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Council of Eighteen
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Post Dean Steenburgh
Da Sheik wrote:
I literally spend no amount of time thinking about who sits on any given council. If the state or international offices ceased to exist today, there would be zero net impact on our local church. We would still be accountable to one another and support home and foreign missions. I have been saying for many years that it’s time to trim the fat and invert the pyramid. The problem is that those who have the power to do so have very little incentive to do so.



I totally agree with this statement & I do so without a pen-name.
All the offices could fold tomorrow but FCC wouldn't close - we're not dependent on the system to keep us alive praise the Lord!
As to the initial post for this thread, it's always been a popularity contest, it's the same even at the state level with your elected state board members.
I don't remember the last time we elected any new board members here in our state.
Not saying we don't elect a different member every 2 years but it's usually someone who had to go off for 2 years & they just trade places.
I have never tried to get elected but I have voted many times for new blood while just hoping for a batch of board members to get a wholesale look at what fresh ideas might look like.
I'm afraid it will not happen any time soon at the state or 'federal' (lol) level.


.
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3/16/18 1:32 pm


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Post skinnybishop
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
Da Sheik wrote:
I literally spend no amount of time thinking about who sits on any given council. If the state or international offices ceased to exist today, there would be zero net impact on our local church. We would still be accountable to one another and support home and foreign missions. I have been saying for many years that it’s time to trim the fat and invert the pyramid. The problem is that those who have the power to do so have very little incentive to do so.



I totally agree with this statement & I do so without a pen-name.
All the offices could fold tomorrow but FCC wouldn't close - we're not dependent on the system to keep us alive praise the Lord!
As to the initial post for this thread, it's always been a popularity contest, it's the same even at the state level with your elected state board members.
I don't remember the last time we elected any new board members here in our state.
Not saying we don't elect a different member every 2 years but it's usually someone who had to go off for 2 years & they just trade places.
I have never tried to get elected but I have voted many times for new blood while just hoping for a batch of board members to get a wholesale look at what fresh ideas might look like.
I'm afraid it will not happen any time soon at the state or 'federal' (lol) level.


.


Same here, in terms if HQ. Non factor for our church. If they folded tomorrow, we wouldn't know or be impacted.
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3/16/18 1:43 pm


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Post Dean Steenburgh
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
sheepdogandy wrote:
Our bylaws give authority to officers and janitorial and maintenance folks for expenditures.

Why even I with all of my power can only spend so much before obtaining permission. Very Happy


Exactly, so the process is to some degree centralized. You have the authority to spend a certain amount. No one in Cleveland has the authority or power to spend without limits.


Nobody in Cleveland huh??
I wonder who in Cleveland gave the authority to spend $17 million on a HQ remodel that the GC only approved for $10 million?
I heard lots of him-haw going on about why it cost this much & why it cost that much!
But never heard a distinct, authoritative response to justify the expenditure.

Seems to me that if I shot past my church building fund budget by 70% & didn't seek approval there might be some issues to deal with.
So yessir, it seems like somebody in Cleveland had the authority to spend an extra $7 million over & above the $10 million they were given.
I wonder if there were any relatives in the remodel biz that ended up getting preferred treatment with their bid ...hmmmmm???


.
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3/16/18 2:06 pm


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Post Cojak
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
sheepdogandy wrote:
Our bylaws give authority to officers and janitorial and maintenance folks for expenditures.

Why even I with all of my power can only spend so much before obtaining permission. Very Happy


Exactly, so the process is to some degree centralized. You have the authority to spend a certain amount. No one in Cleveland has the authority or power to spend without limits.


Nobody in Cleveland huh??
I wonder who in Cleveland gave the authority to spend $17 million on a HQ remodel that the GC only approved for $10 million?
I heard lots of him-haw going on about why it cost this much & why it cost that much!
But never heard a distinct, authoritative response to justify the expenditure.

Seems to me that if I shot past my church building fund budget by 70% & didn't seek approval there might be some issues to deal with.
So yessir, it seems like somebody in Cleveland had the authority to spend an extra $7 million over & above the $10 million they were given.
I wonder if there were any relatives in the remodel biz that ended up getting preferred treatment with their bid ...hmmmmm???


.


OUCH, I hear crickets!


The answer must be, "Okay maybe ONCE, Small over sight. It won't happen again, we fixed it!"

Smile
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3/16/18 8:47 pm


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Post Voice cogcia
As a pastor in a small state I thought we were the only ones that felt like we had no voice or value. We support a structure that is more about power than mission. Power and politics is the mission it seems. Everytime we hear a committee team tell how we are growing we wonder have they ever looked at the real numbers in our state. Friendly Face
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3/16/18 9:54 pm


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Post Mat
Cojak wrote:
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
sheepdogandy wrote:
Our bylaws give authority to officers and janitorial and maintenance folks for expenditures.

Why even I with all of my power can only spend so much before obtaining permission. Very Happy


Exactly, so the process is to some degree centralized. You have the authority to spend a certain amount. No one in Cleveland has the authority or power to spend without limits.


Nobody in Cleveland huh??
I wonder who in Cleveland gave the authority to spend $17 million on a HQ remodel that the GC only approved for $10 million?
I heard lots of him-haw going on about why it cost this much & why it cost that much!
But never heard a distinct, authoritative response to justify the expenditure.

Seems to me that if I shot past my church building fund budget by 70% & didn't seek approval there might be some issues to deal with.
So yessir, it seems like somebody in Cleveland had the authority to spend an extra $7 million over & above the $10 million they were given.
I wonder if there were any relatives in the remodel biz that ended up getting preferred treatment with their bid ...hmmmmm???


.


OUCH, I hear crickets!


The answer must be, "Okay maybe ONCE, Small over sight. It won't happen again, we fixed it!"

Smile


It must have been A. J. Tomlinson's fault. That seems to be the answer for every other issue in the Church of God.

Mat
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3/17/18 7:08 am


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Post sheepdogandy
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
sheepdogandy wrote:
Our bylaws give authority to officers and janitorial and maintenance folks for expenditures.

Why even I with all of my power can only spend so much before obtaining permission. Very Happy


Exactly, so the process is to some degree centralized. You have the authority to spend a certain amount. No one in Cleveland has the authority or power to spend without limits.


My authority is checked by the Church Conference.

The boys in Cleveland do what they want and you know it.

There is no real or effective representation for the members of the local congregations.

I know, I have been there and done that. Rolling Eyes

Oh yeah, I can spend a whopping $200.00 and even then I am ACCOUNTABLE!
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3/17/18 12:11 pm


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Post Ben Gates
SouthFlordaman, you seem to really dislike the COG. Why in the world are you a part of it. It doesn't make much sense to be a part of something and then talk about how much you dislike it and how corrupt it is so much.


SouthFloridaman wrote:
Book deal with pathway press or some other company is the only way I can think you can get the notoriety to be voted on. One of the main ways Bryan Cutshall got to denominational power was his book deals. Why do you think general and assistant generals all try to pump out books. It is so when pathway run that full page resource ad in the evangel the book is featured with a face and name of the author.

Reality check, even if you do make it to the council you are still checkmated by the embalance of officials to pastors. The power dynamics is slant towards the system of the church of God. I question the power structure how is an state overseer or local church pastor both serving on the council of 18 going to raise a voice if something happens. They can’t the state overseer is checkmated by the general and assistant general. Meaning if they go against them they get no appointment. The local church pastor is checkmated by the state overseer. Meaning if the local pastor speaks out a hit can come from the top of the organization to take out the local pastor if the state overseer does not comply with the hit that state official receives no appointment. The cog doctrine is great it is the polity that is broken. The church of God’s polity functions as a cult of government. I wish our government was as good as the doctrine we have.
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3/20/18 1:19 am


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Post SouthFloridaman
Ben Gates wrote:
SouthFlordaman, you seem to really dislike the COG. Why in the world are you a part of it. It doesn't make much sense to be a part of something and then talk about how much you dislike it and how corrupt it is so much.


SouthFloridaman wrote:
Book deal with pathway press or some other company is the only way I can think you can get the notoriety to be voted on. One of the main ways Bryan Cutshall got to denominational power was his book deals. Why do you think general and assistant generals all try to pump out books. It is so when pathway run that full page resource ad in the evangel the book is featured with a face and name of the author.

Reality check, even if you do make it to the council you are still checkmated by the embalance of officials to pastors. The power dynamics is slant towards the system of the church of God. I question the power structure how is an state overseer or local church pastor both serving on the council of 18 going to raise a voice if something happens. They can’t the state overseer is checkmated by the general and assistant general. Meaning if they go against them they get no appointment. The local church pastor is checkmated by the state overseer. Meaning if the local pastor speaks out a hit can come from the top of the organization to take out the local pastor if the state overseer does not comply with the hit that state official receives no appointment. The cog doctrine is great it is the polity that is broken. The church of God’s polity functions as a cult of government. I wish our government was as good as the doctrine we have.


I love the COG. I want to fix the COG. I don’t hate it. I have been hurt to the core by our organization. We have a CULT of GOVERNMENT that needs to be FIXED. Local pastors are the life blood of the COG and have little voice or protection. Then members of local church almost have no voice unless it is politically advantageous to the government. As dean said on another post we have a relationship problem in the church of God.
Dean Steenburgh wrote:

The CoG has a relationship problem! They have a problem from the top down. Nobody wants to face it & nobody wants to talk about it for fear of losing their little church.
Have you ever noticed it's usually big churches who leave?
We talk about having close fellowship but at times it seems we only have back slappers who want to know your tithe & attendance in case they can wiggle in some how.
I can't help but ask, isn't a real ministry of relational leaders led by trust? Cause it sure seems like trust is something that is missing in the CoG.



We don’t know who we can trust from the local pastor on up. We are dysfunctional because of our system all I am doing is asking is there a better way. Sorry if I offend but questions are how people get answers the Bible even says ASK SEEK KNOCK. If I offend I ask forgiveness.
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3/20/18 1:55 am


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Post Re: Council of Eighteen skinnybishop
cogcia wrote:
To be elected you have to come from a large state where you are well known. That is understandable. How does a Indiana, GLR, Missouri, Kansas, New Mexico, Illinois, Minnesota etc ever get heard. AB’s will only talk about how great everything is going in their state publicly, but pastors know the truth. Pastors We deal with the issues even after the ABs have moved on. Many pastors are afraid the be vocal because their job and ministry will be in jeopardy. Honestly I use a pin name because I’ve been threatened and told to Be quite if I wanted to make it to retirement. We will never be represented on the Council of 18. We are never heard. Our AB vote has no value. A low vote means we keep them. A good vote means we lose them. How do the smaller states ever get a voice?


We have a Council of 18?
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3/21/18 10:45 am


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Post Wayne JLarry
Quote:
Let me say how sad this post sounds. To have the feeling that you are not heard and to say that someone told you to shut up if you want it to make it to retirement is insane!
I'm not sure what you were saying for them to say that to you but I have to ask why this denomination and those people have so much power over you?
Seriously, get rid of these chains of bondage and start enjoying your walk and your ministry. Let me know what I can do to help.


Wayne I had an AB tell me the only thing he had against me was I was on Actsclerate.
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3/21/18 1:49 pm


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Post Re: Wayne wayne
....

Last edited by wayne on 3/29/18 3:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post Representing cogcia
Was talking to a pastor from another denomination today about representation in Denominational leadership. He ask want percentage of COG churches in the US are 100 or less. My guess was 80%. He ask who represents them and the Bi-vocational pastors? My response was no one I know of. We have no requirement to insure representation. We elect AB’s and pastors of large churches but none from the average size churches. I appreciate large church pastors, but know their experiences are different than most of ours. They need to be represented, but so do the most of us. Is it possible to do that since no one knows our names? Same as leaders from the smaller states. They are unknown except in their state. We have an amazingly successful pastor in Colorado, but is not know to most COG pastors. All of our leadership comes from about 8 states. Friendly Face
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3/21/18 2:12 pm


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Post Re: Representing MrSippi
cogcia wrote:
Was talking to a pastor from another denomination today about representation in Denominational leadership. He ask want percentage of COG churches in the US are 100 or less. My guess was 80%. He ask who represents them and the Bi-vocational pastors? My response was no one I know of. We have no requirement to insure representation. We elect AB’s and pastors of large churches but none from the average size churches. I appreciate large church pastors, but know their experiences are different than most of ours. They need to be represented, but so do the most of us. Is it possible to do that since no one knows our names? Same as leaders from the smaller states. They are unknown except in their state. We have an amazingly successful pastor in Colorado, but is not know to most COG pastors. All of our leadership comes from about 8 states.


The "amazingly successful" pastor in Colorado has the same name as another "amazingly successful" pastor in Alabama. I know them both and they both laugh about the fact that they will probably neither end up on the council of 18 because of it. I don't think that either are really concerned about it.
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3/21/18 5:25 pm


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
Cojak wrote:
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
sheepdogandy wrote:
Our bylaws give authority to officers and janitorial and maintenance folks for expenditures.

Why even I with all of my power can only spend so much before obtaining permission. Very Happy


Exactly, so the process is to some degree centralized. You have the authority to spend a certain amount. No one in Cleveland has the authority or power to spend without limits.


Nobody in Cleveland huh??
I wonder who in Cleveland gave the authority to spend $17 million on a HQ remodel that the GC only approved for $10 million?
I heard lots of him-haw going on about why it cost this much & why it cost that much!
But never heard a distinct, authoritative response to justify the expenditure.

Seems to me that if I shot past my church building fund budget by 70% & didn't seek approval there might be some issues to deal with.
So yessir, it seems like somebody in Cleveland had the authority to spend an extra $7 million over & above the $10 million they were given.
I wonder if there were any relatives in the remodel biz that ended up getting preferred treatment with their bid ...hmmmmm???


.


OUCH, I hear crickets!


The answer must be, "Okay maybe ONCE, Small over sight. It won't happen again, we fixed it!"

Smile



No crickets.

No one person in Cleveland had the authority or made the decision to spend the money. When you git 2/3 a they way through a building project, what do you do? Leave it undone? Or, finish it.
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3/21/18 8:14 pm


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Post Cojak
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:



No crickets.

No one person in Cleveland had the authority or made the decision to spend the money. When you git 2/3 a they way through a building project, what do you do? Leave it undone? Or, finish it.


It is called leadership, intelligence and a lot of knowledge. I built hundreds of buildings, I knew from the beginning the MOST, ANY PROJECT would cost, or I would not have started it. MY FRIEND SOMEONE KNEW this was going to be a massive over run from the gitgo or they had the wrong contractor.

Had I failed to meet a cost or deadline I WOULD HAVE PAID OR WENT BROKE! the project displayed a lack of checks and balances.

I have friends who build shopping centers, if they cannot meet the step by step checks and balances they do not get paid.

It was a BIG JOB, yes, but on the scale of construction it was just another job.

YES! it happens, buildings sit unfinished because someone did not count the cost. But that is ONLY when there is not a cash kitty that someone knows can be tapped. Evidently someone KNEW there was a cash Kitty and they signed the checks anyway.

I have no idea if anyone fell on their sword because of mismanagement For agreeing to a project that could NOT POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN COMPLETED AT THE PRICE QUOTED.

If the original price was logical compared to the other bids taken then someone mismanaged or took kickbacks. They should pay for it. That is business. Cost overruns are very seldom over 10-12%.

Anyway someone OVERSPENT! There is supposed to be a place where the BUCK stops. That is where ONE MAN does the over spending!

Embarassed Embarassed
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3/21/18 9:52 pm


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Post Mat
Cojak wrote:
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:



No crickets.

No one person in Cleveland had the authority or made the decision to spend the money. When you git 2/3 a they way through a building project, what do you do? Leave it undone? Or, finish it.


It is called leadership, intelligence and a lot of knowledge. I built hundreds of buildings, I knew from the beginning the MOST, ANY PROJECT would cost, or I would not have started it. MY FRIEND SOMEONE KNEW this was going to be a massive over run from the gitgo or they had the wrong contractor.

Had I failed to meet a cost or deadline I WOULD HAVE PAID OR WENT BROKE! the project displayed a lack of checks and balances.

I have friends who build shopping centers, if they cannot meet the step by step checks and balances they do not get paid.

It was a BIG JOB, yes, but on the scale of construction it was just another job.

YES! it happens, buildings sit unfinished because someone did not count the cost. But that is ONLY when there is not a cash kitty that someone knows can be tapped. Evidently someone KNEW there was a cash Kitty and they signed the checks anyway.

I have no idea if anyone fell on their sword because of mismanagement For agreeing to a project that could NOT POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN COMPLETED AT THE PRICE QUOTED.

If the original price was logical compared to the other bids taken then someone mismanaged or took kickbacks. They should pay for it. That is business. Cost overruns are very seldom over 10-12%.

Anyway someone OVERSPENT! There is supposed to be a place where the BUCK stops. That is where ONE MAN does the over spending!

Embarassed Embarassed


Perhaps the Counsel of 18 should hold a trial of the principle leaders responsible for the cost overrun and revoke their ministry. They might want to take them to civil court and "claw back" some of their personal income from during the project.

Mat
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3/22/18 7:06 am


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Post Nature Boy Florida
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
Cojak wrote:
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
sheepdogandy wrote:
Our bylaws give authority to officers and janitorial and maintenance folks for expenditures.

Why even I with all of my power can only spend so much before obtaining permission. Very Happy


Exactly, so the process is to some degree centralized. You have the authority to spend a certain amount. No one in Cleveland has the authority or power to spend without limits.


Nobody in Cleveland huh??
I wonder who in Cleveland gave the authority to spend $17 million on a HQ remodel that the GC only approved for $10 million?
I heard lots of him-haw going on about why it cost this much & why it cost that much!
But never heard a distinct, authoritative response to justify the expenditure.

Seems to me that if I shot past my church building fund budget by 70% & didn't seek approval there might be some issues to deal with.
So yessir, it seems like somebody in Cleveland had the authority to spend an extra $7 million over & above the $10 million they were given.
I wonder if there were any relatives in the remodel biz that ended up getting preferred treatment with their bid ...hmmmmm???


.


OUCH, I hear crickets!


The answer must be, "Okay maybe ONCE, Small over sight. It won't happen again, we fixed it!"

Smile



No crickets.

No one person in Cleveland had the authority or made the decision to spend the money. When you git 2/3 a they way through a building project, what do you do? Leave it undone? Or, finish it.


There were so many millions flowing through Cleveland, you couldn't expect anyone to be able to keep track, could you?

Let's face it - a million bucks was taken by one dude for GA "expenses" - and nobody knew till years later.
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Post Old Time Country Preacher
Maybe the entire Council of 18 approved the extra expenditure, just like a state council at times, when necessary, approves expenditures to complete something already invested in. Acts-pert Poster
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3/22/18 10:56 am


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Post Mat
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
Maybe the entire Council of 18 approved the extra expenditure, just like a state council at times, when necessary, approves expenditures to complete something already invested in.


The "maybe" could be a possibility, perhaps there are Council minutes available to document such an approval.

An audit could be useful - how about using Lee A. Battle Audit Company out of Chattanooga. Some in the COG got what wanted with them.

Mat
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3/22/18 11:22 am


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