't get healed...but at the same time, it behooves us to at least pay attention to this person's relationship with God. It might be that the life they are leading short circuits the healing that otherwise would have come.

AND we should look at ourselves. Just because we prayed for them, laid hands on them, anointed them with oil, and the such does NOT mean that we actually had healing faith. Of course, we don't want it to be our fault, and so we may point the finger at THEIR faith...or claim that it must not be God's will to heal.

I'm not trying to get into a debate on this (you know my position by now), but I would appreciate your comments on the deaths of these two children due to the father's sins. Does this play a role today in some cases?


Short answer is NO, neither case plays a role in why people are not being healed today. Because you are coming from the (false, IMO) premise that it is always God’s will to heal, you must continually search for a reason why when it doesn’t happen. Even a cursory look at the volume of Christians who die daily from all manner of diseases should tell you that God, in his Sovereignty, heals whom he chooses to heal. And yes, that is very hard for most to accept.
Like you, not looking for a debate, just making my thoughts known.


Too late, Ron, you’ve already said enough. It won’t be long until someone in the Acts Woffie Camp calls you either “J-Mack” or a “MacArthur-ite.”
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Post FLRon... Aaron Scott
FLRon wrote:
Aaron Scott wrote:
We remember that story of David's illegitimate son who died in infancy.

Then, you will recall that King Jeroboam sent his wife to the prophet Ahijah regarding their sick child, but the child died anyway.

In both of these cases, the sins of the fathers seemed to close heaven to their plight. That is, it seems that the way God punished these men was to allow their child to die.

That's OT, of course, but I wonder if it might be instructive in our debates regarding healing? While I argue that it is ALWAYS God's will to heal (IF IF IF we can touch Him in faith), there appear to be situations where men sabotage matters.




When someone comes to us for healing prayer, we should NOT blame them if they don't get healed...but at the same time, it behooves us to at least pay attention to this person's relationship with God. It might be that the life they are leading short circuits the healing that otherwise would have come.

AND we should look at ourselves. Just because we prayed for them, laid hands on them, anointed them with oil, and the such does NOT mean that we actually had healing faith. Of course, we don't want it to be our fault, and so we may point the finger at THEIR faith...or claim that it must not be God's will to heal.

I'm not trying to get into a debate on this (you know my position by now), but I would appreciate your comments on the deaths of these two children due to the father's sins. Does this play a role today in some cases?


Short answer is NO, neither case plays a role in why people are not being healed today. Because you are coming from the (false, IMO) premise that it is always God’s will to heal, you must continually search for a reason why when it doesn’t happen. Even a cursory look at the volume of Christians who die daily from all manner of diseases should tell you that God, in his Sovereignty, heals whom he chooses to heal. And yes, that is very hard for most to accept.
Like you, not looking for a debate, just making my thoughts known.



I hear you and thank you for your kind spirit.

One of my issues with the WOD'ers (Word of Doubters) is that they ignore that vast evidence that Jesus and the apostles had ENORMOUS success in praying for the sick...and instead seek to find any exception they can, claiming that it somehow "proves" that God doesn't want to heal everyone.

But what they don't do is say, "However, from the scriptures, it seems that it is God's will to heal a WHOLE LOT MORE THAN ARE BEING HEALED!"

You never hear that. No, their faith is perfect before God (of course!), and it God doesn't heal it's not due to THEIR lack of faith...nope, it's God's fault. "I prayed a mighty and powerful prayer of faith that, had I not carefully worded it, would have raised up every single sick person on earth because of my mighty faith...but God wanted this person sick--and the last 200 I prayed for too--so that's why it didn't happen."

Facetious, yes. True? Pretty much.

My point is that if the other side would at least acknowledge that it is, most of the time, something besides the will of God that a person be sick, we could have some agreement. Instead, nope--every single person that I pray for that stays sick? God's will.
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4/20/18 10:43 am


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Post Cojak
Just my opinion, but the lack of miracles might have to do with the times. Normally if we Christians start having symptoms on Monday or Tuesday we will first try some drugstore or home remedy. We may even go to an urgent care unit with our Ins. Card. THEN if nothing works we will possibly call for the elders of the church (or a phone call to the pastor). But a SERIOUS TALK with the Lord is usually the last ditch effort, just being honest here.

There was a time the average COG member had little money and NO INSURANCE. Prayer was FIRST! I only pastored 6 years, but followed my dad's suggestions. I never carried Ins and always depended on prayer. It worked for us, looking back. That is not necessarily true now, to my shame. Embarassed
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Post Re: FLRon... Old Time Country Preacher
Aaron Scott wrote:

One of my issues with the WOD'ers (Word of Doubters) is that they ignore that vast evidence that Jesus and the apostles had ENORMOUS success in praying for the sick...and instead seek to find any exception they can, claiming that it somehow "proves" that God doesn't want to heal everyone.

But what they don't do is say, "However, from the scriptures, it seems that it is God's will to heal a WHOLE LOT MORE THAN ARE BEING HEALED!"

You never hear that. .


Since OTCP is one of the "WOD'-ers" of which Aaron speaks, not that I am a Word of Doubter, but that is what Aaron has called me, I believe it would be germane for me to speak.

Here goes, Aaron, "there is vast evidence that Jesus and the apostles had ENORMOUS success praying for the sick." Yes, I believe this to be true. And I believe it to be true because of what the Bible states in John 20:30-31, "The disciples saw Jesus do many other miraculous signs in addition to the ones recorded in this book. But these are written so that you may continue to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing in him you will have life by the power of his name."

Jesus' ministry of healing was first, foremost and primarily soteriological in nature. The physical healings wrought by Christ served as validation of his messianic claims. They in no way suggested that God would physically heal 100% of the time, nor that it was promised he would do such a thing.
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Post diakoneo
Cojak wrote:
Just my opinion, but the lack of miracles might have to do with the times. Normally if we Christians start having symptoms on Monday or Tuesday we will first try some drugstore or home remedy. We may even go to an urgent care unit with our Ins. Card. THEN if nothing works we will possibly call for the elders of the church (or a phone call to the pastor). But a SERIOUS TALK with the Lord is usually the last ditch effort, just being honest here.

There was a time the average COG member had little money and NO INSURANCE. Prayer was FIRST! I only pastored 6 years, but followed my dad's suggestions. I never carried Ins and always depended on prayer. It worked for us, looking back. That is not necessarily true now, to my shame. Embarassed


Yes and this has a lot to do with the frequency of miracles in believing third world countries. Not necessarily the "amount" of faith as some have claimed.
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Post Cojak... Aaron Scott
Cojak wrote:
Just my opinion, but the lack of miracles might have to do with the times. Normally if we Christians start having symptoms on Monday or Tuesday we will first try some drugstore or home remedy. We may even go to an urgent care unit with our Ins. Card. THEN if nothing works we will possibly call for the elders of the church (or a phone call to the pastor). But a SERIOUS TALK with the Lord is usually the last ditch effort, just being honest here.

There was a time the average COG member had little money and NO INSURANCE. Prayer was FIRST! I only pastored 6 years, but followed my dad's suggestions. I never carried Ins and always depended on prayer. It worked for us, looking back. That is not necessarily true now, to my shame. Embarassed



That's a very good point. Indeed, I think the issue is OUR faith--whether we are the sick person or the person praying for the sick.
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Post OTCP...cessationist??? Aaron Scott
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
Aaron Scott wrote:

One of my issues with the WOD'ers (Word of Doubters) is that they ignore that vast evidence that Jesus and the apostles had ENORMOUS success in praying for the sick...and instead seek to find any exception they can, claiming that it somehow "proves" that God doesn't want to heal everyone.

But what they don't do is say, "However, from the scriptures, it seems that it is God's will to heal a WHOLE LOT MORE THAN ARE BEING HEALED!"

You never hear that. .


Since OTCP is one of the "WOD'-ers" of which Aaron speaks, not that I am a Word of Doubter, but that is what Aaron has called me, I believe it would be germane for me to speak.

Here goes, Aaron, "there is vast evidence that Jesus and the apostles had ENORMOUS success praying for the sick." Yes, I believe this to be true. And I believe it to be true because of what the Bible states in John 20:30-31, "The disciples saw Jesus do many other miraculous signs in addition to the ones recorded in this book. But these are written so that you may continue to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing in him you will have life by the power of his name."

Jesus' ministry of healing was first, foremost and primarily soteriological in nature. The physical healings wrought by Christ served as validation of his messianic claims. They in no way suggested that God would physically heal 100% of the time, nor that it was promised he would do such a thing.



OTCP, that is basically the SAME argument that cessationists use! "Miracles and wonders were done because God was establishing the church and/or the Bible was being written. But at some point, healing and miracles were no longer needed...."

Now, OTCP, I know you are not a cessationist. But let's take your statement of : "This in no way suggested that God would physically heal 100% of the time." OK, let's assume that is true (which I don't believe, but still).... We go from 100% healing to, maybe, 10%? MAYBE??? If that???

Let me ask you OTCP, when is it YOUR fault that a person you pray for doesn't get healed. Can you at least give me some vague approximation of the percentage it is NOT GOD'S WILL TO HEAL...and how many didn't get healed because their faith--or your faith--was insufficient?

Why can it be that it is God's will that ALL be saved (even though all are NOT saved), but it's just unthinkable, apparently, that it would be God's will to heal ALL?

Notice that just because it is God's will to heal ALL does not mean that all get healed (just as with salvations). Why can't that be the standard, since from the scriptures, the ONLY PLACE where Jesus could "do there no mighty work" was a place where (one of only two times He ever marvelled) He marvelled at the unbelief?
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Post Re: OTCP...cessationist??? Old Time Country Preacher
Aaron Scott wrote:
You are correct, Aaron, OTCP is not a cessationist. I do not believe miracles ended with the apostles, and I do indeed believe our God heals today

Let me ask you OTCP, when is it YOUR fault that a person you pray for doesn't get healed. Can you at least give me some vague approximation of the percentage it is NOT GOD'S WILL TO HEAL...and how many didn't get healed because their faith--or your faith--was insufficient? Your obsession with percentages is interesting, not sure where that originates. I can't give you a percentage regarding God's will to heal physically in this life, because I'm not God. 100% are healed, either in this life or the next. Living in the eschatological tension of the church age (the already/not yet), healings do indeed occur, but not everyone is healed. Why? We are experiencing a little taste of the powers of the world to come--the not yet. When that time comes, 100% of all sickness will be eradicated.

Why can it be that it is God's will that ALL be saved (even though all are NOT saved), but it's just unthinkable, apparently, that it would be God's will to heal ALL? Because there is no blank check promise in Scripture that guarantees 100% physical healing in this life.

Notice that just because it is God's will to heal ALL does not mean that all get healed (just as with salvations). Why can't that be the standard, since from the scriptures, the ONLY PLACE where Jesus could "do there no mighty work" was a place where (one of only two times He ever marvelled) He marvelled at the unbelief?We read it once in the NT, so sometimes this is true. If we gonna go by your percentages, we read of it only once, so here is a very small percentage that didn't get healed cause of unbelief. Accordingly, based on your percentages, the vast majority of the time this ain't the reason.
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Post Re: OTCP...cessationist??? Aaron Scott
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
Aaron Scott wrote:
You are correct, Aaron, OTCP is not a cessationist. I do not believe miracles ended with the apostles, and I do indeed believe our God heals today

Let me ask you OTCP, when is it YOUR fault that a person you pray for doesn't get healed. Can you at least give me some vague approximation of the percentage it is NOT GOD'S WILL TO HEAL...and how many didn't get healed because their faith--or your faith--was insufficient? Your obsession with percentages is interesting, not sure where that originates. [It originates with YOUR statement that God is not willing to heal 100% of the time.] I can't give you a percentage regarding God's will to heal physically in this life, because I'm not God. 100% are healed, either in this life or the next. Living in the eschatological tension of the church age (the already/not yet), healings do indeed occur, but not everyone is healed. Why? We are experiencing a little taste of the powers of the world to come--the not yet. When that time comes, 100% of all sickness will be eradicated.

Why can it be that it is God's will that ALL be saved (even though all are NOT saved), but it's just unthinkable, apparently, that it would be God's will to heal ALL? Because there is no blank check promise in Scripture that guarantees 100% physical healing in this life.

Nor is there a blank check promise in Scripture that guarantees 100% of the people getting saved...yet we believe that God wants EVERYONE to be saved? Why the double standard?



Notice that just because it is God's will to heal ALL does not mean that all get healed (just as with salvations). Why can't that be the standard, since from the scriptures, the ONLY PLACE where Jesus could "do there no mighty work" was a place where (one of only two times He ever marvelled) He marvelled at the unbelief?We read it once in the NT, so sometimes this is true. If we gonna go by your percentages, we read of it only once, so here is a very small percentage that didn't get healed cause of unbelief. Accordingly, based on your percentages, the vast majority of the time this ain't the reason.


No, I claim that the vast majority of the time (all of the time?) that it is OUR faith that is the fault. I simply believe that there are SOME things that God will not do unless we have faith. At other times, He may just choose to do it anyway, but when there is unbelief, there are surely some things that God does not do. That is, our lack of faith means that we are not going to get what we want from the Lord.
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Post Re: OTCP...cessationist??? Old Time Country Preacher
Aaron Scott wrote:

I claim that the vast majority of the time (all of the time?) that it is OUR faith that is the fault.



An while I love ya as a brother in Christ and respect ya fer servin the Lord in ministry, I absolutely disagree 100% with the above assessment.
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Post Dare I do it? Mark Ledbetter
Should I bring up Lazarus again?

Jesus purposefully delayed His going to Lazarus to give ample time for his close friend to die, knowing Lazarus' resurrection would give God more glory than through his healing.

There was design and purpose in Jesus' not healing.

James seems to suggest in some cases there is a correlation between sin and sickness, as does Paul (James 5:14-16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30).

For some, repentance might clear the way for healing.

For Lazarus, however, no amount of prayer and intercession was sufficient. What ever ailment it was a "sickness unto death" (Like Elisha, 2 Kings 13:14, see also 1 John 5:16).

Often, when someone dies and not healed, we might hear, "He/she received their ultimate healing." That's a nice expression but it isn't true.

Death is death. Life in the physical realm is over. The bodies are left to decay and return to dust. True, the dead receive relief from their sick bodies, but they aren't healed.

Surgeons may cut something out to prohibit further damage, but that isn't healing.

Remission is not renewal.

Does God heal? Yes! Fourteen years after being diagnosed with Parkinson's, a local pastor's wife is healed. Twenty plus days without any symptoms. Prayer went up for 14 years and when the symptoms got worse, suddenly she woke up "normal".

Why does God heal some and not others? Why would He delay healing for 14 years? Why would Jesus not heal Lazarus? God knows and unless He reveals it to us, we don't know.

There was a young man dying from aids, having contracted the HIV in a blood transfusion. Prayer went up continuously for his healing while we watched the disease ravage his body. What was his sin - nothing? Tragic results of accidental medical procedure.

Near the end of last days I was laying in his floor praying, while others were pleading the blood, claiming healing, etc. While on the floor the Lord spoke to my heart saying, "Unless you can trust Me with your death, you can't trust me with your life."

Tommy died and a glorious memorial service honoring God was held.

While pastoring the same church I witnessed God straighten the spine of a young teen girl suffering from severe curvature of the spine.

There was a preacher visiting the sick in the hospital tell them if they had faith they'd be healed. Same preacher later died from cancer.

Regardless of our circumstances the ultimate issue is our faithfulness - faithfulness through trials and temptations. Those who endure to the end shall be saved.
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Post Re: OTCP...cessationist??? Nature Boy Florida
Aaron Scott wrote:
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
Aaron Scott wrote:
You are correct, Aaron, OTCP is not a cessationist. I do not believe miracles ended with the apostles, and I do indeed believe our God heals today

Let me ask you OTCP, when is it YOUR fault that a person you pray for doesn't get healed. Can you at least give me some vague approximation of the percentage it is NOT GOD'S WILL TO HEAL...and how many didn't get healed because their faith--or your faith--was insufficient? Your obsession with percentages is interesting, not sure where that originates. [It originates with YOUR statement that God is not willing to heal 100% of the time.] I can't give you a percentage regarding God's will to heal physically in this life, because I'm not God. 100% are healed, either in this life or the next. Living in the eschatological tension of the church age (the already/not yet), healings do indeed occur, but not everyone is healed. Why? We are experiencing a little taste of the powers of the world to come--the not yet. When that time comes, 100% of all sickness will be eradicated.

Why can it be that it is God's will that ALL be saved (even though all are NOT saved), but it's just unthinkable, apparently, that it would be God's will to heal ALL? Because there is no blank check promise in Scripture that guarantees 100% physical healing in this life.

Nor is there a blank check promise in Scripture that guarantees 100% of the people getting saved...yet we believe that God wants EVERYONE to be saved? Why the double standard?



Notice that just because it is God's will to heal ALL does not mean that all get healed (just as with salvations). Why can't that be the standard, since from the scriptures, the ONLY PLACE where Jesus could "do there no mighty work" was a place where (one of only two times He ever marvelled) He marvelled at the unbelief?We read it once in the NT, so sometimes this is true. If we gonna go by your percentages, we read of it only once, so here is a very small percentage that didn't get healed cause of unbelief. Accordingly, based on your percentages, the vast majority of the time this ain't the reason.


No, I claim that the vast majority of the time (all of the time?) that it is OUR faith that is the fault. I simply believe that there are SOME things that God will not do unless we have faith. At other times, He may just choose to do it anyway, but when there is unbelief, there are surely some things that God does not do. That is, our lack of faith means that we are not going to get what we want from the Lord.


Aaron,
Why didn't God give you enough faith to be healed everytime?
Why did he select some to have that faith - but not you?
If it is His will every time - wouldn't the commensurate amount of faith be given, as well?
Or do you believe God is just theoretical only - he wants to heal every time - but he didn't bother to give out enough faith everytime - so it is really just a semantic sleight of hand game that God is playing - wouldn't you agree?

OR

Do you believe if you had done a certain amount of spiritual calisthenics - works if you will - you would have enough faith to be healed everytime? Are their works that you haven't done - that you could have done - and that is why you don't have enough faith - but lets not call it faith anymore - because it was really the WORKS that got you enough faith to be healed everytime?

Let me know which camp you are in so I can address more fully.
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Post Re: OTCP...cessationist??? Aaron Scott
Aaron,
Why didn't God give you enough faith to be healed everytime?
Why did he select some to have that faith - but not you?
If it is His will every time - wouldn't the commensurate amount of faith be given, as well?


NBF, did the Apostles have that sort of faith? Or at least the sort of faith that saw far more miracles that we see? I think so. But if so, why would we imagine that it can't be like that for us? I want God to increase my faith. I don't have nearly enough. I do believe it is God's will to heal every time. At the same time, I believe there are some things He will do eventually...that He will not do immediately.

There are many things lacking in me when I see myself in the mirror of the Word. The sort of faith I speak of is one of those things that I lack. I simply believe, though, that if the Apostles had such faith, we can have it too. It's far more than I have...but I do aspire to it.





Or do you believe God is just theoretical only - he wants to heal every time - but he didn't bother to give out enough faith everytime - so it is really just a semantic sleight of hand game that God is playing - wouldn't you agree?

NBF, we believe that it is God's will to save every time, don't we? We know that in Nazareth/Galilee, Jesus could do not great work there. Why? Because of THEIR unbelief. That tells me that there are things that don't happen...because of OUR unbelief.

Many things get done even we have no faith. God just does it because He's good. But SOME THINGS, I believe, come only by having true faith. Do you remember when Jesus scolded the disciples because they had not been able to handle a boy that was possessed? It was THE DISCIPLES that didn't have faith. All we can do at times is cry out what the father cried out, "I believe, but help Thou mine unbelief."





OR

Do you believe if you had done a certain amount of spiritual calisthenics - works if you will - you would have enough faith to be healed everytime? Are their works that you haven't done - that you could have done - and that is why you don't have enough faith - but lets not call it faith anymore - because it was really the WORKS that got you enough faith to be healed everytime?

I don't believe it is based in works. I simply find it hard to have faith in the face of some conditions. I believe the gift of faith is the divine empowerment to have faith for any condition, whether it's a sprained ankle or stage 4 cancer.


Let me know which camp you are in so I can address more fully.

I'm still in the "I believe God is willing to heal everyone" camp. I wish I could say otherwise, since it would be far easier to claim that my ineffective prayers for someone's healing was due to God's will. Basing it on the record we have of the Apostles, I cannot help but believe that, though I don't possess such faith, we should be seeing a whole lot miracles. Again, even if I spot you that not everyone is healed, we still have to account for why the Apostles' record of healings is in such marked contrast to our own.
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4/23/18 7:42 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
Aaron,

You are kind of all over the place with your beliefs here.

But - based on your last sentences - you seem to believe we stop God from performing His will by not having enough faith. God has a Will to do something - but we are continually thwarting it by our lack of faith - as God has turned over ALL healings to us and the amount of faith we exercise (or don't exercise) in every situation.

Is that correct?
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4/24/18 7:34 am


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Post NBF... Aaron Scott
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
Aaron,

You are kind of all over the place with your beliefs here.

But - based on your last sentences - you seem to believe we stop God from performing His will by not having enough faith. God has a Will to do something - but we are continually thwarting it by our lack of faith - as God has turned over ALL healings to us and the amount of faith we exercise (or don't exercise) in every situation.

Is that correct?


No. I believe that God always retains His sovereignty. However, you will remember that on multiple occasions Jesus would say, "O, ye of little faith." The implication was that THEY could have done whatever needed to be done.

If God chooses to heal someone, I'm sure He can get it done it whether anyone prays for that person or not. My claim is NOT that God will ALWAYS heal. Rather, my claim is that is always God's WILL to heal.

We know that God is NOT WILLING that any should perish...yet some perish anyway. The context of this unwillingness is that God would save everyone...if everyone would come to Him for salvation.

I believe it the same way for healing. God is WILLING to heal anyone would comes to him in faith. Does everyone come in faith? No. Do some get healed anyway? Sure. God is sovereign. But there are some things that don't go out except by prayer and fasting (in other words, some sort of spiritual separation that causes one's faith to build).

I can't tell you how many times I've prayed and someone would later say, "I feel so much better," or something. And I'm thinking, "That didn't have anything to do with me--because the effectiveness of my prayers and faith were just about zero." And God has healed me at times "just because," it seems.

But NBF, don't base your argument on MY paltry knowledge and beliefs about this matter. Base it on the Word of God. We have "some 'splaning to do" when it comes to understanding why we are not seeing the same sort of effectiveness as the early church when it comes to healing. Was God more willing to heal then? Did they have greater faith? WHAT?

THAT is what you have to confront--NOT my views on the matter. Again, even if I agreed that God wasn't willing to heal everyone, we still have to try to understanding why, even if He didn't heal everyone in NT times, He seemed to heal SO MANY MORE than we see!

For me, the answer was that our faith is not in the same place as theirs. You may have another view, and I would like to hear it. But so far, I have not seen any arguments from others that can shed any light on why God seemed to do it then so much more than now. It seems it's either cessation...or my view. Maybe both are wrong, but surely, if we are going to preach and believe in divine healing, we are going to have see something more than what seems no better than random recoveries.
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4/24/18 11:13 am


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Post Nature Boy Florida
Sorry Aaron.

I know what God's word says.

I am trying to understand what you believe. I still don't think you have clarified it to yourself - much less me.

So now you say that God DOES have a will that supersedes man's faith - you called it sovereignty - so if he wants someone to be healed - He heals them - no matter whether they had faith or not.

Actually, I agree with that belief. I believe that is the type of healing that Christ demonstrated on earth - if he was ready to heal - he healed all of them - big faith, small faith, no faith - if he wanted to heal - he healed them all. Man never stopped him from accomplishing His will. After all He is Christ. One gets to be the potter - everyone else is the clay. How often does the clay tell the potter how he will be used?

And while he chastised disciples for little faith - he usually then went and did the miracle they didn't do, isn't that right?

While there was one city that he didn't do many miracles because of their unbelief - that wasn't normative for the gospels was it? Perhaps there was something else He was trying to teach there.

So - if you believe he sovereignly does what He wills - then man doesn't have the control of him by their faith. Man's faith takes a back seat to his sovereignty - is that what you believe? Again trying to understand what you believe here. Have I got it right now?
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4/24/18 1:26 pm


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Post NBF... Aaron Scott
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
Sorry Aaron.

I know what God's word says.

I am trying to understand what you believe. I still don't think you have clarified it to yourself - much less me.

So now you say that God DOES have a will that supersedes man's faith - you called it sovereignty - so if he wants someone to be healed - He heals them - no matter whether they had faith or not.

Actually, I agree with that belief. I believe that is the type of healing that Christ demonstrated on earth - if he was ready to heal - he healed all of them - big faith, small faith, no faith - if he wanted to heal - he healed them all. Man never stopped him from accomplishing His will. After all He is Christ. One gets to be the potter - everyone else is the clay. How often does the clay tell the potter how he will be used?

And while he chastised disciples for little faith - he usually then went and did the miracle they didn't do, isn't that right?

While there was one city that he didn't do many miracles because of their unbelief - that wasn't normative for the gospels was it? Perhaps there was something else He was trying to teach there.

So - if you believe he sovereignly does what He wills - then man doesn't have the control of him by their faith. Man's faith takes a back seat to his sovereignty - is that what you believe? Again trying to understand what you believe here. Have I got it right now?





NBF, consider what would have happened if Jesus had not taken charge when the disciples could not handle the situation I mentioned. Do you think that if Jesus hadn’t decided to heal the boy, he would have been healed anyway? Of course not. AND YET if the disciples HAD HAD the right level of spiritual power, it is clearly implied that the boy would have been healed without having to call Jesus to take over (so to speak).

This is something your side of the debate has to deal with. For it means that there seem to be cases where GOD would heal...if only there was the appropriate level of faith. If this is indeed the case, then that means that there are likely times when someone doesn’t get healed, NOT because God is unwilling, but because men were lacking the sort of faith needed for the situation.
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4/30/18 5:51 pm


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