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 Was I living a fantasy? |
Resident Skeptic |
Have any of you ever looked back at your life and wondered that?
No, I'm not talking about the reality of God and salvation. I'm taking about our perception of "ways of God".
We Pentecostals are grounded in a belief that the Christian experience should operate within Biblical norms found in the narrative in Acts. Unlike our cessationist brethren, we believe that a Christian can be led of the Spirit for the direction his life is supposed to take. In other words, we are a people of expectation while other non-Pentecostal can sometimes go to the other extreme of believing God for nothing but salvation by grace.
But are we right? Understand, I'm not talking about WoF nonsense, that sufficient faith is the key to moving the hand of God, etc.
Like many Pentecostal youth, I thought I felt the call to ministry and went to 4 years of Bible college, Since graduating in 1988, what have I done? I've spent my entire life working low skilled, decent paying jobs. I've never benefited from my degree that I can tell. I've NEVER really felt like I was mentored by the 5 pastors I've had since 1988, nor have any of them ever encouraged me to seek full-time ministry. Oh yes, they helped me get a license from the district board, but that was it. I've talked to scores of other who share a similar experience.
For all these years I've felt a nagging that something was not right. And now the thing I feared has come upon me. In 2000 I started becoming successful in network marketing. By 2004 I was making between 50-60 grand a year and became a stay-home dad in 2005. I really prayed about this. I felt these incredible checks I was getting every week were an answer to prayer for me to be a self funded missionary. We planned on selling our home in 2009 and getting out of Dodge. Instead of saving allot, we put our money into improving our home for the sale. We all know what happened in 2008.
By 2010 my MLM income had dripped to 30 grand a year. So we sold our home and moved into my mom's place after she passed away in February of that year. My pastor of 17 years kindly helped me examine the prosand cons of that decision. His concern was that we were severing ties with those we our support base. Due to the housing crash really did not even break-even on our house.
After 2 years at my mom's my MLM income vanished forever. I put in one application after another, on-line of course. In short, I've subsisted on Sub-teaching since.
In late 2016 my 2 sisters (co-owners of my mom's place with me) demanded that we sell. One of them "felt called" to move to Colorado to go to Andrew Womack's school. She lasted 6 months, blowing through her 20 grand cut from the sale of the property, and had to return home. The sell of an asset has made it nearly impossible to get any assistance, and we most likely will lose our daughter's state health insurance in a few days because of this. Having to leave my mom's place forced us to have to move in with my dad. Driving an hour to sub for 10 bucks an hour is out of the question. The county we live in now required certain education that I did not have just to sub! My 11 years experience was not considered (though I just completed the courses they required). So last year we also blew through most of our money from the land sale. My sister.....UUGGHH!!
Long story short...................I struggle now wondering if much of what I thought was God's direction since 2000 was really nothing but chance. Why did it seem he brought that MLM to me out of the blue? I will not go into all the details, but it really seemed miraculous and my motives were pure. So maybe some can understand that I am really tempted now to wonder if the Baptist are right. Get saved, be a good Christian, and don't expect much else by way of divine intervention.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
3/16/18 10:50 am
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Dave Dorsey |
Just a quick observation. Your post seems to be saying that you have in the past believed God leads us through direct personal revelation, and now you are wondering if He even leads His people at all. I believe that is a false dichotomy. Likewise, I believe it is a false dichotomy to propose that one must choose to believe in a God who intervenes and supernaturally delivers according to our expectations and a God from whom you should not expect much in the way of divine intervention.
Both total cessationists and full-on continuationists believe God leads His people. You cannot believe the Word of God without also believing that God leads His people. So the question is not whether the Spirit leads God's people -- ALL who are led by the Spirit are sons of God (Romans 8:14) -- the question is, what is the means through which He accomplishes this purpose.
You mentioned you felt a nagging for several years that something was not right. Could you talk more about that? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
3/16/18 11:26 am
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wayne |
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Last edited by wayne on 3/23/18 8:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1274
3/16/18 11:49 am
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| Re: Was I living a fantasy? |
Resident Skeptic |
| wayne wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | Have any of you ever looked back at your life and wondered that?
No, I'm not talking about the reality of God and salvation. I'm taking about our perception of "ways of God".
We Pentecostals are grounded in a belief that the Christian experience should operate within Biblical norms found in the narrative in Acts. Unlike our cessationist brethren, we believe that a Christian can be led of the Spirit for the direction his life is supposed to take. In other words, we are a people of expectation while other non-Pentecostal can sometimes go to the other extreme of believing God for nothing but salvation by grace.
But are we right? Understand, I'm not talking about WoF nonsense, that sufficient faith is the key to moving the hand of God, etc.
Like many Pentecostal youth, I thought I felt the call to ministry and went to 4 years of Bible college, Since graduating in 1988, what have I done? I've spent my entire life working low skilled, decent paying jobs. I've never benefited from my degree that I can tell. I've NEVER really felt like I was mentored by the 5 pastors I've had since 1988, nor have any of them ever encouraged me to seek full-time ministry. Oh yes, they helped me get a license from the district board, but that was it. I've talked to scores of other who share a similar experience.
For all these years I've felt a nagging that something was not right. And now the thing I feared has come upon me. In 2000 I started becoming successful in network marketing. By 2004 I was making between 50-60 grand a year and became a stay-home dad in 2005. I really prayed about this. I felt these incredible checks I was getting every week were an answer to prayer for me to be a self funded missionary. We planned on selling our home in 2009 and getting out of Dodge. Instead of saving allot, we put our money into improving our home for the sale. We all know what happened in 2008.
By 2010 my MLM income had dripped to 30 grand a year. So we sold our home and moved into my mom's place after she passed away in February of that year. My pastor of 17 years kindly helped me examine the prosand cons of that decision. His concern was that we were severing ties with those we our support base. Due to the housing crash really did not even break-even on our house.
After 2 years at my mom's my MLM income vanished forever. I put in one application after another, on-line of course. In short, I've subsisted on Sub-teaching since.
In late 2016 my 2 sisters (co-owners of my mom's place with me) demanded that we sell. One of them "felt called" to move to Colorado to go to Andrew Womack's school. She lasted 6 months, blowing through her 20 grand cut from the sale of the property, and had to return home. The sell of an asset has made it nearly impossible to get any assistance, and we most likely will lose our daughter's state health insurance in a few days because of this. Having to leave my mom's place forced us to have to move in with my dad. Driving an hour to sub for 10 bucks an hour is out of the question. The county we live in now required certain education that I did not have just to sub! My 11 years experience was not considered (though I just completed the courses they required). So last year we also blew through most of our money from the land sale. My sister.....UUGGHH!!
Long story short...................I struggle now wondering if much of what I thought was God's direction since 2000 was really nothing but chance. Why did it seem he brought that MLM to me out of the blue? I will not go into all the details, but it really seemed miraculous and my motives were pure. So maybe some can understand that I am really tempted now to wonder if the Baptist are right. Get saved, be a good Christian, and don't expect much else by way of divine intervention. |
Sir,
I think what you are dealing with, is something all men deal with. When things get to going rough we sit and think, what if? You can continue to second guess all you want but it's not going to help.
Like all men, you are going to have to make the tough decisions and do things that you may not want to do in order to get you and your family back on your feet.
God is the same all the time. Does your wife work? What will you gain with the degree you are currently seeking? Is it worth it to continue with this degree?
Wayne
(859)283-2500 |
I feel I have a better chance at my age 52 with this type of degree than without.
Face it. My age is now a factor in truck driving and all the other types of jobs I used to do. Retail is fine tempoarily, but I may as well resign myself to working every Sunday and letting go of ministry. Is that really God's will?
We have one working vehicle, so my wife does not work out of home. She makes a few hundred dollars a month selling clothing online. She could expand that if we had more spece. Living with my dad limits what she can do.
So again, I feel I'm rolling the dice either way. Degree, allot of debt, but a higher chance at full-time income. No degree, a 12 k income until I retire in abject poverty.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
3/16/18 1:41 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | Just a quick observation. Your post seems to be saying that you have in the past believed God leads us through direct personal revelation, and now you are wondering if He even leads His people at all. I believe that is a false dichotomy. Likewise, I believe it is a false dichotomy to propose that one must choose to believe in a God who intervenes and supernaturally delivers according to our expectations and a God from whom you should not expect much in the way of divine intervention.
Both total cessationists and full-on continuationists believe God leads His people. You cannot believe the Word of God without also believing that God leads His people. So the question is not whether the Spirit leads God's people -- ALL who are led by the Spirit are sons of God (Romans 8:14) -- the question is, what is the means through which He accomplishes this purpose.
You mentioned you felt a nagging for several years that something was not right. Could you talk more about that? |
I guess the bottom line is that if he was leading me, I missed it. Why would God put my family through this for so long otherwise? I've apologized to God countless times for the ruin I've led my family to. I accept responsibility. That self abasing also makes it hard to believe God will ever trust me with blessings again. Eight years is plenty of time and nothing has changed. I really don't blame God. I just assume I'm too dense to hear clearly from him any more. Now do I REALY believe all of this? No. But it sure is tempting.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
3/16/18 1:49 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | I guess the bottom line is that if he was leading me, I missed it. Why would God put my family through this for so long otherwise? I've apologized to God countless times for the ruin I've led my family to. I accept responsibility. That self abasing also makes it hard to believe God will ever trust me with blessings again. |
What is your theology of suffering? Because though God's will and desire for us is clearly expressed in Christ, the fulfillment of that desire is often much more eschatological than any of us would like. We are heirs of God and fellow heirs of Christ, provided, Paul says, we suffer with Him -- in order that we may also be glorified with Him.
Did God lead you into this suffering and desire it for you? That is an unproductive question, and regardless of the answer, the fact remains: you are suffering, and despite what many teach, your experience is not unusual for this world that we live in. Paul takes it as a fact that we will suffer, and encourages us to suffer with Christ. I understand your suffering has been great, and I will not pretend that I can empathize with it, nor will I be so arrogant as to presume that some theological concept will make it better. I know that it won't. But I do know that Christ will -- in this life, in hope, and possibly reality; and in reality for sure in the world to come.
I can't relate to your suffering, but Paul can. And following his statement about the inevitability of suffering in Romans 8:17, he begins to consider that suffering in an eschatological context and concludes that as bad as it is, it is not even worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed in us. He paints a grim picture of who we are on this side of Heaven: sons of God desperate to be revealed as such, on the one hand having received the firstfruits of the Spirit, on the other, waiting and groaning for our adoption as sons and for the redemption of our bodies. We may see shadows and glimpses of that redemption in this life as the firstfruits of our inheritance, but we will see it for sure in the world to come, and Paul says that is the hope in which we were saved. It is not a hope that is seen -- it is a hope that we do not see, but wait for with patience.
He has not left us without comfort in this state. He goes onto say that the Spirit helps us in our weakness, making perfect intercession for us according to the will of God. While we suffer He works; He sustains us and upholds us and strengthens us and works in us according to God's will. And THAT is why we can then conclude that despite this mess, despite this suffering, ALL things work together for our good, because we are called according to HIS purpose, and He is working and fulfilling and completing that purpose in us to His glory.
You said that the guilt makes it difficult to believe God will trust you with blessings again. But God's blessings toward you are not dependent on your work, and they are not compromised by your failures. They are the products of Christ's work, and they are eternally yours in Him.
With respect, I think you have internalized a lot more of the health and wealth gospel than you realize. The Bible does not promise that God will lead us around or out of suffering. It doesn't speak to the issue, except to say that we will suffer, and that when we do, we should take comfort in the hope that we have in Him, a God who is for us, so that no one can be against us. A God who did not spare His own son but graciously gave Him up for us all, and will also with Him graciously give us all things. Nothing can or will separate us from Him -- not distress, or famine, or nakedness, or anything else in all of creation. Though we may feel we are being killed all the day long and regarded as sheep to be slaughtered, we are more than conquerers through Him who loved us. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
3/16/18 2:26 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Dave Dorsey wrote: | Just a quick observation. Your post seems to be saying that you have in the past believed God leads us through direct personal revelation, and now you are wondering if He even leads His people at all. I believe that is a false dichotomy. Likewise, I believe it is a false dichotomy to propose that one must choose to believe in a God who intervenes and supernaturally delivers according to our expectations and a God from whom you should not expect much in the way of divine intervention.
Both total cessationists and full-on continuationists believe God leads His people. You cannot believe the Word of God without also believing that God leads His people. So the question is not whether the Spirit leads God's people -- ALL who are led by the Spirit are sons of God (Romans 8:14) -- the question is, what is the means through which He accomplishes this purpose.
You mentioned you felt a nagging for several years that something was not right. Could you talk more about that? |
I guess the bottom line is that if he was leading me, I missed it. Why would God put my family through this for so long otherwise? I've apologized to God countless times for the ruin I've led my family to. I accept responsibility. That self abasing also makes it hard to believe God will ever trust me with blessings again. Eight years is plenty of time and nothing has changed. I really don't blame God. I just assume I'm too dense to hear clearly from him any more. Now do I REALY believe all of this? No. But it sure is tempting. |
Res, you & I are friends off this board as well as on it.
You have not missed the mark.
Every success & every pot-hole is part of God's infrastructure for your life.
For example, God doesn't have to use you in pulpit ministry just because you graduate with honors at age 25 with a degree in theology. God might use you at 55 & place you as a chaplain at the Fire Dept ...one never knows.
It doesn't mean we stop dreaming or that we don't try to become something better. Life sure does take a lot of detours.
You might have to be a bus boy at Applebee's along the way ...only God knows.
I've been a pastor of a very large church in the past & I've seen things change & all of a sudden I'm at a church that has a lot of hurdles & struggles.
We just have to remember that in whatever condition I am in, to be there content (Phil. 4)
...God hasn't slapped His forehead wondering where He put you!
He knows the plans He has for you & His plans will be fulfilled in His perfect time.
We all go through these events in life.
I'm a little older than you but I too ask God sometimes, 'what's up with where I'm at?'
Praying for you & asking God to give you the answer you need & the peace you seek.
Dean
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_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
3/16/18 2:44 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
RS,
It's time to think outside the box.
You describe being trapped with no way out.
Look for jobs in other cities - look for something you haven't thought of.
Bigger city = more opportunities.
Look for a place you and your wife can both work at.
Maybe one of the massive Amazons - opportunity to get promoted. Be workers on a cruise ship - or Bermuda...look for something DIFFERENT! Work at Disney World - they have housing available for workers.
Perhaps a church has a small house in a new city - you could rent until you can get your own... or be the maintenance man at an apartment complex - get free housing.
If you follow God's will - a door WILL open up. But don't tell God what His will is. Let him show you - but don't limit him to the current world you know.
If God doesn't allow you to minister - that's His choice. If He wants you to - He will have to work it out. But - you must have a decent job and hope for the future. It is not too much to ask.
You must be willing to be the best worker - not looking for a place that will take care of you. If you want that - apply in California - tell them you are part Indian like Pocahontas. Get a govt job.
LOOK FOR SOMETHING DIFFERENT!
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
3/16/18 2:57 pm
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| Re: Was I living a fantasy? |
Quiet Wyatt |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Have any of you ever looked back at your life and wondered that? |
Yes. Usually it was a times of a real personal and/or career crisis.
One time in particular really stands out in my memory. I had at the time done all I knew to “get into the ministry,†by which I mean, ministry as a full-time career. After 15 years of being a bivocational minister, my sideline job, which had always been one in which I could earn a decent living, began to diminish markedly in its money-making potential, due to market forces and technological advancement that were quite beyond my control. A job where I had formerly been able to make $20 to $25 an hour as a self-employed contractor working on my computer at home suddenly became, at best, a $10 an hour nightmare. On top of that, the part-time ministry job I had working at the church I LOVED was also going away due to an economic downturn. In desperation, I faced the reality that I would no longer be able to support my wife and two young children, who were 2-1/2 and 6 months of age, respectively.
After several days of feeling as if I would lose my mind, I “put out a fleece,†so to speak. I had been told by a good friend of a small church in another state that had been without a pastor for three months. After sending my resume and doing a phone interview, my wife and I were being voted on by the church. I had completely resolved in my heart and mind that if it were God’s will for me to be in the ministry, then this one vote would tell the tale. If we did not get the vote, I was ready to accept that it was not God’s will for me to pastor at all. I would completely stop wasting my time pursuing ministry as a career, and would focus all my time and talent into finding a career in which I could provide for my own household, lest I be worse than an infidel, and deny the faith. I would just be as good a church member as I could be, and would only pursue ‘lay ministries’ from then on. I would just chalk up to sincere mistakenness my perception of having been called to be a pastor.
I believe the Lord answered. We were elected unanimously by the church. I still have primarily been bivocational, but in any case, the Lord has always provided for us one way or another.
I see the Lord’s personal leading in our lives as very similar to how faith works in general. We don’t have absolute proof, but we have sufficient evidence from which to be persuaded that God exists and is a Rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. When we are faced with doubt due to difficulties, we can look back to specific times in our lives when God’s providence and specific leadership in our lives was undeniable. We see through a glass darkly. Our faith is not yet sight. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
3/16/18 2:59 pm
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